SC's Tactical Autopsy thread

[13VanDerBale13]

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[BringBack_leGin]

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Needs the context for this mostly taking place while playing in Jose’s 8-1-1 formation.

 

[13VanDerBale13]

Needs the context for this mostly taking place while playing in Jose’s 8-1-1 formation.

Not exactly creating chances for fun under Nuno either so far ?

 

[dudu]

Just posted something similar in another thread but this is probably an equally good place for it:

After watching the match against Chelsea again here is my thought...

Nuno set up the team really well to create an extra man in the midfield by either GLC or Kane taking it in turns to drop deep from a 4-3-2-1 and it worked. Every time Kane or GLC dropped deep to create an extra man a Chelsea CB had to follow him, we would then use our extra CM (usually Ndombele) to play through Son into the open space. Nuno should be given credit for that because it almost worked against a team that was much better and had stronger depth!

We were pressing high in the first half especially around Jorginho and stopped them building any momentum and creating some half chances at the same time, one that Son should have scored from.

In the second half, Kante was the extra man in the middle so couldnt create that overload and find space. Tuchel used his bench to input more energy and change the dynamics of the match., thats why he's a great manager. Unfortunately for us and Nuno, we didnt have anything on the bench (due to injuries and lack of squad depth) so I doubt Nuno would have been able to do much else.

A take away from this match, for me, is that with Kane playing in the LWF role instead of the CF I suspect Nuno fully expected Kane to be sold this summer. You could see from our front line (Lucas, Bergwijn and Son) in the first match that we pressed the same all the way across but because of Kane's lack of pace and perhaps application our press is somewhat uneven (also makes sense why we were so keen on the hardworking Traore). Nuno probably had a picture in his head of how he would make us a front foot pressing team with 3 pacy forwards but with Kane staying he is having to change the approach because it makes the team unbalanced.

Another is that our fullbacks were really not taking risks in getting forward and playing the pass/cross and slowly our forwards stopped getting into the box (especially Kane). When the player flood the box Reguilon and Emerson should be playing in that cross but it didnt happen.

Really great post mate - thanks for this and it reflects my own thoughts on the game.

We really did match them quite well in the first half and I was really encouraged not just by our press but ability to get in behind them.

 

[Blake Griffin]

what i picture when i think of 433 done right

Spoiler

what we got today

Spoiler

 

[mpickard2087]

Yeah, I mean a starting point to trying to play some football would be if we weren't so fucking narrow, especially our forward line, every single game. It worked vs. City to have three speedsters close together to counter attack, but in possession just makes it easy for the opposition to crowd us out and ensures we can't progress the ball anywhere. Our only width comes if the fullbacks manage to eventually rumble forward.

 

[theShiznit]

You can use whatever system you like but put together a group of players that just pass once then stand still to watch and you will get what we have for the last three years; terrible football.
Our players don't have the mobility, agility, touch or awareness to play decent football, and I can't see the most progressive coach changing that.
You can watch some of the worst (on paper) premiership sides and they still have 2 or 3 options when players receive the ball, we are lucky if we have one option without having to beat a man.
We don't move players around we don't create space or angles for passes with movement and our first time passing is non existent (but that's possibly due to the aforementioned) and when our players do receive the ball quickly or in unusual positions they tend to panic due to no picture of who or what is around them so often turn into trouble, slow it down or pass backwards.
Also oximoronically our players are either on top of each other or isolated!

In short too many of our players actively hamper our "football"

 

[Bobbins]

If he was still here I think BC would be in need of his own autopsy after that.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Unlocking this is like finding a fingernail in a bolognese for 6.

 

[Tottenham_God]

How is it possible a professional football manager could play Alli as a CM ? Tactical suicide

 

[rio bryan]

Yeah, I mean a starting point to trying to play some football would be if we weren't so fucking narrow, especially our forward line, every single game. It worked vs. City to have three speedsters close together to counter attack, but in possession just makes it easy for the opposition to crowd us out and ensures we can't progress the ball anywhere. Our only width comes if the fullbacks manage to eventually rumble forward.

