An apology to Didier Zokora

[Beni]

Great observations and opinions on here as ever.

 

[DFF]

He's good at giving away needless freekicks to the other team, wait, that's a bad thing isn't it? Damn.

He's won twice as many free kicks as he's given away (41 to 20). Compare that with Flamini (seeing as people like to trot his name out a lot) who's earned ~half as many as he's conceded (27 to 49). Flamini and Zokora have virtually identical passing accuracy. And, yes, Flamini makes the exact same kind of passes Zokora does. When will people get it into their heads that Carrick and Huddlestone these players are not, and nor is it their job to be those type of players. Yes, Flamini has the creative edge, but, again, that's a luxury for a proper DM. And not a common one at that. Keeping on the Zokora-Flamini tack, Zokora has more tackles won per game and a much better tackle success rate than Flamini.

No, Zokora's not amazing or necessarily even a part of the solution to our CM problem. But to say he's underrated is an understatement.

 

[padgateyids]

I remember a while ago a discussion regarding Pedro Mendes and even Sean Davis as better players than most of our current midfielders and that we should have hanged to the Portuguese at least. I agreed as well that Zokora was by no means better than Mendes, but after watching them face to face last weekend I must say that they are different players. While Zokora might lack some of Mendes' passing ability and skill, he is a superior defensive midfielder in a 442 system mainly because of his athleticism, multiple positional functionality, tenacity and his forward runs and pace fit the Premiership much better.

Summarizing, he might be less classy and composed than the Portuguese or Sean Davis (his chipping lob wasn't bad), but I feel Zokora could become a bigger asset to the team as a whole. That midfield of Kranjcar, Davis, Mendes and Hughes could have been something similar to what we had 4 years ago and our current players proved that they are better than that.


Zoko wouldnt get in the pompey midfield and that midfield they had on sat was understrength no diarra, diop or muntari.
So our midfield is not as storng as pompeys this is the key area to improve.

 

[rsmith]

... and distributing the ball with intelligence and pulchritude.

Do you really mean "pulchritude"? Don't get me wrong, it's a woody word, and great to hear it again (last time was 3rd form Latin). But I gotta say, it's a bit gay applying it to Zoko.

Anyways, big up for Zoko,and rep for chileanspursfan for taking me back 30+ years.

 

[Bulletspur]

I'm gradually revising my opinion upwards of DZ, though I'm still not convinced that he's the best player to start in mid when all our players like JJ Hudd TT O'Hara are fit and available, but if JR thinks he is that's good enough for me

What?!! No mention of Berbatov? You losing your touch DC, not being able to turn the discussion round to Berby!

 

[stemark44]

I always find this 4-3-3 an odd idea for the players we have. are we going to play 3 strikers- Bent, Berbs and Keane ? Is that going to give us any width ? It seems to me to be a tactic we use when we fall behind and bring on a 3rd striker usually sacrificing Lennon. Playing Keane or Bent in a wide position is not a good use of their abilities. 4-3-3 as a variation of 4-5-1 can work with 2 attacking wide players as Chelsea proved with Robben- Drogba- Duff . So I suppose Lennon- Berbs- Bale is possible. But I'm not sure leaving out Keane effectively to accommodate Zokora makes any sense either. So to me it's a substitution tactic only.

Yes you are right,we currently do not have the right balance up front to play 4-3-3 as I have stated in another thread,all of our strikers like to play in the centre.
We need to buy a left sided and a right sided winger/striker for the system to work.
I know replacing Keano with Zokora will not help us score a lot of goals but it is'nt scoring goals that has contributed to us languishing in 11th place,its conceding them!

 

[AW?]

He's won twice as many free kicks as he's given away (41 to 20). Compare that with Flamini (seeing as people like to trot his name out a lot) who's earned ~half as many as he's conceded (27 to 49). Flamini and Zokora have virtually identical passing accuracy. And, yes, Flamini makes the exact same kind of passes Zokora does. When will people get it into their heads that Carrick and Huddlestone these players are not, and nor is it their job to be those type of players. Yes, Flamini has the creative edge, but, again, that's a luxury for a proper DM. And not a common one at that. Keeping on the Zokora-Flamini tack, Zokora has more tackles won per game and a much better tackle success rate than Flamini.

No, Zokora's not amazing or necessarily even a part of the solution to our CM problem. But to say he's underrated is an understatement.

I didn't say he was or should be either of those players.

What i do know is he's not good enough for us if we want to progress that's all.

It's simple.

 

[AW?]

