It wasn't just that he was out of position, it was more the fact that he didn't even sprint back to help the defence out, even N'dombele put in a little spurt when he got close to the penalty area.
SC's Tactical Autopsy thread
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Bobbins
SC's 14th Sexiest Male 2008
- May 5, 2005
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No-one posted that picture which has been doing the rounds on Twitter yet? 9 minutes in, Dier has the ball and is looking to get it forwards to someone - and there is literally nothing in the entire middle third of the pitch except Arsenal players.
PLTuck
Eternal Optimist
- Aug 22, 2006
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guiltyparty
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- Sep 21, 2005
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It happened so many times that it has to be tactical. If it wasn't of Nuno's choosing, then what the hell was going on?
Lucas's comments suggest it was tactical. We were hitting long balls with no midfield, as you say, from almost the first kick
Aphex
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- Jan 30, 2021
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It was definitely tactical, Ndombele and Alli were playing as forwards, absolutely mental.
PLTuck
Eternal Optimist
- Aug 22, 2006
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We agree for once
It was like Nuno thought...aha they will be expecting us to sit deep and counter with pace so I'm going to be clever and play a 4-1-5 and just hoof it up. That'll definitely work. Fans want more attacking football. 5 forwards baby!
idontgetit
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- Aug 21, 2011
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It sounds odd but I honestly think we should go 4-4-2 for the moment.
PEH and Skipp as a CM pivot, Moura and Gill on the wings. Gil can mix it up between playing on the touchline like a winger to give width or dropping inside to pick up the ball in the areas Eriksen used to for us. Moura can do similar from the right. Kane can drop off if the wingers are high and wide.
PEH and Skipp as a CM pivot, Moura and Gill on the wings. Gil can mix it up between playing on the touchline like a winger to give width or dropping inside to pick up the ball in the areas Eriksen used to for us. Moura can do similar from the right. Kane can drop off if the wingers are high and wide.
DEFchenkOE
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- Feb 13, 2006
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I wouldn't mind this, but I'd be tempted to play Lo Celso instead of Lucas. Kind of like 4-2-2-2 with the ball with Reguilon and Emerson providing the width, Hojberg and Skipp providing the security. Use Lucas as the striker rotation option.
idontgetit
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- Aug 21, 2011
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I've always been heavily in favour of a proper 4-3-3 with Lo Celso and N'dombele involved but if they're going to be fucking useless this season I can't really keep up the pretence.
Honestly, I think we lack the midfielders to play a 433 well. I'd personally be in favour of letting Nuno play something he is comfortable with (and something I like tbh) which is a 343/352.
I think Romero and Tanganga in the same back three could be really strong and would allow them to be as aggresive as they like. We know Romero has excelled in this setup at Atalanta and Rodon, Dier, Sanchez and Davies can all give something to it depending on who we are facing.
Reguilon tbh has been a mixed bag, but I'd still fancy him to be better in this role. Emerson, it's too early to say but again we have Doherty and Sessegnon in the squad who can play this sytem. I would love to see Sessegnon come back from injury as I genuinely think he has the intelligence in his game to play this role.
For a midfield two, I'd play Hojbjerg and Skipp. GLC potentially could do a job in there, but I'm not sold on the idea and lets be honest, between injuries and his international breaks, he's not exactly someone we can rely on (the same can be said for Romero). Dele I don't think I'd trust in there and I'd only play N'Dombele as the #10 in a middle three (can't remember who said it elsewhere, but I agree with them).
On that note. In a 352 with a third midfielder popping up and creating stuff, only N'Dombele really fits the bill. There is no-one else in this senior team who could do the same. The alternative is that we go with a pacy pair either side of Kane, which tbh is probably about right given that we have Moura, Son, Gil and Bergwijn as our only other forwards.
I think Romero and Tanganga in the same back three could be really strong and would allow them to be as aggresive as they like. We know Romero has excelled in this setup at Atalanta and Rodon, Dier, Sanchez and Davies can all give something to it depending on who we are facing.
