The beginning of the end...

mil1lion · Aug 31, 2019

More important is what he does in defence. You can say both sides are vulnerable at the back but on paper we should have a stronger defence than Arsenal. That defence includes Vertonghen though and whatever is going on with Aurier he's our only available right back. Will Poch start either or both tomorrow and make them that bit happier. If you're going to make unsettled players feel that bit better then starting a derby could help. Give them a chance to prove a point.

This is one of the most challenging periods since Poch took over. There's a handful of players who are unsettled but come Monday I'm sure most if not all will still be here. Can he get them back on track and get that family feeling back in the changing room?

Lighty64 · Aug 31, 2019

.

McArchibald said:
So... while -fortunately- rumours of Poch's impending demise have been greatly exaggerated, it is safe to say that the knock on effect of that catastrophic summer of '18 is far worse than anyone could have feared.
It left our star manager severely upset and unhappy, we've callously run key players of the squad into the ground, we are still left with glaring weaknesses in our line-up and left several key players disgruntled to the point of wanting out.

Let's hope reports of the debt restructuring and our resulting increase in financial muscle are true. Because in order to keep our place a the top table, we will need a major squad overhaul which will make this summer's investment seem small in comparison...

so you are blaming the disgruntlement down to not us not signing players in 2018? when it wasn't helped that Toby's dad/agent got greedy when Toby was ready to put pen to paper, and with Toby most probably being best mates with Jan due to Ajax and Belgium, and turning up unfit and falling out with Poch hasn't signed.

Eriksen has a dream to play for RM, and with his age I would've expected this season would most probably be his last hope unless they decide to take him on a free next season.

now with that season of no signings, lets not include the months before up to the time we signed Moura because the window was closed, and your being not 1 of Levys biggest fans, who are you blaming?

according to ITK it was Poch that decided not to sign plan B's due to the fact we had a squad of 28 at the time, and 5 or 6 of those where plan B's and we were unable to shift.

do you ever think positive when it comes to Spurs?

Lighty64 · Aug 31, 2019

worcestersauce said:
People do read a lot into things don't they, seems to me the old adage it's good to talk is apposite here. It appears that the mood has been a bit blue this last week so let's go have dinner and talk things over, on a simple human basis that works and if it has lightened the mood going into this weekend's match that suits me fine. Has nobody else ever done that, got out of the office with colleagues just to touch base and rebond? If not you should try it.

you forgot to add "lets go to dinner, and watch the CL draw together", and then do a runner leaving Levy with the bill (hence next weeks meeting). Levy will sack him for welshing on his bill :whistle:

Lighty64 · Aug 31, 2019

McFlash said:
Oh, so playing a tournament has not helped keep him fit?

it might of helped keep him fit, or more tired as it started pretty soon after his season finished including joining up with the Argentina squad. with a young family I doubt he spent most of his holiday running around. he most probably done a lot of relaxing, having a drink or 2 and eating things he wouldn't usually indulge in.

Lighty64 · Aug 31, 2019

Shadydan said:
He's fit but obviously not match fit to the point where he can play 90 mins.

Had the Copa America then he went on holiday and came back late which meant he was weeks behind the rest of the team.

And then there's getting him Poch fit which will take another few months, I reckon he won't be getting regular starts until November at least.

if I was to put money on it his 1st start will be Colchester in the CoC

Lighty64 · Aug 31, 2019

scat1620 said:
With our furious pressing game no longer in evidence for some time, I think the much-lauded 'Poch fitness level' thing is completely overblown. We don't seem noticeably fitter than most other teams we play to me: we score plenty of late goals, but that seems to stem as much from our players taking a nap in the first half and not playing with any intensity until the last third of the match more than it does from just being relentlessly more energetic throughout the whole game than our opponents are.

I just don't buy 'Poch fitness' as a concept unless it's actually being demonstrated each week by us out-working the teams we're playing against: something I don't think we've been doing for a while. I reckon @mpickard2087 has my back here, right?

Therefore - while I'd be absolutely delighted if we went back to our 2015-2017 pressing game and actually made use of this supposed extra fitness we have in the bank when 'Poch training' kicks in - if we're not going to do that in games then let's not use it as an excuse to keep talented players like Lo Celso out of the side.

the high press for the full 90 disappeared after our last season at WHL (bigger pitch), it also coincided with playing CL football. in the Europa League group stages, we was able to rotate. a little harder doing that the last 2 seasons with the groups we have been drawn against haven't been teams you can get away with it. those extra 12 games makes a big difference.

last season we had the WC, and an injury list that wasn't to kind, and also 2 comps Son played in on top. the new European tournament meant International weeks meant managers playing the strongest XI, where before players might only play 45mins. we had 59 fixtures last season, and due to injuries and the draws we had in the CoC we had to go pretty strong or should I say strongest in most of those 59.

