The Jol Comparisons

MattyP said:

To be honest, whilst I understand it is human nature to compare Jol and Ramos, I think it's a bit pointless.

The king is dead, long live the king.

I'm more interested in comparing Ramos with Ferguson, Kiddie fiddler, Grant and Benitez.

If we want champions league football our manager arguably needs to be better than the above, given the dominance these four teams have on the top four spots.

And that's not to mention the managers of the other champions league wannabes.

So thank you Jol for what you have done, you will never be forgotten and I loved you when you were here.

Now its the next man's job to see if he can improve on what you did. I hope he can.

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SPOT ON

MattyP said:

To be honest, whilst I understand it is human nature to compare Jol and Ramos, I think it's a bit pointless.

The king is dead, long live the king.

I'm more interested in comparing Ramos with Ferguson, Kiddie fiddler, Grant and Benitez.

If we want champions league football our manager arguably needs to be better than the above, given the dominance these four teams have on the top four spots.

And that's not to mention the managers of the other champions league wannabes.

So thank you Jol for what you have done, you will never be forgotten and I loved you when you were here.

Now its the next man's job to see if he can improve on what you did. I hope he can.

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But can we really even make worth while comparisons between those managers and our coach? Thesedays you can only really compare clubs as a whole. Pin pointing which particular part of the set up is most responsible for success or failure is very hard to do. Hence my assertation than the role of the coach is limited and reliant up other hugely significant factors. If Wenger and Arsenal finish above us for the next 2 seasons, i don't really think we can simply then say Wenger is a better coach than Ramos. Could Wenger realistically get our players playing the fluent pass and move football of his Arsenal side? If that was the case then surely he wouldn't invest so much time and effort into scouring the world for the best young talent.

The success and failure of the likes of Wenger et al is totally down to them, whilst Ramos, as head coach, is limited. For example, Wenger put his own scouting network in place and his own youth set up, whilst Ramos is pretty reliant of the scouting network and youth set up of another person. Wenger is essentially both the Director of Football and coach, so does the roles of both Comolli and Ramos.

sloth said:

Utterly ridiculous.

I might disagree with you about the merits or otherwise of Jol, but I'll always do you the courtesy of taking on your argument and more than that I'll take it on in its strength not its weakness.

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I would point out that I said one of the main complaints. And furthermore, if there is any simplification, I would suggest it comes from you for quoting me out of context. The first paragraph led onto the main thrust of the argument, which is to say that Jol and Ramos are two different managers. In point of fact, my main point is the very concept you state I have over-simplified, in that Ramos and Jol are in two very different situations.

By asking why Ramos failed to beat Arsenal, I was drawing attention to the very common knee jerk reaction that many on this forum like to engage in. Obviously, an internet forum isn't the best medium on which to convey irony, but I would have thought it would have been picked up.

sloth said:

I could list all the ways in which what you wrote fails to address the the real criticisms people had, the way it drills down into a single specific and yet attempts to treat it as if it were the whole, but what is the point? If you're honest with yourself, you'll know it already, if not then it's a waste of time debating with you.

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But again, it is your argument that is failing to address the subject of the thread, in that people are comparing Ramos and Jol. My point is that this is a) pointless and b) in some cases has denigrated Jol's contribution to the club, and that has been my point for a large part of this thread.

Bus-Conductor said:

The funny thing is, last season, with a far stronger team at his disposal, and with arsenal a far less consistant team we went there and were played offf the park twice.

This year, with an injury ravaged team ( a cm at rb, a rb at cb, a 20 yo cb, a debutant in cm) we were in control of the team at the top of the prem playing better than ever and usually creating shitloads at home. And barring a wank penalty would surely have won.

My biggest grumble last yar was not that we were outplayed but that we were out battled and outfought.

Not this time.

Time will truly tell the difference between Jol and Ramos but tell me you didn't notice the difference etween our performance this year and last.