Reguilon tbh has been a mixed bag, but I'd still fancy him to be better in this role. Emerson, it's too early to say but again we have Doherty and Sessegnon in the squad who can play this sytem. I would love to see Sessegnon come back from injury as I genuinely think he has the intelligence in his game to play this role.
For a midfield two, I'd play Hojbjerg and Skipp. GLC potentially could do a job in there, but I'm not sold on the idea and lets be honest, between injuries and his international breaks, he's not exactly someone we can rely on (the same can be said for Romero). Dele I don't think I'd trust in there and I'd only play N'Dombele as the #10 in a middle three (can't remember who said it elsewhere, but I agree with them).
On that note. In a 352 with a third midfielder popping up and creating stuff, only N'Dombele really fits the bill. There is no-one else in this senior team who could do the same. The alternative is that we go with a pacy pair either side of Kane, which tbh is probably about right given that we have Moura, Son, Gil and Bergwijn as our only other forwards.
Spurs 1961
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- Aug 31, 2012
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Yes the MNF slot did a clear analysis of it. Obviously it was a Nuno tactic. Better labelled as complete madness. Once Arsenal realised we were deliberately vacating the middle of the park they stepped in and cruised to victory
DEFchenkOE
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- Feb 13, 2006
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Me too, since Poch signed them. But in over 2 years we have rarely seen it for one reason or another and I've all but given up hope of it happening. Even when Lo Celso has played under Nuno it has mostly been on the right. Due to the lack of defensive work by Ndombele and Hojbjergs tendency to want to press and not just sit in, it seems like Skipp has to play. So then it becomes a case of midfield 4 or midfield 3. Either way Nuno needs to work out a way quickly to get the most out of our most important players.
I don't want to see that embarrassing attempt of a 433 that we saw on Sunday ever again. It's imperative that Nuno gets the midfield right.
ShelfWatcher
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- Sep 9, 2021
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3 ATB is the way to go starting with Mura
- Jan 14, 2004
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I just don't know how 3 at the back is going to work any better and for those calling out the midfield players, sure they weren't great but we could have played Kante in there with a prime Xavi and Iniesta and it would have been completely ineffective playing the way we did in the first half. I'm not sure Ndombele touched the ball until about 15 minutes into the game and that first touch was actually pretty effective sliding in Reguilon.
Watching back the game once the dust had settled, I don't remember ever seeing a team in the premier league playing with such inept and bizarre tactics...ever. It sounds crazy but after watching for only 5 or so minutes it was pretty clear that our tactic was to pump the ball long from the back to the either full back area (not even to our player) and then try to win the ball high up.
By doing this we were then asking the midfielders to try to pick up the second balls so we could attack from higher up the pitch
It's an incredibly poor way to attack. Those long balls are exactly what the defenders enjoy defending against, especially when there is no big lump of a striker challenging them for the ball. None of our midfield three are suited to winning those second balls, the full backs can't really get up and be involved and we aren't creating any overloads, catching players out of position etc. Just incredibly frustrating to watch. But even without taking into account all of the ways we could better attack it also caused us all sorts of defensive problems that seemed to be compounded by some really bizarre defensive structures and decisions.
We tried to attack the wide areas but and the midfield got spread but when we defended, we defended from the front with two very narrow and flat lines of 3. It looked as if the players were consciously trying to remain in those tight lines of 3 but the problem was that the ball was played so long from the back that we were really stretched from back to front. The midfield 3 tried to drop back as it looked like that was the instruction when play broke down
That made it incredibly easy for Arsenal to break and play between the lines. Our midfielders were having to always play defending back toward the goal (which really doesn't suit Hojbjerg at all who is much more of a progressive hunter gatherer attacking the ball in front of him - when it gets behind him he looks completely lost as he did over and over again at the weekend)
Or on some occasions Arsenal would actually keep the ball at the back and Kane would randomly try and press (yeh it did happen but it was really inconsistent and there was done in isolation)
Combining that press with our flat midfield dropping off meant the pocket of space in front of midfield was enormous giving Partey and Odergaard as much time as they could possibly want to play through the midfield. The defence would then have to step out to try to win the ball when played into Aubamayang and just made it incredibly easy to cut us open with runs from the midfield (with our midfielders not seeming to know whether they should be keeping the structure or hurrying back. Sounds like a joke but that honestly how it appeared). If we are going to press we also need to squeeze up the defensive line to avoid some of those pockets of space.