I also think the high press is a lot harder to do when a team has 10 players behind the ball. when pressing you are trying to turn defence into attack by forcing players to play the ball out of the back a lot quicker, or winning the tackles. when they have so many behind the ball it's easier for them to pass shorter passes and hope to hit our high line with pace. watch the highlights of the 2 seasons we really did it well and your notice a lot less bus parkers. we also have a squad that are 4 years older, and had 2 major tournaments in that time on the international stage. we started last season with 12 players involved in the WC, most of them played the final or where involved to the final weekend. when Poch 1st joined us, and applied the high press how many internationals did we have playing for their countries.

Lighty64 · Aug 31, 2019

fair enough disagreeing with me @scat1620 , please tell me what you disagree with, I look forwards to your reply, because everything I've posted has more of a possible reason than just wondering.

Shadydan · Aug 31, 2019

McFlash said:
I do get all of that but disagree on the fact that a young, professional sportsman can be so desperately unfit after a few weeks off.
Especially seeing as though the rest of the team have hardly been running their arses of during the first three games.
Our press of previous years hasn't shown up yet.

Who says he's desperately unfit?

ajspurs · Aug 31, 2019

Lighty64 said:
the high press for the full 90 disappeared after our last season at WHL (bigger pitch), it also coincided with playing CL football. in the Europa League group stages, we was able to rotate. a little harder doing that the last 2 seasons with the groups we have been drawn against haven't been teams you can get away with it. those extra 12 games makes a big difference.

last season we had the WC, and an injury list that wasn't to kind, and also 2 comps Son played in on top. the new European tournament meant International weeks meant managers playing the strongest XI, where before players might only play 45mins. we had 59 fixtures last season, and due to injuries and the draws we had in the CoC we had to go pretty strong or should I say strongest in most of those 59.

I also think the high press is a lot harder to do when a team has 10 players behind the ball. when pressing you are trying to turn defence into attack by forcing players to play the ball out of the back a lot quicker, or winning the tackles. when they have so many behind the ball it's easier for them to pass shorter passes and hope to hit our high line with pace. watch the highlights of the 2 seasons we really did it well and your notice a lot less bus parkers. we also have a squad that are 4 years older, and had 2 major tournaments in that time on the international stage. we started last season with 12 players involved in the WC, most of them played the final or where involved to the final weekend. when Poch 1st joined us, and applied the high press how many internationals did we have playing for their countries.

To be honest though, yes the press can be vital and yes it can add to our play, but you can't press the player on the ball when it's us who have the ball. For a while under Poch we've been a team who's had the majority of possession during a match too but what I find more worrying than the lack of press is the pace at which we now play at. We seem to have gotten much slower on the ball and have become overly predictable. We've often been somewhat mechanical and 'efficient' under Poch but there was normally also often a very nice fluidity between the front players, that's gone. I do wonder if getting Eriksen, Son and Dele playing together more will help that, I would like to think so but it shouldn't be a case of needing those three players on the pitch together to any bit gel up front.

The players don't look like they know how to build attacks at the moment, it's very strange.

Kiedis · Aug 31, 2019

This notion that teams have only recently started parking the bus against us is flat out strange. It's been a prominent feature ever since we became consistently decent, which is about ten years ago.

Our game under Poch have been excellent at dismantling these types of teams. Not always in a swashbuckling way, but through sustained pressure and by turning the screw.

scat1620 · Aug 31, 2019

Lighty64 said:
fair enough disagreeing with me @scat1620 , please tell me what you disagree with, I look forwards to your reply, because everything I've posted has more of a possible reason than just wondering.

Honestly, it would take too long to type out the multiple and varied reasons why I disagree with you, on both this particular post and nearly all matters Spurs. Genuinely, the thought of having to type it all out lengthy paragraph after lengthy paragraph in a Starting Price-style is pretty grim. Ratings are my shorthand, and I can't always be arsed to expand.

If you want to know what I'm thinking about Spurs on any given topic, go and read @dagraham's [excellent] post history in Spurs Chat, because all I'm really here for is the bustling hive of non-stop activity that is The HITMAN thread.

scat1620 · Aug 31, 2019

Kiedis said:
This notion that teams have only recently started parking the bus against us is flat out strange. It's been a prominent feature ever since we became consistently decent, which is about ten years ago.

Our game under Poch have been excellent at dismantling these types of teams. Not always in a swashbuckling way, but through sustained pressure and by turning the screw.

@Lighty64 - FYI, this post is a perfectly put example of one of the many bullet points that I couldn't be arsed to type out above. Hence my Winner rating. Shorthand: it's a beautiful thing.

Lighty64 · Aug 31, 2019

mil1lion said:
More important is what he does in defence. You can say both sides are vulnerable at the back but on paper we should have a stronger defence than Arsenal. That defence includes Vertonghen though and whatever is going on with Aurier he's our only available right back. Will Poch start either or both tomorrow and make them that bit happier. If you're going to make unsettled players feel that bit better then starting a derby could help. Give them a chance to prove a point.