Did you not see the post above, part of the problem is the midfield three being so far apart instead of being close together, compact and thus harder to play through, i just can't see what we gain having the two outside mids playing so wide !

 

[Sophos151]

Did you not see the post above, part of the problem is the midfield three being so far apart instead of being close together, compact and thus harder to play through, i just can't see what we gain having the two outside mids playing so wide !

We’re somehow too wide in buildup, then too narrow once we’re in the opposition third. It’s comically bad.

 

[idontgetit]

what i picture when i think of 433 done right

Spoiler

View attachment 97191

what we got today

Spoiler

View attachment 97192

Winner except the fucked up thing is that it's even weirder than that. 20 and 27 were the other way around. The RCM (Alli was strolling around like a second striker off the right of Kane and Moura was tucking in (albeit higher up than shown in the diagram.)

 

[idontgetit]

Skipp and Hojberg seem perfect as a double pivot. You could play 4-2-3-1 or even 4-4-2 using Gil and Moura as wingers and letting Kane drop off. The problem is if one gets injured there's no like for like replacement.

Without Bale and Lamela we seem to have lost our best two natural RWF's and it makes 4-3-3 less attractive, especially given PEH's dysmal show at CDM and inability of Lo Celso and N'dombele to get in gear.

 

[Danny1]

The worrying thing is that I don't believe tactics would massively improve a lot of these players. We have so many players who are technically inept that it wouldn't matter what tactics were being deployed. We need to rid our team of these sub par players. The team, for me, going forward should be:

Lloris

Emerson
Romero
Rodon
Reguilon

Skipp
Hojbjerg
Lo Celso

Gil
Son
Kane

All of these players are able to play actual football & stick to a system when asked by other managers (both Hojbjerg & Lo Celso excel for their countries).

Once this team is in place, then play an aggressive brand of football with Skipp sitting just infront of the back two, which would allow both Emerson & Reguilon to get forward to support the attacks. Gil is very comfortable on the ball & could play well with Emerson on the right & Lo Celso could help out Reguilon when attacking aswell. This would leave us with Son & Kane as the primary frontmen & we all know how dangerous they can be.

When defending, we could then get back to a rigid shape with Gil on the right, Son on the left with a strong midfield 3 who all work hard & can instigate quick attacks once we break. Lo Celso has shown a number of times for us that he can break quickly & be part of a counter attack or be on the end of it. He has a good engine. He also shows this for Argentina on a regular basis to great success.

What we currently have is a lot of plodders who aren't great on the ball, and also don't work overly hard. Dele, Ndombele, and Lucas constantly either slow down the play or lose the ball. This just invites a huge amount of pressure on to us and ultimately we will concede because of this.

Going forward we need to stop targetting footballers who are incapable of following instructions, and those that just do not have the ability to simply control and pass a football. Go back to our best team under Poch and pretty much every player was comfortable on the ball. The only exception being Dele but he was playing as a "ghost forward" then with Eriksen having the ability to pick him out continuously.

 

[DEFchenkOE]

The worrying thing is that I don't believe tactics would massively improve a lot of these players. We have so many players who are technically inept that it wouldn't matter what tactics were being deployed. We need to rid our team of these sub par players. The team, for me, going forward should be:

Lloris

Emerson
Romero
Rodon
Reguilon

Skipp
Hojbjerg
Lo Celso

Gil
Son
Kane

All of these players are able to play actual football & stick to a system when asked by other managers (both Hojbjerg & Lo Celso excel for their countries).

Once this team is in place, then play an aggressive brand of football with Skipp sitting just infront of the back two, which would allow both Emerson & Reguilon to get forward to support the attacks. Gil is very comfortable on the ball & could play well with Emerson on the right & Lo Celso could help out Reguilon when attacking aswell. This would leave us with Son & Kane as the primary frontmen & we all know how dangerous they can be.

When defending, we could then get back to a rigid shape with Gil on the right, Son on the left with a strong midfield 3 who all work hard & can instigate quick attacks once we break. Lo Celso has shown a number of times for us that he can break quickly & be part of a counter attack or be on the end of it. He has a good engine. He also shows this for Argentina on a regular basis to great success.

