The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

Blake Griffin · Aug 6, 2017

Jamturk said:
An interesting angle, but aren't these players being introduced at lower calibre football clubs?

Clubs that don't have ambitions of challenging for a top4 place.

which then goes back to the point of are spurs really the best club for young players to be at? naturally clubs at the lower end of the tree are going to be giving more chances to these players than those at the top so maybe we need to look more towards loans or forming relationships with other clubs/managers to help in this regard. i'm sure liverpool have ambitions of challenging for a top 4 place(and higher) but klopp seems to have no issue in giving his young rb the chance to establish himself in the absence of the more senior option for example but it seems we're not confident of doing the same.

mpickard2087 · Aug 6, 2017

Cornpattbuck said:
To me all it's sounded like is Poch throwing out a challenge to Onomah ("He can be anything he wants to be but needs to realise how good he is..." basically) and looking to protect KWP ("People shouldn't expect too much... he's still got a lot to learn..." basically).

Neither of those comments are any different from what plenty of our youth watchers have said so it's strange he'd get beaten about them.

I think the loan for Onomah could be the making of him - the moment he finds his 'character' in the men's game. Fingers crossed.

My interpretation of things is that Poch may well think Onomah is a very talented kid, but as it stands he just doesn't believe that's as a central midfielder in one of his teams which is why he's tried him further up the pitch - he wants him to find a role there that can suit him. Onomah would have to do something extraordinary this season with Villa to change Poch's mind about that is my suspicion, and that's if he even plays there...

I'd also be worried about the circumstances of how this has happened. It seems Poch got badgered about this until he eventually just went 'ok, go on loan'. Now we know Poch requires 100% buy-in, and if you don't have that belief and commitment and unquestioning loyalty that can be end the for you... He could very easily not be impressed about this and it have caused Onomah some damage.

Cornpattbuck · Aug 6, 2017

mpickard2087 said:
My interpretation of things is that Poch may well think Onomah is a very talented kid, but as it stands he just doesn't believe that's as a central midfielder in one of his teams which is why he's tried him further up the pitch - he wants him to find a role there that can suit him. Onomah would have to do something extraordinary this season with Villa to change Poch's mind about that is my suspicion, and that's if he even plays there...

I'd also be worried about the circumstances of how this has happened. It seems Poch got badgered about this until he eventually just went 'ok, go on loan'. Now we know Poch requires 100% buy-in, and if you don't have that belief and commitment and unquestioning loyalty that can be end the for you... He could very easily not be impressed about this and it have caused Onomah some damage.

Maybe, but I'm not sure that would have gone hand in hand with the contract extension etc. Guess we'll see.

mpickard2087 · Aug 6, 2017

Cornpattbuck said:
Maybe, but I'm not sure that would have gone hand in hand with the contract extension etc. Guess we'll see.

We routinely do that though with players who get loaned out. So if they impress out on loan then we don't have to worry about a contract running down when they come back, we can use them or cash in if there is interest.

Spurzinho · Aug 6, 2017

THFCSPURS19 said:
Yes he has - Winks - I don't know how anyone can argue that isn't the case.

As my post makes clear Winks was very nearly 21 by the time he got a chance. That is NOT straight out of the academy. Straight out of the academy would be someone 17 or 18.

THFCSPURS19 · Aug 6, 2017

Spurzinho said:
As my post makes clear Winks was very nearly 21 by the time he got a chance. That is NOT straight out of the academy. Straight out of the academy would be someone 17 or 18.

1. You're being quite pedantic. Winks didn't go out on loan, and has been at the club for a long time. The Development Squad/U23s is basically the Academy.
2. I don't think Pochettino can be criticised for not trusting 17/18 year-olds in his first team.

LukaKranjcar · Aug 6, 2017

I suspect its also a ploy to force Levy's hand.

Cornpattbuck · Aug 6, 2017

Spurzinho said:
As my post makes clear Winks was very nearly 21 by the time he got a chance. That is NOT straight out of the academy. Straight out of the academy would be someone 17 or 18.

I may well be imagining this (!) but I'm sure I read something a few years ago that stated our youth policy was generally to develop fully rounded players ready for the first team at 21/22 rather than heap pressure on them mentally and physically earlier. Can't for the life of me remember where I read it though. Probably at 2am after a couple of bottles of wine......

P.s. Pretty sure this was pre-Poch too, for what it's worth.

Spurzinho · Aug 6, 2017

THFCSPURS19 said:
1. You're being quite pedantic. Winks didn't go out on loan, and has been at the club for a long time. The Development Squad/U23s is basically the Academy.
2. I don't think Pochettino can be criticised for not trusting 17/18 year-olds in his first team.