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And once again, this thread is not about comparing the relative strengths and weaknesses of the two managers. It is about the folly of doing so. I will state my position once more.: The two managers are not comparable as they will be in two very different situations. Their relative successes and failures will be subject to a whole host of different factors and any comparison will be pointless and misleading.

rez9000 said:

And once again, this thread is not about comparing the relative strengths and weaknesses of the two managers. It is about the folly of doing so. I will state my position once more.: The two managers are not comparable as they will be in two very different situations. Their relative successes and failures will be subject to a whole host of different factors and any comparison will be pointless and misleading.

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everything we do on this site is folly. it doesnt matter what stats joey comes up with, he's not a manager, it doesnt matter what you, i, or anyone else on this site thinks because we're not players or part of the club, we're people that like to talk about the club we all support even though we know it doesnt make a slight difference in any way. its all folly. if people want to compare the two managers or criticise jol then no one can tell them they are wrong to do so or spew out 'but 5th twice in a row' like they're morons and dont know this. they do know this and have their opinion anyway. the way some of you respond to the posters that criticise or even doubt jol is wrong, especially one of the mods.

rez this post isnt aimed just at you, you were good for the quote, but to all of you jol cock suckers that show no respect to your fellow posters that dont share your view

and for the record i would have supported jol all the way as he probably took us towards a relegation battle through the season, believing he would turn us around. we're much better off without him

Are we still chewing the fat over this guy?

He's long gone. We're better for it.

Onward and upwards.

Tottenham striker Robbie Keane believes Martin Jol deserves more credit for their recent form reversal.

Ex-Spurs boss Jol is being touted to take over at Fulham and as the two sides prepare to meet, Keane said: "Juande has brought his own ideas, but I'd never say a bad word about Martin. I think it was only a matter of time before we started playing like this."

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http://www.tribalfootball.com/article.php?id=70878

Ok so its from tribal football, I still think it applies though.

gooch said:

everything we do on this site is folly. it doesnt matter what stats joey comes up with, he's not a manager, it doesnt matter what you, i, or anyone else on this site thinks because we're not players or part of the club, we're people that like to talk about the club we all support even though we know it doesnt make a slight difference in any way. its all folly. if people want to compare the two managers or criticise jol then no one can tell them they are wrong to do so or spew out 'but 5th twice in a row' like they're morons and dont know this. they do know this and have their opinion anyway. the way some of you respond to the posters that criticise or even doubt jol is wrong, especially one of the mods.

rez this post isnt aimed just at you, you were good for the quote, but to all of you jol cock suckers that show no respect to your fellow posters that dont share your view

and for the record i would have supported jol all the way as he probably took us towards a relegation battle through the season, believing he would turn us around. we're much better off without him

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I acknowledge that your comments aren't necessarily directed at me, gooch, but I have to say that showing respect for our fellow posters cuts both ways. 'Jol cock suckers' doesn't come across as particularly respectful, does it? Nor does saying that some people 'spew out' a comment.

Although I freely admit that there has been an element of hostility from those who support Martin Jol, I would also say that in my time on this board (which isn't all that long) the flavour of bile directed at Jol has, in my opinion, gone beyond general dissatisfaction and into outright viciousness. Threads are started complaining about his weaknesses with no mention of his strengths as a coach. And I've found that those who choose to attack Jol are often far more aggressive and venemous than those who choose to defend him. Maybe I feel that way because I defended Jol, but that's how it seemed to me.

However, if you believe that the Jol supporters have taken it too far, mentioning Stoof is the worst example to choose. The number of times I've seen him (and many others, in actual fact) post moderate and reasoned posts defending Jol are too numerous to tally. And many of the posts I've seen in response do not reciprocate that reason - they just degenerate into personal attacks. If Stoof now appears to be a little hostile, I would suggest it's purely because he is running out of patience, going over the same old ground that some on this board refuse to put aside. In that regard, I don't blame him one bit.