From both an attacking and defensive standpoint it was an absolute disaster. We got much better when Skipp came on and we had both he and Hojbjerg sitting in front of the defensive and we actually played out through them but we also stopped inviting pressure because that space just wasn't available. It's something that we should really be trying to build off moving forward.
Skipp is really good at marshalling this area. He doesn't always win the ball but he is pretty happy moving across the full width of the pitch to help out full backs. With him deeper and controlling this space it then allows the other 2 in the middle to actually move out and try and win the ball rather than being caught running backwards especially as this slows the opposition down as the space isn't so obviously available to play into. He is then available to play out to easily when we are in possession and advance the ball as well as have shorter passes into either the other midfielders or out to the full backs (likely via other midfielders)
It also allows our defence to push up and for a guy like Romero to really step out and be aggressive and win the ball being played into those areas as we have the extra man that can slot in if necessary.
Similarly I think we can press much better from the front with two up top harrying the opposition if we have the 3rd forward deeper to prevent the easy out balls into the space in front of the midfield. Whether that is a Lo Celso or a Gil (who definitely has the work ethic to cover the space) it again slows down the opposition distribution and would allow those midfielders like Hojbjerg and Ndombele to come up and help press the opposition or pick up the extra men rather than just staying in a flat line "keeping a structure".
It was honestly inexplicable and I hope we never see that kind of tactic again. It doesn't suit the talent in our midfield who can absolutely pass and create from the middle if we win balls in the middle (as with the Kane goal vs wolves with the nice build up and through ball right through the middle of the park). It doesn't suit our full backs who can't get involved and then get exposed when we are broken on quickly. It doesn't suit Kane who was really keeping his higher up position but is far more special of a player when he engages the defence and then pulls deeper off them (as Aubamayang did for Arsenal and exposed us) because defenders just can't follow him. Kane dropping off would also allow that number 10 position to get beyond him and cause defences and deeper midfielders issues with tracking the right men. It doesn't suit Son or Lucas who have to try to win long balls and can't ever get in beyond Kane and it certainly doesn't suit our defence who have no cover and get broken on at pace.
Just a disaster that if repeated would be really worrying.
Watching back the game once the dust had settled, I don't remember ever seeing a team in the premier league playing with such inept and bizarre tactics...ever. It sounds crazy but after watching for only 5 or so minutes it was pretty clear that our tactic was to pump the ball long from the back to the either full back area (not even to our player) and then try to win the ball high up.
By doing this we were then asking the midfielders to try to pick up the second balls so we could attack from higher up the pitch
It's an incredibly poor way to attack. Those long balls are exactly what the defenders enjoy defending against, especially when there is no big lump of a striker challenging them for the ball. None of our midfield three are suited to winning those second balls, the full backs can't really get up and be involved and we aren't creating any overloads, catching players out of position etc. Just incredibly frustrating to watch. But even without taking into account all of the ways we could better attack it also caused us all sorts of defensive problems that seemed to be compounded by some really bizarre defensive structures and decisions.
