Are they uncoachable?

[DoublePivot]

:stupid:

So Jol and now Ramos have found it impossible to teach this team to

A) defend set pieces
B) defend distance shots
C) Play til the end

Jol might have been right that nobody could do better. Both he and Ramos might have a squad of players incapable of doing these simple things. And that's not to say that there isn't talent in the squad. There is talent, and while perhaps it's not the best talent for the tactical system we are playing, the talent is still enough to do such small things. Also, as much as it might be easy to complain about laziness, I don't think they are lazy. Perhaps Chimbonda doesn't get back on defense at times, but overall they work enough. Maybe not enough to make us top 4, but enough to be better than we are.

So maybe they are just dumb. And I'm being serious. Over and over we have talked about these three weaknesses and we must expect that both staffs knew/know about them. After a while, I have to wonder if this is just the dumbest team in the league, incapable of learning the most basic things. It takes intelligence to play this game, and perhaps this group of guys just don't have enough. A few dolts amidst the group is okay, but if they all lack intelligence, then it's a mess. Perhaps, we don't need a world class CM or a CB. Perhaps we just need one or two players with game intelligence. It just seems that this group will never learn.

 

[sammyboyspurs]

whoo hoo

 

[joey55]

I don't see what people expect the coach to do. There just aren't that many different way to defend set pieces. It's basic stuff that players are either good at or not. A simple look at recent Prem history will show you that deffensive improvement comes from signing new players, not coaching. This is the Prem, the highest level of football and set piece defending is one of the things learned at the lowest level of the game. There just isn't that much the coach can do about it. Any Fifa or Uefa coaching badge will ensure the coach knows the fundamentals of set piece defending, all he can do is pass this on to his team and select the right players. Today might be the first we've conceded for a while, but the actual defending hasn't been any better. Against Wham they were off target 3 times from set pieces and Anderlecht should have done better from corners aswell.

 

[Damian99]

You do have to wonder sometimes just what goes on. It is clear to everyman and his dog just what the problems are, i did used to question what Jol did during training sessions, in the way of addressing problem areas. But maybe the players just can`t grasp whats needed of them, as some of the things are that basic you`d see most of it on a sunday morning.

 

[Damian99]

I don't see what people expect the coach to do. There just aren't that many different way to defend set pieces. It's basic stuff that players are either good at or not. A simple look at recent Prem history will show you that deffensive improvement comes from signing new players, not coaching.

Its my opinion, even with a relatively average set of players under the right guidance can go far. How does a man like Alex Fergusson continue to be successful? Is it because he has all the best players in the world? and if so, why do you need Alex Fergusson then? What does he know or do, that others cannot? To be at the top, you need the right kind of players with the right mentality but also someone with some Tactical know how, otherwise we`d all be doing it, instead of pretending on Championship Manager.

 

[The Apprentice]

Not enough players really attack the ball with conviction. It's not really something you can teach. They either want to or they don't.

 

[joey55]

Its my opinion, even with a relatively average set of players under the right guidance can go far. How does a man like Alex Fergusson continue to be successful? Is it because he has all the best players in the world? and if so, why do you need Alex Fergusson then? What does he know or do, that others cannot? To be at the top, you need the right kind of players with the right mentality but also someone with some Tactical know how, otherwise we`d all be doing it, instead of pretending on Championship Manager.

Ferguson is arguably the least tactical manager in the Prem. Also he didn't win the title until he took himself off the training ground and brought in Brian Kidd. With Fergie doing the coaching Utd went from 2nd to finishing 11th and 14th. Fergie is superb at team building and the psycological side of the game. Look at Arsenal, the least tactical side in the Prem is sat top of the pile. Wenger isn't exactly a coach known for his tactical football. He is very much part of the Brian Clough and ALex Ferguson school of football. There are far more important things to developing a winning side than tactics. Chlesea are the only tactical team in the history of the Prem to have won it and they spent a fortune on players to do so. But that's all irrelevant anyway, as we are talking set peice defending and at this level, there really is only so much you can do on the training ground and it's pretty basic stuff.

 

[Juande_Ramos]

I don't see what people expect the coach to do. There just aren't that many different way to defend set pieces. It's basic stuff that players are either good at or not. A simple look at recent Prem history will show you that deffensive improvement comes from signing new players, not coaching. This is the Prem, the highest level of football and set piece defending is one of the things learned at the lowest level of the game. There just isn't that much the coach can do about it. Any Fifa or Uefa coaching badge will ensure the coach knows the fundamentals of set piece defending, all he can do is pass this on to his team and select the right players. Today might be the first we've conceded for a while, but the actual defending hasn't been any better. Against Wham they were off target 3 times from set pieces and Anderlecht should have done better from corners aswell.

And managers too. Get Souness at Tottenham. He's got his UEFA coaching badge and would coach the team for half the money :grin:

 

[Rupstoh]

Ferguson is arguably the least tactical manager in the Prem. Also he didn't win the title until he took himself off the training ground and brought in Brian Kidd. With Fergie doing the coaching Utd went from 2nd to finishing 11th and 14th. Fergie is superb at team building and the psycological side of the game. Look at Arsenal, the least tactical side in the Prem is sat top of the pile. Wenger isn't exactly a coach known for his tactical football. He is very much part of the Brian Clough and ALex Ferguson school of football. There are far more important things to developing a winning side than tactics. Chlesea are the only tactical team in the history of the Prem to have won it and they spent a fortune on players to do so. But that's all irrelevant anyway, as we are talking set peice defending and at this level, there really is only so much you can do on the training ground and it's pretty basic stuff.

Have you fallen over?