I admit to being a staunch supporter of Jol and I thank him wholeheartedly for his contribution the club. But that doesn't mean I dislike Ramos or believe him to be a poor manager. I haven't seen enough of him yet. And therein lies the difference. Many (not all) of the Jol-knockers categorically state that Ramos is a better manager. How do they know? He's only been here for twelve games. I choose to reserve judgement on Ramos until he has been here long enough to make an impact on the team. And throughout Ramos' tenure I will continue to acknowledge what Jol did for us. I choose to analyse what I feel are each man's strengths and weaknesses together, not mention only the weaknesses to bolster an opinion. I choose to judge each manager as a man in his own right, not as a yardstick for the other. I choose not to tarnish what Jol or Ramos achieve by comparing them with the other's successes or failures. That, in my opinion, shows greater respect, not only to Jol, but to Ramos as well.

Comparing the two men, I feel, is pointless because they are in very different circumstances (of that there is no doubt) and the number of things that would have to be taken into consideration are so numerous as to make the debate prohibitively complicated. Furthermore, comparing the two men also denigrates them both, as their achievements would not then stand alone as a success, but will be associated with someone else's failure.

Now, if there are some who wish to continue a debate that could be considered pointless and disrespectful, then that is their prerogative. Personally, I think there are better things to talk about.

It is the joy of the forum when people confuse their opinion with fact.

Happens all the time here.

Rez, you choose to place the majority of success over the last two years at Jol's feet, in fact to hear you and many others tell it, he's done it despite the best efforts of the club, not because. He's had shit players thrust upon him, by a man he doesn't believe in appointed by a chairman who's only interested in the share price. Despite this pig's ear of a club he managed to fashion a silk-purse of a team.

I don't denigrate what Jol did for us, but I try to see it in the round. I no more think he was solely responsible for consecutive 5ths than he was for this season's catastrophe. But I think his role is to take responsibility. Credit where it's due, but also criticism.

Too many people with their heart's in the right place want to treat Jol as if he were some sort of Saint, the Dearly Departed of whom not a bad word shall be said. He's not dead, he's an ex-coach and we can critique him without damning our souls for ever more.

In addition you want to paint the criticism as un-reasoned but I think you'd struggle to find more than a handful of posts that could be tarred that way. Doubts about Jol grew steadily this season and last, the criticism has been consistent and for the most part thought out. Interestingly the doubts were clearly shared by some of those who worked closely with him. That does not make the criticism's right but it should add some level of legitimacy.

But it doesn't. Instead you and other like you like to pretend that "not winning against the top four" is the crux of the argument, or that "he was tactically naive" was the only case we wanted him to answer for. Now even the phrase "tactically naive" is some how illegitmate.

The fact is that some wish to put him on a pedastal their support of him is uncritical in only the way true fan(atic)s can muster. I recognise it because this is the way I am towards my team, I just think Jol is not Spurs.

gooch said:

the way some of you respond to the posters that criticise or even doubt jol is wrong, especially one of the mods.

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Merry Christmas to you too. :shake:

I suppose calling people "Jol cock suckers" isn't personal at all?

Thanks to rez for explaining. :up:

sloth said:

Too many people with their heart's in the right place want to treat Jol as if he were some sort of Saint,

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That would be down to the disgraceful circumstances of his going. The club have made a martyr of him. He was a good man (and a good coach) treated badly and that is what sticks in people's craw. It also goes along way to explaining why so many of us are inclined to trust Jol's version of events rather than the Board's when it comes to attributing praise and apportioning blame.

In addition you want to paint the criticism as un-reasoned but I think you'd struggle to find more than a handful of posts that could be tarred that way.

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Actually the board is littered with quite ignorant and offensive posts. It was posts such as the one saying that if Jol had still been in charge for the Arsenal game we would have lost 4-nil that lead to the creation of this thread.

Ramos is doing okay, I like what I have seen so far. But posts that claim all our problems were down to Jol and we are going to be okay now we have Ramos, really get on my tits.

eddiebailey said:

That would be down to the disgraceful circumstances of his going. The club have made a martyr of him. He was a good man (and a good coach) treated badly and that is what sticks in people's craw. It also goes along way to explaining why so many of us are inclined to trust Jol's version of events rather than the Board's when it comes to attributing praise and apportioning blame.



