gooch
New Member
- Jan 28, 2006
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Do you consider Rocha, Berbatov, Zokora or Malbranque to be inexperienced? I think we have signed all since Davids? Have we not?
no, i guess not, so jol should have done better. settled then
Do you consider Rocha, Berbatov, Zokora or Malbranque to be inexperienced? I think we have signed all since Davids? Have we not?
*post*
Individual games are important, certain games if you want to achieve something or win something are quite simply crunch matches along the way. When we had those crunch matches last season we failed to win in all of them. I'm particularly talking about cup games here, people eulogise about our cup runs as if they were something special but we never defeated 1 decent team in a cup game last season. The first decent opposition we come up against in each competition knocked us out. For me Ramos has already won a crunch cup game for us at Man City as the League cup still looks our best chance of European qualification for next season.
You are of course correct that Ramos hasn't won a game against the top 4 but he has only played 1 match away at Arse plus if you want to add it 1 with Sevilla again at the Arse but lets see what he can do between now and the seasons end when we will have at least 6 more opportunities. After all Ramos's record against Barca & Real whilst at Sevilla was good.
I'm not sure that without Jol there would be no talk of the big 5, after all he has had a very good squad of players to work with during his tenure.
It may well be the case that I personally don't give enough credit to Jol for his achievements as Spurs manager. But I also think other people have gone way overboard in the praise they have lavished on him, labelling him as a Spurs legend etc.
In my own personal mind he will go down as an average Spurs manager who achieved EUFA qualification twice with the best squad of players that Spurs have had for a very very long time.
Being a Spurs Legend is about achievement. But not achievement purely in terms of trophies and medals. Mabbut became a Legend through showing loyalty and determination and sheer hard work (and a couple of medals too). Ginola became a Legend because he brought flair and style and glory to the pitch (and a floppy haircut too). Jol can be considered a Legend, in my opinion, because he brought a sense of fun to the club, and played his part in making us a team that neutral fans like to back and rival fans have come to fear. For that, he deserves better than to be labelled as merely average.
Of course, some games are important. But our Cup runs last season were very good. As for playing good sides, what about Besiktas and Leverkusen in the UEFA Cup? We beat them both. We beat them both away. They were good results, especially against Besiktas who were formidable at the time. And we may not have come up against stern opposition in the domestic cups, but we went to the latter stages in both of them. And a Cup competition is never a foregone conlcusion
Good post. Is David Pleat a legend, our best finish in the league for decades?But that ultimately doesn't really distinguish him much even from someone like Glenn Hoddle, who certainly isn't, in terms of what he did on the coaching side, a legend. He also brought back fun to the club. Graham made us the most dull team in the country who in his last season broke his own record, set at Arsenal, for consecutive nil-nil draws.
Hoddle within a year had us destroying Chelsea 5-1 at the Lane with the best football we'd seen in a decade. I don't think the turnaround in style of play was that major under Jol. Sure, Santini seemed to going down to the same Graham style road but he wasn't here long enough to do much damage.
I think Jol like Hoddle was ultimately a means to an end. We couldn't have got the talents of Jol/Arnesen back when Hoddle first arrived and we couldn't get someone like Ramos when Jol was first appointed head coach. So they should be thanked for their efforts and their part is getting to where we are now but certainly they don't go down as 'legends' or anything like.
Of course, some games are important. But our Cup runs last season were very good. As for playing good sides, what about Besiktas and Leverkusen in the UEFA Cup? We beat them both. We beat them both away. They were good results, especially against Besiktas who were formidable at the time. And we may not have come up against stern opposition in the domestic cups, but we went to the latter stages in both of them. And a Cup competition is never a foregone conlcusion.
We ended up playing 60 games last season, and for our efforts we gained a fifth place finish, two quarter-finals and a semi-final. When compared to other recent seasons, that speaks to me of achievement, not underachievement.
To say that Jol gained European qualification with the best squad of players that we've had at the Lane for some time, feeds into my point that one aspect of the club alone cannot be solely responsible for the fortunes of the club. We may have had the best squad of players at Spurs for a long time, but to suggest that any manager could have done what Jol did sullies what the club as a whole achieved. Even if it were true, he still got us the two fifth placed finishes, didn't he? Doesn't he deserve some recognition for that?
The reason that I personally rail against Jol-bashing is the inherent ingratitude in such behaviour. And it's been evident not just from certain fans, but from the board as well. The board treated him very badly toward the end of his tenure. Instead of allowing him to leave in a dignified manner, they strung him along for 2 months. That's ingratitude.
As for some fans, they've treated his achievements as par for the course, as if it were no more than should have been expected. That's outrageous! At the start of the 04/05 season I doubt you'd find a Spurs fan who would have complained if they had been told that by the end of the following season they would have qualified for Europe again.
As for treating him like a Legend, why not? Why is Ginola hailed as a Legend? He didn't win anything except a League Cup with us. He is a Spurs Legend because he encapsulated what the club is supposed to be about: glory. And Jol, at times, engineered some truly glorious football. Add to that the difference between him and other managers. He brought dignity, humour and class to the post, and he won us a lot of respect and much regard from neutral fans because of it.
Being a Spurs Legend is about achievement. But not achievement purely in terms of trophies and medals. Mabbut became a Legend through showing loyalty and determination and sheer hard work (and a couple of medals too). Ginola became a Legend because he brought flair and style and glory to the pitch (and a floppy haircut too). Jol can be considered a Legend, in my opinion, because he brought a sense of fun to the club, and played his part in making us a team that neutral fans like to back and rival fans have come to fear. For that, he deserves better than to be labelled as merely average.
Rez let me start by saying I agree with some of your points but disagree with others but in my opinion you put forward the jol side better than anybody. When I read what you write I find myself nodding in agreement with a lot of it because of its reasoning.
As i said in my previous post I probably don't give Jol as much credit as I should for his achievements whilst at the helm. But in any sport or business or even personal lifes there are pivotal moments, crossroads that shape your destiny, moments that you have decisions to make and moments where you shape history.
For me personally there were history moments during Jol's tenure, moments when he had to make those massive decisions that would have an effect on what we could achieve. For me personally (and it is only an opinion) Jol made the wrong decisions in all of those history moments.
people will argue and credibly so that it wasn't down to him, but I see Chelsea away in the FA Cup as a history moment that he fluffed, Arse in the Carling the same, Defoe sitting on the bench for an hour against sevilla the same, Lenny being substituted at Highbury the same.
These are all the massive moments i look at in Jols tenure and I believe on all of these occasions he fluffed his lines and was at least as responsible as anybody or anything else stopping us winning any of those games.
For me he isn't a legend, if he is for others fine. Bill Nick is a legend for me as are Burkinshaw and Rowe. I do however see Ginola as a Spurs legend, reason being out of hundreds if not thousands he was one of the most exciting and best players ever to grace the hallowed turf. Legends for me is quite an exclusive club, in my mind Ginola belongs there, Jol doesn't.
I harbour no real feelings for Jol one way or the other now, he had his time, done his bit and has moved on. Although i don't know him personally he seems like a very decent guy and one that it would be fun to have a beer with. But I want more than that from my team, I want to win things, I want Spurs to return to past glory's and at the very least to compete with the big 4.
Vamos Ramos (I hope he will be a legend)