 

[Juande_Ramos]

Ferguson is arguably the least tactical manager in the Prem. Also he didn't win the title until he took himself off the training ground and brought in Brian Kidd. With Fergie doing the coaching Utd went from 2nd to finishing 11th and 14th. Fergie is superb at team building and the psycological side of the game. Look at Arsenal, the least tactical side in the Prem is sat top of the pile. Wenger isn't exactly a coach known for his tactical football. He is very much part of the Brian Clough and ALex Ferguson school of football. There are far more important things to developing a winning side than tactics. Chlesea are the only tactical team in the history of the Prem to have won it and they spent a fortune on players to do so. But that's all irrelevant anyway, as we are talking set peice defending and at this level, there really is only so much you can do on the training ground and it's pretty basic stuff.

His got a great assistant in Carlos Queiroz.

 

[joey55]

His got a great assistant in Carlos Queiroz.

And before that he had the same or more success with Steve McClaren, Brian Kidd and Archie Knox. Ferguson is the common denominator, not good coaches. I'm not saying saying coaching isn't an issue, but anyone who blames Ramos for toadys goal is just being naive. Things like marking up at set pieces and not letting runners get ahead of you is stuff that is learned at 16, not as a full time senior pro. The last goal we conceded under Jol from a set piece was virtually identical. The difference was then people blamed Jol for not having a man at the near post. But we often don't under Ramos either (as we saw today) and if everyone does their job then it shouldn't be a problem. People can ask why Bent was marking their striker, but again you can't blame Ramos for this. If we had an experienced CB oranising things he is the one that would make sure things like that don't happen. Our problems aren't going to be sorted out on the training ground, but in the transfer market.

 

[joey55]

And managers too. Get Souness at Tottenham. He's got his UEFA coaching badge and would coach the team for half the money :grin:

But despite his coaching badge, he'd probably buy Boumsong and Moore.

 

[rez9000]

After Man City scored, I found myself wondering if there was some fundamental flaw at Spurs, because yet again we fail miserably to defend our set pieces.

I keep having to tell myself to wait it out, give Ramos a chance to bring in more players, but running alongside that thought is one that asks if Ramos can't do that much better than Jol with the players at his disposal, shouldn't the club have been questioning our transfers rather than our manager? Shouldn't it have been someone else under the magnifying glass instead? And if that's so, shouldn't we be considering that problem NOW, before the transfer window, so we can ensure that any money we spend is spent wisely?

 

[Juande_Ramos]

But despite his coaching badge, he'd probably buy Boumsong and Moore.

Give him Baresi and Maldini and probably would make them look like Boumsong too.

 

[Juande_Ramos]

And before that he had the same or more success with Steve McClaren, Brian Kidd and Archie Knox. Ferguson is the common denominator, not good coaches. I'm not saying saying coaching isn't an issue, but anyone who blames Ramos for toadys goal is just being naive. Things like marking up at set pieces and not letting runners get ahead of you is stuff that is learned at 16, not as a full time senior pro. The last goal we conceded under Jol from a set piece was virtually identical. The difference was then people blamed Jol for not having a man at the near post. But we often don't under Ramos either (as we saw today) and if everyone does their job then it shouldn't be a problem. People can ask why Bent was marking their striker, but again you can't blame Ramos for this. If we had an experienced CB oranising things he is the one that would make sure things like that don't happen. Our problems aren't going to be sorted out on the training ground, but in the transfer market.

Partially true, again. You think that a good manager is just someone who is good at evaluating talent, and I disagree with that.

 

[joey55]

Partially true, again. You think that a good manager is just someone who is good at evaluating talent, and I disagree with that.

But I don't and i've told you that in previous threads. But in our particular circumstances it is important to highlight the limited impact a coach or new tactics are going to have. History in any walk of life, nearly always tells you where your problems are and football is no different.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

After Man City scored, I found myself wondering if there was some fundamental flaw at Spurs, because yet again we fail miserably to defend our set pieces.

I keep having to tell myself to wait it out, give Ramos a chance to bring in more players, but running alongside that thought is one that asks if Ramos can't do that much better than Jol with the players at his disposal, shouldn't the club have been questioning our transfers rather than our manager? Shouldn't it have been someone else under the magnifying glass instead? And if that's so, shouldn't we be considering that problem NOW, before the transfer window, so we can ensure that any money we spend is spent wisely?

Our DOF? :grin:

 

[stemark44]

After Man City scored, I found myself wondering if there was some fundamental flaw at Spurs, because yet again we fail miserably to defend our set pieces.

I keep having to tell myself to wait it out, give Ramos a chance to bring in more players, but running alongside that thought is one that asks if Ramos can't do that much better than Jol with the players at his disposal, shouldn't the club have been questioning our transfers rather than our manager? Shouldn't it have been someone else under the magnifying glass instead? And if that's so, shouldn't we be considering that problem NOW, before the transfer window, so we can ensure that any money we spend is spent wisely?

Thats exactly how he will be measured.Its obvious that Jol had a major input in the players we bought and even if that is not true and he didn't want them,he should have been a lot stronger.He should have stood his ground and told the chairman that these players would not take Spurs forward.
Ramos is very well paid and in a very strong position at Spurs,they wanted him and I expect that he will have the final say on all transfers.
Lets hope he knows where we can get a lot of defenders and a couple of midfielders because we don't have very many good ones at the present time.

 

[hodspurs]

was that the 1st time we have let a corner in since ramos took over?

 

[Darrkespur]

Petrov's cross was pretty good so I'm willing to let this one go. We have shown improvement - One good corner delivery does not mean Ramos hasn't had an effect.