He's good at falling over and landing on top of the ball. It seems to be an unwritten rule that players who fall over and land on top of the ball always win a free kick. I'd go so far as to say he's the best in the Prem at it.

Er, yeah... that's about it.

Yep that's another.

He's certainly not very good at diving though, he goes way over the top.

 

[DFF]

I didn't say he was or should be either of those players.

I didn't say you did say that. I merely responded to your freekicks remark with the fouls stats, then moved on. :shrug:

 

[AW?]

I didn't say you did say that. I merely responded to your freekicks remark with the fouls stats, then moved on. :shrug:

Fair enough, i just thought you were implying we all ( the non fans) think he needs to be something he's not. A totally different player. His duty as a DM is fine as it is. The simple stuff and all the rest of it, i just think we could and need to do better than him.

He is very reckless though in my opinion. Incredibly so.

 

[JJetset]

Great box to box player as stated prior and a fantastic athlete with massive stamina now in my previous comments if you actually give him the ball he is dire.

 

[SpurSince57]

Great box to box player as stated prior and a fantastic athlete with massive stamina now in my previous comments if you actually give him the ball he is dire.

No, he isn't, and that's where the problem started, with people raving about his runs last season—although it was largely overlooked that these seldom amounted to anything very much, highly eye-catching as they can be. But give him a strictly limited defensive role, and he does it rather well; his best performances last season were probably those in which he played at the back of a diamond.

Last season the Zokora-Huddlestone combination in CM was pretty disastrous, forced on Jol because they were at times the last men standing; suddenly, it's looking as if it might develop into a highly effective one, possibly the first choice for the remainder of the season.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

He's won twice as many free kicks as he's given away (41 to 20). Compare that with Flamini (seeing as people like to trot his name out a lot) who's earned ~half as many as he's conceded (27 to 49). Flamini and Zokora have virtually identical passing accuracy. And, yes, Flamini makes the exact same kind of passes Zokora does. When will people get it into their heads that Carrick and Huddlestone these players are not, and nor is it their job to be those type of players. Yes, Flamini has the creative edge, but, again, that's a luxury for a proper DM. And not a common one at that. Keeping on the Zokora-Flamini tack, Zokora has more tackles won per game and a much better tackle success rate than Flamini.

No, Zokora's not amazing or necessarily even a part of the solution to our CM problem. But to say he's underrated is an understatement.

And Flamini also has the luxury of playing in a midfield 5 most weeks with some better players than Zokora has had to play with most of the time.

I really think many on here underestimate how difficult it is to play in a midfield four against a midfield 5 most weeks. when for most of the last 18 months the defenders behind you were a bit shit, the strikers ahead of you had a tendancy to be a bit work shy and the wingers either side of you were often playing out of position.

Stoof,
you keep comparing him to Viera or carrick, but they cost double (age 31) and treble what he cost. Carrick has hardly blazed a trail at ManU has he. Doesn't start every game, gets subbed nearly every time see them and can't remember a single blinding game he's had for them, can you ? How disapointed and divided do you think Manu forums are over ther 18million pound player ?

I know we can do better than nearly all our players but it really isn't going to be easy to find a midfielder with the qualities to play in a 4, be better at everything than Zokora and cost 6/7 million is it ?

I could understand this division of opinion if most of you had been watching Viera for the lst few years but how the fuck can you still be caling Zokora shit when you've watched some of the real shit ****'s that have pulled on our jersey over the last 10. ??

For the umpteenth time, we can sign a better player on the basis that he isn't very top drawer but he is a very good footballer with a very good all round set of skills. he tackles, he intercepts, he has the best pass completion rate of any midfielder in the EPL (or close), he has a 90 min engine, he's quick, time and time again he's there making last ditch saving tackles or interceptions.

FFS how many CM's have we had in the last few years that even come close to that ? seriously ? Sherwood, Freund ? Sedgely, Howells ? Mendes, Davis, Browne ??

Get real fella's. think it through.

 

[lukespurs7]

Zokora is a good defensive midfielder, nothing more nothing less and never will be. If he had Gerrard along side him he'd look fucking amazing just like Makalele does with Lampard. If he played in a 4-5-1 he'd also look amazing like Makalele does. In a 4-4-2 as the defensive midfielder he needs a creative attacking CM to go with him otherwsie he is criticised for not doing the creating and things he isn't required to do. His job is to protect the back for, break up play and keep the team ticking along filling in defensive holes, winning tackles, intercepting and playing good solid simples passes, and for doing this he is a good player and has got better as time has gone on.