This is one of the most challenging periods since Poch took over. There's a handful of players who are unsettled but come Monday I'm sure most if not all will still be here. Can he get them back on track and get that family feeling back in the changing room?

I saw some training picks and Aurier was all smiles and laughing. don't forget he played in the AFCON and needed an operation on his wrist

fishhhandaricecake · Aug 31, 2019

Shadydan said:
Did City deserve to win the tie based on their performance then?

Yes

McFlash · Aug 31, 2019

Shadydan said:
Who says he's desperately unfit?

Some posters on here saying he's clearly not match fit which for me, with him being a 23yr old pro sportsman, pretty much means desperately unfit.

Poch had said he's not at the required levels yet.

I myself don't believe he's that far off being able to play a full 90, if at all. He needs to get used to the team but fitness shouldn't be much of an issue.

McArchibald · Aug 31, 2019

Lighty64 said:
.

so you are blaming the disgruntlement down to not us not signing players in 2018? when it wasn't helped that Toby's dad/agent got greedy when Toby was ready to put pen to paper, and with Toby most probably being best mates with Jan due to Ajax and Belgium, and turning up unfit and falling out with Poch hasn't signed.

Eriksen has a dream to play for RM, and with his age I would've expected this season would most probably be his last hope unless they decide to take him on a free next season.

now with that season of no signings, lets not include the months before up to the time we signed Moura because the window was closed, and your being not 1 of Levys biggest fans, who are you blaming?

according to ITK it was Poch that decided not to sign plan B's due to the fact we had a squad of 28 at the time, and 5 or 6 of those where plan B's and we were unable to shift.

do you ever think positive when it comes to Spurs?

What is this actually about? I too read the post-mortems and appreciate that no one individual is to blame for that mess.
But the knock-on effect remains
I think the squad was alredy in need of repair at the time, and our inability to do that has contributed to many of the problems we see right now.
That's not taking away any of the gloss of last season's achievements - on the contrary.
My posts aren't about blame. I'm just stressing that regular inveatment in and renewal of the squad is a necessity rather than an option, because a failure to do so will lead to big problems later on.

Lighty64 · Aug 31, 2019

McArchibald said:
What is this actually about? I too read the post-mortems and appreciate that no one individual is to blame for that mess.
But the knock-on effect remains
I think the squad was alredy in need of repair at the time, and our inability to do that has contributed to many of the problems we see right now.
That's not taking away any of the gloss of last season's achievements - on the contrary.
My posts aren't about blame. I'm just stressing that regular inveatment in and renewal of the squad is a necessity rather than an option, because a failure to do so will lead to big problems later on.

but you said us not signing anyone was a reason behind the players being disgruntled and wanting out, as if it's fact and the actual reasons without any idea whats going on. the main fact was it's just another negative post, and a dig at the club.

we all know we needed to make changes, we all saw the definite need in midfield, and going by what ITK said Poch didn't want plan B's, and our plan A's didn't want to come. Levy fucked up with Grealish who would of helped, and had Villa taken Onamah might of got the deal done.

our problems with Toby go further back, as it does with Rose. if Jan come back not fit, or making too much about the fact Toby hasn't been offered 1. myself I wouldn't be shocked if the Jan not signing a new 1 is because he isn't happy to of not been offered the captaincy, and doesn't agree that Lloris kept it after a drink drive offence. The one thing I doubt it has anything to do with is the lack of signings.

yes we suffered burnout, which was the case to majority of the squad, with already having 28 man squad, and suffering 6-7 players being injured most of the season, would only getting Grealish in helped. we heard we went for de Ligt but Ajax put the price up to 70m and wanted a years loan, he also signed up with Raiola 1 of the biggest dicks in agent terms. we wanted De Jong but he didn't want us. if those 3 were our plan A's and Poch didn't want plan B's then what do you expect the club to do

Shadydan · Aug 31, 2019

fishhhandaricecake said:
Yes

lol

scat1620 · Sep 1, 2019

Lighty64 said:
but you said us not signing anyone was a reason behind the players being disgruntled and wanting out, as if it's fact and the actual reasons without any idea whats going on.

Lighty64 said:
our problems with Toby go further back, as it does with Rose. if Jan come back not fit, or making too much about the fact Toby hasn't been offered 1. myself I wouldn't be shocked if the Jan not signing a new 1 is because he isn't happy to of not been offered the captaincy, and doesn't agree that Lloris kept it after a drink drive offence. The one thing I doubt it has anything to do with is the lack of signings.

Lighty64 · Sep 1, 2019

scat1620 said:

perhaps read before you post or is 2 lines too much. by me saying "I wouldn't be shock" means it's my opinion. I never stated it as a FACT

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