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4-2-3-1, responsibility and fluidity

Krafty

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2004
4,781
2,108
What is our biggest flaw at the moment? Average players? Lack of real squad depth? Emmanuel Adebayor?

Like most things in life, there is no one reason why Tottenham are not playing as well as they can and should. Some players are performing well individually but great performance comes when the collective works together, when the team is better than the sum of its parts.

A 4-2-3-1 can work very well, like any formation given the right circumstances. However what strikes me about Pochettino's current set up is that there is not enough individual responsibility, and not enough fluidity to establish collective responsibility. Basically, while the players seem to get on well with each other, they are not operating as a team.

Full backs get exposed, the defence gets over run, the central midfielders are isolated, attackers are not supported, and Kane can be on his own. In both attack and defence we can look a man short (even before Vlad or Fazio get sent off), and while I totally believe Poch needs time and to get his own players, that he has not been able to get some semblance of cohesion with his preferred starting XI nor shown willingness to try a different formation and tactics.

The key area

Midfield starts and supports the attack, and helps the defence stop the opposition. Too often we have two players in this key area, often outnumbered at least 3 vs 2, sometimes more when the opponent's wide or forward players drop deep.

Not an issue as Poch wants us to press from the front, but the team is too rigid in this respect. Eriksen, Chadli and Lamela do not push right up with Kane to press the opposition back to their keeper. Nor do they drop back and help the two central midfielders or the defence. Because we aren't pressing properly, Mason and Bentaleb are afraid to leave the defence, but neither takes responsibility for being THE shield for the defence while the other pushes up to help the pressing.

Once our four forward players, neither being balls out attackers nor midfielders who try to support a loan striker, are bypassed/don't bother to track back, its the opposition versus our back 4 and two central midfielders.

The full backs get pulled wider than they should because they are the only person who is in the vicinity of the oppo's winger/wide forward, the central midfielders get pulled here and there trying to close down those in possession before its too late while also trying to fill in the now gaping holes around our centre backs, while the centre backs panic because they can't drop back - what's the point, they will be the only two players who are dropping back - and they can't play offside because there is so much space for the opposition to run and pass into.

End result

Going forward, we've been alright - we can be better, especially against very defensive sides. More players need to commit themselves forward, while one of the central midfielders (probably Bentaleb unless we get a true deep lying playmaker) has to be the pivot from which the other midfielders and attackers work from.

Defensively, we are increasingly a shambles, liable to a collective and individual cock up and I believe this is because there is not enough confidence or plain understanding of how we are meant to defend, as a team, in pairs/sectors/individually. Panic sets in, we are not playing intuitively but having to react, and when you have little time to think against high quality opposition you will get exposed before you know it.

Each player needs to know their role, each group (defence, midfield, attack) needs to know their role, and the team as a whole has to know their role. That requires time, and I'm willing to give Poch time, but its something I need to see progressing when we kick off the next season. A squad that is....better, to put it simply, should help, but I hope Poch also grows into the role and his methods are both the right ones, and work.

COYS!
 

benski

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2006
574
825
great post, really good summary of our problems. seems like the whole system breaks down if we don't press properly up top.

gone past the point of being able to understand if its one or many elements but we are struggling big time no doubt about that. roll on summer!
 

TheAmerican

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2012
6,913
18,761
I still think we'd be better off in a 4312 or a diamond 4222. We don't have players who can naturally provide width. We should control the middle of the park and allow our creative players to move into space.

All we do now is start off in space on the wings and collapse to the middle. I think we'd be better off starting off in the middle and moving outwards for space. I know that sounds over simplified, but it can be that easy sometimes.
 

Syn_13

Fly On, Little Wing
Jul 17, 2008
14,852
20,661
Well, when we signed this crop of players under AVB, I thought we were going to see a Chelsea-esque fludity arise out of our 4-2-3-1. The way Oscar, Mata and Hazard were playing a couple of seasons backs was phenomenal, and going into that window I thought the likes of Chadli, Eriksen, Lamela and Holtby were going to provide this sort of play. A fluid formation where the 3 behind the striker swap positions and do their part in creating and finishing goal scoring opportunities.

Clearly this doesn't work with our team, we're just not set up for it. We don't quite have the centre mids to pull it off right now. Look at Chelsea's current crop. Without Fabregas pulling the strings and being the metronome, and Matic mopping everything up and doing the dirty work, they wouldn't have won that title. Those 2 were paramount to their success (albeit they still had great quality in Hazard and Costa). Years ago we had Modric, Parker and Sandro, and I long for these players in this team that we have now. They would've made a real difference. Parker and Sandro were perfect for getting stuck in and providing the midfield with some raw energy and grit. And you can forget Bale, as outstanding as he was losing Modric hit us harder.
 

SargeantMeatCurtains

Your least favourite poster
Jan 5, 2013
11,765
61,763
1. Failure to find a good enough player to partner Vertonghen.