What we currently have is a lot of plodders who aren't great on the ball, and also don't work overly hard. Dele, Ndombele, and Lucas constantly either slow down the play or lose the ball. This just invites a huge amount of pressure on to us and ultimately we will concede because of this.

Going forward we need to stop targetting footballers who are incapable of following instructions, and those that just do not have the ability to simply control and pass a football. Go back to our best team under Poch and pretty much every player was comfortable on the ball. The only exception being Dele but he was playing as a "ghost forward" then with Eriksen having the ability to pick him out continuously.

The problem is, we line up 433 on paper, but Nuno seems clueless as to what positions these players should be taking up. Yesterday, we had Lucas our right winger, picking up the ball so deep and trying to be the playmaker. We have Dele and Ndombele completely vacating the midfield, and Hojberg whose positioning as the sole cdm is extremely questionable. For me Skipp is the better cdm. But if Hojberg is to be played it should be as part of a double-pivot or on the right of a cm3.

Our midfield is a massive disaster, but the positions that our attackers take up also makes us easy to defend against. None of them really make runs in behind off the ball. Kane is slowing the play down as much as anyone and trying to be the selfish hero.

 

[Nick-TopSpursMan]

what i picture when i think of 433 done right

Spoiler

View attachment 97191

what we got today

Spoiler

View attachment 97192

Spot on.

Genuinely the worst coached 433 I have ever seen.

 

[idontgetit]

The problem is, we line up 433 on paper, but Nuno seems clueless as to what positions these players should be taking up. Yesterday, we had Lucas our right winger, picking up the ball so deep and trying to be the playmaker. We have Dele and Ndombele completely vacating the midfield, and Hojberg whose positioning as the sole cdm is extremely questionable. For me Skipp is the better cdm. But if Hojberg is to be played it should be as part of a double-pivot or on the right of a cm3.

Our midfield is a massive disaster, but the positions that our attackers take up also makes us easy to defend against. None of them really make runs in behind off the ball. Kane is slowing the play down as much as anyone and trying to be the selfish hero.

PEH is a clever player though it and just seems odd he was so far out of position yesterday, it was like he was being told to get up the pitch.

 

[mpickard2087]

PEH is a clever player though it and just seems odd he was so far out of position yesterday, it was like he was being told to get up the pitch.

He's getting a lot of stick about yesterday (and the first goal was very very bad, don't get me wrong) but most of the problems weren't his making. He had players in front of him not pressing, oceans of space either side of him, Arsenal just progressing the ball forward at will, and multiple runners in and around him that he had no chance of dealing with.

Where he did cause some issue was that then his instinct, as usual, was to charge out and try and press in desperation and make something happen. This just made things worse, he had no hope of effecting these plays, and any last semblance of midfield resistance was lost as they easily bypassed him.

Sometimes you just have to hold your position and/or drop off, buy some time, and pray help arrives or the opposition fucks it up. He didn't help himself or the team in his choices but he had little to no chance in any case.

 

[idontgetit]

He's getting a lot of stick about yesterday (and the first goal was very very bad, don't get me wrong) but most of the problems weren't his making. He had players in front of him not pressing, oceans of space either side of him, Arsenal just progressing the ball forward at will, and multiple runners in and around him that he had no chance of dealing with.

Where he did cause some issue was that then his instinct, as usual, was to charge out and try and press in desperation and make something happen. This just made things worse, he had no hope of effecting these plays, and any last semblance of midfield resistance was lost as they easily bypassed him.

Sometimes you just have to hold your position and/or drop off, buy some time, and pray help arrives or the opposition fucks it up. He didn't help himself or the team in his choices but he had little to no chance in any case.

Sorry but that's not quite right, he absolutely was out of position for the central player of a CM3. He wasn't there to screen the back four on a number of occasions including their first two goals.

My opinion was that he had been told to play higher up, not that it's him being awful. I think he would be a very good CDM if coached appropriately.