Are we playing to our strengths?

[WiganSpur]

AVB came to Spurs with his tactical philosophy of great dimension, wanting to bring fluid, attacking possession football to the team. But looking at our players, should we be playing in this way? A playing style like this requires players who are very good with the ball, doesn't it?

Look at Michael Dawson- quite often this season, (particularly recently) i've seen him marauding forward like he's the next Aaron Lennon down the right, getting caught out of position countless times. Adding to that we all know about his hoofing up the field and lack of pace. This is not a dig at Daws, more a dig at how he's being told how to play. He isn't Xabi Alonso, so why isn't AVB drumming it into him or training him to play it simple and keep his position, doing what he does best as a decent defender rather than going roaming and losing the ball?

Scott Parker- he's been getting lots of criticism this season by us lot, myself included. But I don't believe it's all his fault, more how he's being told how to play again. He's being given too much freedom in midfield to do what he can't do, he's not an intricate, creative midfielder so why is he joining in with our attacks? All he needs to be told to do is sit in front of the back 4, use his defensive qualities and give it to Hudd/Holtby/Carroll or one of the fullbacks.

Clint Dempsey is yet another that isn't being deployed correctly. He does not have the craft or technical ability to play behind the striker or in front of defences. There has been so many times he's looked like a horrible footballer because he isn't being used correctly. The main thing Dempsey offers is the ability to poach goals, both on the ground and in the air. If he's on the field, all he should be doing is doing a job defensively and constantly getting on the end of things from the left like he did last week against City. He should not be involved in build up play.

I am not suggesting that I don't like the style AVB is trying to implement, just that we should only be playing this way once we have the classy players to do it. (Your Isco's, Eriksen's, Moutinho's, Clasie's, Jovetic's etc.) Parker and Dembele are good players but they aren't the right fit for passing football, they are more suited to more solid, direct and counter attacking tactics. So until we sign the right players maybe we should keep more solid, and perhaps look to go more direct to our wingers on the counter since we don't possess enough creativity as yesterday clearly showed. Until we sign some craft in midfield and skill upfront it might be best to focus on getting our defence right, stop conceding goals like we have been and look to nick games by the odd goal. It doesn't sound too pretty but Parker running about like a headless chicken giving the ball away isn't pretty either.

I am by no means a tactical expert, i'm just putting the suggestion out there maybe we could be making better use of the players we have.

Sorry for the long post

 

[talkshowhost86]

We've looked much better whilst trying to play passing football than we did yesterday when at time we looked like a Sam Allardyce team. Of course with Defoe upfront that was a waste of time and I'm amazed Hudd, Dawson and co didn't realise that.

In particular I thought Hudd failed to play to our normal system yesterday. He didn't ever look for the simple pass, constantly played high balls which slowed any momentum and didn't press at all giving them acres in midfield.

We haven't got the players to fully fit what AVB wants to do, but we've looked better when we've at least been trying.

 

[Chris12]

We've looked much better whilst trying to play passing football than we did yesterday when at time we looked like a Sam Allardyce team. Of course with Defoe upfront that was a waste of time and I'm amazed Hudd, Dawson and co didn't realise that.

In particular I thought Hudd failed to play to our normal system yesterday. He didn't ever look for the simple pass, constantly played high balls which slowed any momentum and didn't press at all giving them acres in midfield.

We haven't got the players to fully fit what AVB wants to do, but we've looked better when we've at least been trying.

I think we do have the players to play the passing game that AVB wants. Got Siggy, Holtby and Carroll, all great passers within the team and Hudd could be but he prefers the long-ball up which Redknapp prefered, and which everyone was hailing against Basel and Manchester City. But to be fair all know Dembele and Parker can't pass but we do need physical presence in the side or we will just be pushed to the side, hence why they keep starting. Lennon isn't the best of passers and neither is the magnificent Bale but they are on the wings and shouldnt need to pass as much i reckon. Thats why Siggy/Holtby should be starting in the middle of the 4-2-3-1 and then the other alongside Dembele in midfield. We definitely have the players capable its just the execution thats letting us down

 

[Ionman34]

It's a Baldric style cunning plan. Put in players who need to be upgraded then tell the boss, 'if I can make 4th/5th with these, think just how far we'd go with better quality.'