2. Ryan Mason being bang average. He is a HUGE part of what is wrong right now. His ability to completely expose our defence is staggering.

3. Failure to buy a ball playing holding midfielder.

4. Failure to sign any out and out wingers.
 

Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
19,277
57,638
If we are going to play 2 in CM they need to be outstanding all round players. Mason is way off that level and Bentaleb needs to develop some defensive sense. They would both be alright with a proper holding player in the middle but as it stands our CM is weak as piss. The players in front have also been totally inept at pressing as a unit which compounds the glaring defensive weaknesses we are suffering.
 

Krafty

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2004
4,781
2,108
I see Bentaleb being a box to box midfielder - the way he can glide forward with the ball, his passing and crossing ability and with a decent strike on him, I think he could be very productive there. I don't think he has the vision for playing a deeper role, which the 2 CMs at the moment often do and often do at the same time, getting us nowhere but square and backwards.

We badly need a deep lying playmaker, who takes responsibility from getting the ball from the defence and moving us into the opposition's half swiftly, then acts as the pivot for the rest of the midfield and attack to work from and run off of.

I think a big issue for Poch is Eriksen. His Southampton side had Lallana who was a lot more comfortable in wide positions, burst past the striker, and flitted in and out of that central position. Eriksen, when played centrally, stays there much more and with inverted wingers and two 2 CMs behind him, it gets awfully clogged up.

Eriksen has to play, given his quality, but he should either be the 1 in a 4-2-1-3, or as one of two CMs in a 4-1-2-2-1/4-1-2-3. Others need to provide width and forward running rather than a central threat so Eriksen flourishes.
 

idontgetit

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2011
14,493
31,029
All it needs is to play 3 in the middle, teach the wide forwards better movement, and keep the back four stable.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
4231 isn't the problem per se, or wouldn't be so much of a problem if Pochettino got the four forward players working properly and cohesively.

That doesn't alter the fact that the players we have would be better suited to a 433. Lamela and Chadli are both wide forwards really, Mason and Bentaleb would be able to link and join in attackes if playing off a central pivotal DM. The full backs would be better covered when springing forward and the cb's woul have better protection.

We'd still need Pochettino to be able to get players working more coherently than he has managed so far though
 

Tel Boy

Active Member
Jan 2, 2007
135
181
1. Failure to find a good enough player to partner Vertonghen.

2. Ryan Mason being bang average. He is a HUGE part of what is wrong right now. His ability to completely expose our defence is staggering.

3. Failure to buy a ball playing holding midfielder.

4. Failure to sign any out and out wingers.

We had access to two wingers in Townsend and Lennon, neither have been used extensively. Cant see MP changing his mind and signing any out and out wingers :(
 

Everlasting Seconds

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2014
14,914
26,616
4231 isn't the problem per se, or wouldn't be so much of a problem if Pochettino got the four forward players working properly and cohesively.

That doesn't alter the fact that the players we have would be better suited to a 433. Lamela and Chadli are both wide forwards really, Mason and Bentaleb would be able to link and join in attackes if playing off a central pivotal DM. The full backs would be better covered when springing forward and the cb's woul have better protection.

We'd still need Pochettino to be able to get players working more coherently than he has managed so far though
We also need at least 1 experienced beast of a midfielder, who would relish in the possibility to boss all the space our CM's get. Maybe a guy who is not too old, who is happily on board with Pochettino's methods, and who is hungry for a fresh challenge, and sees Spurs fitting that bill. PL experience and CL ambitions wouldn't be bad either.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
We also need at least 1 experienced beast of a midfielder, who would relish in the possibility to boss all the space our CM's get. Maybe a guy who is not too old, who is happily on board with Pochettino's methods, and who is hungry for a fresh challenge, and sees Spurs fitting that bill. PL experience and CL ambitions wouldn't be bad either.


Here's the thing. I can't think of loads of players who would be better in the CM3 central spot, that we would/could afford, that would come to us etc than Capoue. The guys not perfect but who is, that we could afford and would come to us.

I guess that ship has sailed as Pochettino seems unable to forgive whatever it is Capoue did.

Failing that I'd really like to see Voljkovic given a chance in the centre of the 3.
 

Everlasting Seconds

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2014
14,914
26,616
Here's the thing. I can't think of loads of players who would be better in the CM3 central spot, that we would/could afford, that would come to us etc than Capoue. The guys not perfect but who is, that we could afford and would come to us.

I guess that ship has sailed as Pochettino seems unable to forgive whatever it is Capoue did.

Failing that I'd really like to see Voljkovic given a chance in the centre of the 3.
If we are talking a CM 3, our problems are already solved. We wouldn't even need to sign anybody.
However, that would encompass hiring a new head coach. :(
 

yido_number1

He'll always be magic
Jun 8, 2004
8,670
16,854
We could do with one or two additions to the squad that have some real pace. We have traditionally been at our best breaking at speed and countering teams. We're far too slow moving forwards these days.
 
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