Actually the board is littered with quite ignorant and offensive posts. It was posts such as the one saying that if Jol had still been in charge for the Arsenal game we would have lost 4-nil that lead to the creation of this thread.

Ramos is doing okay, I like what I have seen so far. But posts that claim all our problems were down to Jol and we are going to be okay now we have Ramos, really get on my tits.

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Take them with a pinch of salt, they have little understand of the beautiful game or they are simply delinquent

southlondonyiddo said:

Take them with a pinch of salt, they have little understand of the beautiful game or they are simply delinquent

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LOL, I refer you to the post to which Eddie was responding (#169). And Eddie, see what I mean?

sloth said:

Rez, you choose to place the majority of success over the last two years at Jol's feet, in fact to hear you and many others tell it, he's done it despite the best efforts of the club, not because. He's had shit players thrust upon him, by a man he doesn't believe in appointed by a chairman who's only interested in the share price. Despite this pig's ear of a club he managed to fashion a silk-purse of a team.

I don't denigrate what Jol did for us, but I try to see it in the round. I no more think he was solely responsible for consecutive 5ths than he was for this season's catastrophe. But I think his role is to take responsibility. Credit where it's due, but also criticism.

Too many people with their heart's in the right place want to treat Jol as if he were some sort of Saint, the Dearly Departed of whom not a bad word shall be said. He's not dead, he's an ex-coach and we can critique him without damning our souls for ever more.

In addition you want to paint the criticism as un-reasoned but I think you'd struggle to find more than a handful of posts that could be tarred that way. Doubts about Jol grew steadily this season and last, the criticism has been consistent and for the most part thought out. Interestingly the doubts were clearly shared by some of those who worked closely with him. That does not make the criticism's right but it should add some level of legitimacy.

But it doesn't. Instead you and other like you like to pretend that "not winning against the top four" is the crux of the argument, or that "he was tactically naive" was the only case we wanted him to answer for. Now even the phrase "tactically naive" is some how illegitmate.

The fact is that some wish to put him on a pedastal their support of him is uncritical in only the way true fan(atic)s can muster. I recognise it because this is the way I am towards my team, I just think Jol is not Spurs.

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Course he wasn't the greatest manager to ever walk the earth and there were plenty of times when i disagreed with him.
But ive been watching Tottenham home n away since 1975 and when he had the 100% backing of the club we had our Tottenham back and we were marching in the right direction. No more 7 nil defeats at Newcastle or 6-1's at Bolton etc.
As soon as he bacame a dead man walking the spirit went from the team and we pretty much fell apart.
I hope Ramos can get us back to where we were under Jol and even improve on it.

jol did a great job, but some people seem to want to forget that.for me, he would always be welcome back at the lane.
as for ramos, i can only say i like what i'v seen and heard from so far

Stoof said:

Merry Christmas to you too. :shake:

I suppose calling people "Jol cock suckers" isn't personal at all?

Thanks to rez for explaining. :up:

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#You're so vain, you probably think...#:wink:

Merry Christmas too:beer:

sloth said:

Rez, you choose to place the majority of success over the last two years at Jol's feet, in fact to hear you and many others tell it, he's done it despite the best efforts of the club, not because. He's had shit players thrust upon him, by a man he doesn't believe in appointed by a chairman who's only interested in the share price. Despite this pig's ear of a club he managed to fashion a silk-purse of a team.

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I think Sloth is right when saying that we cant soley attribute the praise of two 5th place finishes and the cup runs at Jol's feet. It was the club as a whole that must take credit, from Levy's business acumen that saw us bring in Berbatov and make such a huge profit on Carrick, right down to Chris Hughton and his clipboard.

By the same stretch I believe that everyone has to take their fair share of blame in failure. The problems were noticeable before this season starting and although Comolli, Levy and the board didnt help the situation, they are as calpable as Jol was for our early demise.