ZOKORA is a better defensive midfielder than Mendes. Mendes is a better all-round midfielder than Zokora.
ZOKORA isn't as good as Carrick but he's not far off as a defensive midfielder.
ZOKORA is a decent player but needs a class attacking creative CM along side him otherwise he is exposed.

 

[SpurSince57]

Yes, I've got to admit I've really come round to Zoko over the past few weeks. As a like-for-like Carrick replacement, he's been a dud; as a DM with a limited role sweeping in front of the back four he's starting to look the genuine article. On Saturday he largely strangled the supply to Kanu, and on the main occasion that he didn't he was there to cover for Robbo's fluff. What more do you want?

You may rightly complain that it's taken a player who was supposed to be an out-of-the-box ready-to-run top-class midfielder a season and a half to start looking the part, but it seems to me that he's doing a more than decent job now.

(B-C, point of information: Carrick has had more starts, and more time on the pitch, than United's other main midfielders. This is partly due to odd injuries, but it seems to me that Fergie is happy to rotate Carrick with Hargreaves, Scholes and Anderson, with the likes of Fletcher and O'Shea putting in the odd appearance. The difference between them and us seems to be that any CM combination works effectively.)

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Yes, I've got to admit I've really come round to Zoko over the past few weeks. As a like-for-like Carrick replacement, he's been a dud; as a DM with a limited role sweeping in front of the back four he's starting to look the genuine article. On Saturday he largely strangled the supply to Kanu, and on the main occasion that he didn't he was there to cover for Robbo's fluff. What more do you want?

You may rightly complain that it's taken a player who was supposed to be an out-of-the-box ready-to-run top-class midfielder a season and a half to start looking the part, but it seems to me that he's doing a more than decent job now.

(B-C, point of information: Carrick has had more starts, and more time on the pitch, than United's other main midfielders. This is partly due to odd injuries, but it seems to me that Fergie is happy to rotate Carrick with Hargreaves, Scholes and Anderson, with the likes of Fletcher and O'Shea putting in the odd appearance. The difference between them and us seems to be that any CM combination works effectively.)

But in all honesty SS, most of our CM combinations work pretty well. They got us to 5th last year and a couple of qf's. They have seen us play even better football this year. outplaying Arse and chelsea and giving ManU a real good game a couple of times. And but for conceding 50% of all our goals from set pieces (a real stat I heard on saturday) we would surely be right up Liverpools Jacksy where on football ability we currently belong.

 

[SpurSince57]

I'd say they don't work (or haven't worked) that badly, but haven't really worked that well, either, or at least not on a consistent basis. In a lot of games this season and last our midfield has held its own, but rarely really imposed itself. The mere fact that there's been so much debate as to which is our most effective pairing bears that out.

It just seems to me that Ramos and Poyet have identified Zokora's strengths and weaknesses and played to the former; as a result, we've seen a steady improvement in his performance. By the same token, they've had no hesitation in dropping Jenas and giving Huddlestone the nod. One swallow doesn't make a summer and all that, and the acid test may be the Blackburn game (and trying to second-guess Ramos is a mug's game anyway), but from being the CM pairing everyone least wanted to see Hudd and Zoko could easily be first-choice until the end of the season.

 

[AW?]

I wonder if Ramos wants to strengthen massively in the middle of the park at the end of the season.

I wonder...

 

[SpurSince57]

Well, that's the general theory. All we know for certain is that the players have been told they have to prove they're worthy of being kept in the squad.

 

[Stoof]

People seem to think I'm saying he's shit - shock. I'm not, for the umpteenth time, saying that at all.

I'm saying he's a step down from Carrick - always has been. Hasn't gelled with any other midfielder. Yeah he's improved but as SS57 has said, it's taken him a season and a half to get anywhere near a consistent, acceptable level. That's not what was needed at the time, and I still don't think our midfield suits him. I think he limits whichever partner he plays with, and unless we're going to go fully Seville style [with two 'holders'] then I don't see a future for him at the Lane.

In a midfield 3 he has a future, but he just doesn't have enough of a skillset to be half of a central midfield 2. He asks too much of his partner each time. This is obviously all my opinion, and I accept others think otherwise [obviously!], however, I think he's been a revelation as a second half centre back and would actually like to see him there instead of other more conventional centre halves.

as a DM with a limited role sweeping in front of the back four he's starting to look the genuine article

Is that enough for a midfield 2? Not for me it isn't. And that's always been my point.