Its not pedantism, it is entirely substantive to my point. I have stood up for Poch many a time and questioned CCV & Onomah's readiness to play for us but we must also be clear about what we mean when we talk of giving youth a chance. Winks was not a fresh faced young thing who's precocious ability was nurtured by Poch, Winks laboured in the U23s for seasons on end, maturing into a young man physically and mentally. Promoting young men from the U23s is very pleasing and progressive but it is not the same as trusting the "youth".

THFCSPURS19 · Aug 6, 2017

Spurzinho said:
Its not pedantism, it is entirely substantive to my point. I have stood up for Poch many a time and questioned CCV & Onomah's readiness to play for us but we must also be clear about what we mean when we talk of giving youth a chance. Winks was not a fresh faced young thing who's precocious ability was nurtured by Poch, Winks laboured in the U23s for seasons on end, maturing into a young man physically and mentally. Promoting young men from the U23s is very pleasing and progressive but it is not the same as trusting the "youth".

I don't see how a 20-year old Winks (at the time) shouldn't be considered part of the 'youth' but whatever floats your boat.

panoma · Aug 6, 2017

Is it possible that most our youth players simply aren't good enough? CCV and Onomah for instance have never looked particularly good in any of their senior games, while Edwards looked good against both Valerenga last pre season and against Gillingham in the cup. Winks might be good enough, but he could also end up like Mason (very unlucky timing on the injury for Winks). The one great success is Kane is recent years.

If we look at other youth products like Caulker, Pritchard, Mason, Carroll, Bentaleb, Livermore, Bostock, Stewart and many more they have all gone on to have fine careers, but none would improve our current side.

I guess what I'm getting at is do we get to recruit the top talent around, or do they get picked up by the money teams and we're left with the "second best"? Or is our coaching at youth Level not good enough to get the best out of the players? Or do none really have the required skill level so we are ok with just producing "fine" players that we can make a profit on?

I only watch the odd youth game at Liverpool or Manchester United TV, but i do watch every senior match that's televised somewhere (including every pre season game), so my information mostly comes from the that so I'd greatly appreciate the opinion from the more knowledgable youth watchers.

beats1 · Aug 6, 2017

panoma said:
Is it possible that most our youth players simply aren't good enough? CCV and Onomah for instance have never looked particularly good in any of their senior games, while Edwards looked good against both Valerenga last pre season and against Gillingham in the cup. Winks might be good enough, but he could also end up like Mason (very unlucky timing on the injury for Winks). The one great success is Kane is recent years.

If we look at other youth products like Caulker, Pritchard, Mason, Carroll, Bentaleb, Livermore, Bostock, Stewart and many more they have all gone on to have fine careers, but none would improve our current side.

I guess what I'm getting at is do we get to recruit the top talent around, or do they get picked up by the money teams and we're left with the "second best"? Or is our coaching at youth Level not good enough to get the best out of the players? Or do none really have the required skill level so we are ok with just producing "fine" players that we can make a profit on?

I only watch the odd youth game at Liverpool or Manchester United TV, but i do watch every senior match that's televised somewhere (including every pre season game), so my information mostly comes from the that so I'd greatly appreciate the opinion from the more knowledgable youth watchers.

Onomah is a player who has constantly being played out of position in his senior games, so its harsh to say he hasnt looked good whilst overlooking that fact

Our players in the academy are some of the most talented players we have had but they found opportunities harder than the class you mentioned. You mention Harry Kane is our only success but you overlooking Rose. If Sherwood never brings back Rose and forces him on Harry, Rose wouldn't be here today and wouldn't be the best LB in the PL. His career at best would have gone like berchiche, who left us for the third tier of the spanish league before now playing for PSG.

The same goes for Kane, it was said that Levy wanted Sherwood to play Soldado over Kane at the end of his 6 months as Soldado was a £26m player whom we wanted to come good or at least get some money back on. Now if hadn't he had a run in the team people would say he is a player who struggled in the championship and who has struggled with the first team every senior appearance. The same is true of onomah, has been sent out to give Sissoko another chance?

The funny thing is, the people who are criticising CCV were the same people who said Veljkovic isn't good enough and that CCV is better after the U20 WC. If you keep supporting the next big thing and the switch to the new next thing, just as that player gets to the stage when they are about to step up, no one will make it.

Bus-Conductor · Aug 6, 2017

coys200 said:
Forget wanyama ? We have 4 established CM .chelsea currently have 3 on their books.Arsenal have xhaka/elneny.Liverpool can/henderson.I really would be complaining about our 4 CMs.
As for KWP sure some of this has got lost in translation.For me that long paragraph says he's not ready to be 1st choice say if trippier was out for months,but he is ready to fill in.