As I have said in many other posts, I was very much a Jol fan that would put aside my frustrations and support him in the face of criticisms. But I have to beleive that the choice to sack him and bring in Ramos was in the best interests of the club because I support Spurs, not Jol.

It doesnt mean that we have to Jol bash but I can still criticise him and yes compare him to other managers.

Its funny how no one ever came out in defence of Gerry Francis, Christian Gross, Ossy, Glenn or even Santini when they got the boot. Is it because of success? or is it because of the martyr analogy someone made earlier? because I can certainly see a resembalence to Venables.

sloth said:

Rez, you choose to place the majority of success over the last two years at Jol's feet, in fact to hear you and many others tell it, he's done it despite the best efforts of the club, not because. He's had shit players thrust upon him, by a man he doesn't believe in appointed by a chairman who's only interested in the share price. Despite this pig's ear of a club he managed to fashion a silk-purse of a team.

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I'm sorry, sloth, but in that respect you're dead wrong. If you look to the last paragraph of post #138, this is what you'll see:

rez9000 said:

We became an on-the-up team because of a combination of reasons, not simply as a result of one aspect of football. Jol played his part, Levy played his part, the players played their part and the fans played their part. To claim that Jol had nothing to do with it, or to claim that Ramos is better at it with absolutely no evidence is mendacious and stupid.

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sloth said:

I don't denigrate what Jol did for us, but I try to see it in the round. I no more think he was solely responsible for consecutive 5ths than he was for this season's catastrophe. But I think his role is to take responsibility. Credit where it's due, but also criticism.

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And most people share your view. Those who back Jol don't do it through rose-tinted specs (in the vast majority of cases), but simply believe he was the best manager we've had at the Lane for many years. The difference is that instead of a balanced critique, we see hostile criticism, usually of the type that isn't even backed up by a reasoned argument. We see attacks rather then analysis.

sloth said:

But it doesn't. Instead you and other like you like to pretend that "not winning against the top four" is the crux of the argument, or that "he was tactically naive" was the only case we wanted him to answer for. Now even the phrase "tactically naive" is some how illegitmate.

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I've said it once, and I hoped I wouldn't have to say it again, sloth, but I've said that ONE of the main complaints. And, in truth, it is probably the complaint I've seen the most. And those that choose to bash Jol aren't being balanced, because they don't mention any of the good results, any of the real demonstrations of beautiful football that Spurs produced under Jol. If he's responsible for the failures, then he's just as responsible for the glories, yet few of those who wanted Jol out mention them. As for the phrase 'tactically naive' it has never been legitimate. It has no meaning. What is the definition of 'tactically naive'?

sloth said:

The fact is that some wish to put him on a pedastal their support of him is uncritical in only the way true fan(atic)s can muster. I recognise it because this is the way I am towards my team, I just think Jol is not Spurs.

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And this is misleading. The reason there hasn't been much of a balanced critique by those who look to defend Jol is that most of the threads about him polarise the debate before it's even started. Usually the thread title is so inflammatory that a balanced debate is rendered impossible. When someone starts a subject with the title 'Jol is crap!' what else do you expect apart from vociferousness from both sides?

what A Shame

Such a shame we got off to such a poor start. Without doubt if we had got off to a decent start we would be challenging for 4th. or at worse 5th. place once again.
The boards decision to get rid of Martin seems to have been justified,the pity is that they did'nt get Ramos in the close season. Who knows if they had how high we would be now......COYS

bugsdad said:

Such a shame we got off to such a poor start. Without doubt if we had got off to a decent start we would be challenging for 4th. or at worse 5th. place once again.
The boards decision to get rid of Martin seems to have been justified,the pity is that they did'nt get Ramos in the close season. Who knows if they had how high we would be now......COYS

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the board fucked Jol about, causing the problems... of course its justified because they now give full backing to the manager in place ad will probably buy in the players he wants