We tried to attack the wide areas but and the midfield got spread but when we defended, we defended from the front with two very narrow and flat lines of 3. It looked as if the players were consciously trying to remain in those tight lines of 3 but the problem was that the ball was played so long from the back that we were really stretched from back to front. The midfield 3 tried to drop back as it looked like that was the instruction when play broke down
That made it incredibly easy for Arsenal to break and play between the lines. Our midfielders were having to always play defending back toward the goal (which really doesn't suit Hojbjerg at all who is much more of a progressive hunter gatherer attacking the ball in front of him - when it gets behind him he looks completely lost as he did over and over again at the weekend)
Or on some occasions Arsenal would actually keep the ball at the back and Kane would randomly try and press (yeh it did happen but it was really inconsistent and there was done in isolation)
Combining that press with our flat midfield dropping off meant the pocket of space in front of midfield was enormous giving Partey and Odergaard as much time as they could possibly want to play through the midfield. The defence would then have to step out to try to win the ball when played into Aubamayang and just made it incredibly easy to cut us open with runs from the midfield (with our midfielders not seeming to know whether they should be keeping the structure or hurrying back. Sounds like a joke but that honestly how it appeared). If we are going to press we also need to squeeze up the defensive line to avoid some of those pockets of space.
From both an attacking and defensive standpoint it was an absolute disaster. We got much better when Skipp came on and we had both he and Hojbjerg sitting in front of the defensive and we actually played out through them but we also stopped inviting pressure because that space just wasn't available. It's something that we should really be trying to build off moving forward.
Skipp is really good at marshalling this area. He doesn't always win the ball but he is pretty happy moving across the full width of the pitch to help out full backs. With him deeper and controlling this space it then allows the other 2 in the middle to actually move out and try and win the ball rather than being caught running backwards especially as this slows the opposition down as the space isn't so obviously available to play into. He is then available to play out to easily when we are in possession and advance the ball as well as have shorter passes into either the other midfielders or out to the full backs (likely via other midfielders)
It also allows our defence to push up and for a guy like Romero to really step out and be aggressive and win the ball being played into those areas as we have the extra man that can slot in if necessary.
Similarly I think we can press much better from the front with two up top harrying the opposition if we have the 3rd forward deeper to prevent the easy out balls into the space in front of the midfield. Whether that is a Lo Celso or a Gil (who definitely has the work ethic to cover the space) it again slows down the opposition distribution and would allow those midfielders like Hojbjerg and Ndombele to come up and help press the opposition or pick up the extra men rather than just staying in a flat line "keeping a structure".
It was honestly inexplicable and I hope we never see that kind of tactic again. It doesn't suit the talent in our midfield who can absolutely pass and create from the middle if we win balls in the middle (as with the Kane goal vs wolves with the nice build up and through ball right through the middle of the park). It doesn't suit our full backs who can't get involved and then get exposed when we are broken on quickly. It doesn't suit Kane who was really keeping his higher up position but is far more special of a player when he engages the defence and then pulls deeper off them (as Aubamayang did for Arsenal and exposed us) because defenders just can't follow him. Kane dropping off would also allow that number 10 position to get beyond him and cause defences and deeper midfielders issues with tracking the right men. It doesn't suit Son or Lucas who have to try to win long balls and can't ever get in beyond Kane and it certainly doesn't suit our defence who have no cover and get broken on at pace.
Just a disaster that if repeated would be really worrying.
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Tottenham_God
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- Nov 6, 2011
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Very strange, can you steel man Nunos thinking implementing these tactics ? I can't.
Totally agree that midfield seems so blindingly sensible and obvious. It actually looks like an EPL midfield and capable of defending, controlling possession and linking with the attack. Just unexplainable Nuno wouldn’t go there.
The fact that we have not seen it tried by Nuno is hard to understand and based on the value he placed on Dele doing a marathon runners job in midfield while adding nothing in term of having a functioning midfield.
Disagree, I think we have the right players to play midfield in a 4-3-3 but it needs Nuno to accept Skipp as the anchor with PEH and GLC either side.
The concern I have with a formation with 3 CBs is that our CBs while plentiful are unreliable. The thought of having three of these guys is scary. Do we have the personnel to play 3 at back.
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