Wanyama's injured, Dembele has a had constant injury issues and isn't getting any younger, and doesn't pass the ball quickly, Dier is a poor CM who can't move with the ball, his passing is insipid and by numbers and even as a DM he can't press the ball very well because he's turned so easily, so his default is invariably to drop off, sink backwards and drag the game back with him and as much as I like facets of Winks, he's metronomic and gets his head up, I think he has some issues defensively.

Onomah is the only CM we could potentially develop who can actually do a bit of everything quite well, some things very well. He reads the game well, he tackles, he has a game picture in his head and doesn't play with his head down he can pass with both feet and when he gets forward he can be incisive.

Lilbaz · Aug 6, 2017

LukaKranjcar said:
I suspect its also a ploy to force Levy's hand.

Or maybe we are close to signing a rb?

Bus-Conductor · Aug 6, 2017

St José Dominguez said:
If we sign a RB I hope we send KWP out on loan. It's a complete waste of time keeping him around the training ground now. He's 20, he has to be playing first team football somewhere or he'll never make it.

Personally I wanted us to be signing a new RB but it is a bit weird. Considering how much Poch likes to promote youth I thought there was a big chance KWP would be back up. He's just won U20 World Cup and those quotes are almost insulting to him. He's clearly a big prospect with a lot of talent, I don't see why he'd give Shaw and Chambers a chance but not him.

See, this gets said a lot on here and in the media, but it's a bit of a fallacy IMO. There isn't a single player who is still here and/or established in our first team that has been promoted by Poch. That's not to say it can't happen, but it hasn't happened yet.

Bus-Conductor · Aug 6, 2017

Spurzinho said:
I wrote a big long post but quite frankly my thoughts could be summed in in the words "Very disappointed".

Onomah, KWP or both ?

Bus-Conductor · Aug 6, 2017

Jamturk said:
A badly timed introduction of youth can be just as bad if not worse than playing them at all. If you care about your players you don't just throw them into the premier league especially if you don't feel they're ready.

Again, I think this is one of football's hackneyed fallacies. Can't think of too many careers that have been ruined by a badly timed introduction. For every one of those there must be about 300 whose careers have been ruined by not being given proper chances.(or any).

Either PL coaches are not very good judges of what denotes ready or European kids are much better players. Evidence suggests the former, and domestic teams from France, Spain and Germany and their international teams would seem to support that.

Bus-Conductor · Aug 6, 2017

THFCSPURS19 said:
Yes he has - Winks - I don't know how anyone can argue that isn't the case.

Maybe when he's had more than what 3 PL starts out of 38 in a season people will acknowledge his been properly "promoted" by Poch ?

It might not be Poch's fault if Winks doesn't become established, but while he's choosing to play other possibly less viable combinations constantly it's hard to argue that right now.

Blake Griffin · Aug 6, 2017

panoma said:
Is it possible that most our youth players simply aren't good enough? CCV and Onomah for instance have never looked particularly good in any of their senior games, while Edwards looked good against both Valerenga last pre season and against Gillingham in the cup. Winks might be good enough, but he could also end up like Mason (very unlucky timing on the injury for Winks). The one great success is Kane is recent years.

If we look at other youth products like Caulker, Pritchard, Mason, Carroll, Bentaleb, Livermore, Bostock, Stewart and many more they have all gone on to have fine careers, but none would improve our current side.

I guess what I'm getting at is do we get to recruit the top talent around, or do they get picked up by the money teams and we're left with the "second best"? Or is our coaching at youth Level not good enough to get the best out of the players? Or do none really have the required skill level so we are ok with just producing "fine" players that we can make a profit on?

I only watch the odd youth game at Liverpool or Manchester United TV, but i do watch every senior match that's televised somewhere (including every pre season game), so my information mostly comes from the that so I'd greatly appreciate the opinion from the more knowledgable youth watchers.

chelsea have far greater depth than we do at all levels but the likes of kwp/onomah/edwards are by any measure amongst the best in their respective age groups/positions. all three have just played important roles in helping england win major tournaments this summer and by all accounts(i.e. not just spurs fans) onomah was one of the best players at the entire u20 world cup. clearly, producing players better than what we have in the first 11 is a tough task and this is also demonstrated by our lack of movement in the market but it doesn't mean we can't produce players who can fulfil important roles. forgetting why bentaleb and pritchard left for a minute, i would still rather have them than a lot of the players we've brought in over the past couple of years for example.

THFCSPURS19 · Aug 6, 2017

Bus-Conductor said:
Maybe when he's had more than what 3 PL starts out of 38 in a season people will acknowledge his been properly "promoted" by Poch ?

It might not be Poch's fault if Winks doesn't become established, but while he's choosing to play other possibly less viable combinations constantly it's hard to argue that right now.

The guy started our most important CL match (away to Monaco which we had to win). Furthermore, he was always trusted to come on at the end of big games.

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