Or not

 

[talkshowhost86]

I think we do have the players to play the passing game that AVB wants. Got Siggy, Holtby and Carroll, all great passers within the team and Hudd could be but he prefers the long-ball up which Redknapp prefered, and which everyone was hailing against Basel and Manchester City. But to be fair all know Dembele and Parker can't pass but we do need physical presence in the side or we will just be pushed to the side, hence why they keep starting. Lennon isn't the best of passers and neither is the magnificent Bale but they are on the wings and shouldnt need to pass as much i reckon. Thats why Siggy/Holtby should be starting in the middle of the 4-2-3-1 and then the other alongside Dembele in midfield. We definitely have the players capable its just the execution thats letting us down

In that team I'd be worried about us defensively but having said that I don't think Parker is helping us much there at the moment.

Also Defoe should never start upfront on his own again.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

I'm not sure we'll ever really know what our tactical philosophy actually is until Daniel Levy comes out of the closet and actually tells us his reasoning about the players he signs and makes clear how he wants to see us playing. It's got fuck all to do with AVB/Harold/BFMJ etc etc, think of them more as conductors of an orchestra. Levy writes the music.

Ooooh. You bastard A&C, on a Sunday morning too!

I feel dirty.

 

[tiger666]

I'm not sure we'll ever really know what our tactical philosophy actually is until Daniel Levy comes out of the closet and actually tells us his reasoning about the players he signs and makes clear how he wants to see us playing. It's got fuck all to do with AVB/Harold/BFMJ etc etc, think of them more as conductors of an orchestra. Levy writes the music.

Ooooh. You bastard A&C, on a Sunday morning too!

I feel dirty.

You made a post that didn't mention poo, arse or cocks. You feeling ok?

 

[mpickard2087]

If I came into the Tottenham job, and my intention was to play possession football, then I would be looking to shift about half of the squad instantly.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

You made a post that didn't mention poo, arse or cocks. You feeling ok?

Well, it IS Sunday morning after all. Somehow it didn't feel right sitting here harping on about filth as the village church bells are ringing and people are scurrying hence to worship. Not with me being the local Vicar and all............

 

[Mr Pink]

Huddlestone was fine yesterday, ok he faded second half but he hasn't played a lot recently so that wasn't entirely surprising. The problem was the lack of movement ahead of him. Quite frankly that's a massive concern to me.

The reason we saw more long balls was because of the lack of movement.

 

[EnfieldYiddo]

Trust me AVB isn't telling Dawson to play them long balls nor is he telling Parker to run into blind alleys and do pirouettes. I can't remember where but someone made a very apt post for this thread Somewhere else a while back.

We all know on the whole footballers aren't the brightest bunch...

Sure AVB coaches/tells them to play a certain way but in the moment I believe players get lost in the game and revert back to their default style of play they've developed.

In work if you're told to do a specific job you do it...why doesn't same apply for say Siggy hugging the wing or Naughton not hugging the line.

I guess it's a mixture of reverting to old style, lack of concentration/ability to perform the action and wanting to involve themselves in the game (a la in the playground you running like a magnet towards the ball)

 

[shelfboy68]

AVB came to Spurs with his tactical philosophy of great dimension, wanting to bring fluid, attacking possession football to the team. But looking at our players, should we be playing in this way? A playing style like this requires players who are very good with the ball, doesn't it?

Look at Michael Dawson- quite often this season, (particularly recently) i've seen him marauding forward like he's the next Aaron Lennon down the right, getting caught out of position countless times. Adding to that we all know about his hoofing up the field and lack of pace. This is not a dig at Daws, more a dig at how he's being told how to play. He isn't Xabi Alonso, so why isn't AVB drumming it into him or training him to play it simple and keep his position, doing what he does best as a decent defender rather than going roaming and losing the ball?

Scott Parker- he's been getting lots of criticism this season by us lot, myself included. But I don't believe it's all his fault, more how he's being told how to play again. He's being given too much freedom in midfield to do what he can't do, he's not an intricate, creative midfielder so why is he joining in with our attacks? All he needs to be told to do is sit in front of the back 4, use his defensive qualities and give it to Hudd/Holtby/Carroll or one of the fullbacks.

Clint Dempsey is yet another that isn't being deployed correctly. He does not have the craft or technical ability to play behind the striker or in front of defences. There has been so many times he's looked like a horrible footballer because he isn't being used correctly. The main thing Dempsey offers is the ability to poach goals, both on the ground and in the air. If he's on the field, all he should be doing is doing a job defensively and constantly getting on the end of things from the left like he did last week against City. He should not be involved in build up play.

I am not suggesting that I don't like the style AVB is trying to implement, just that we should only be playing this way once we have the classy players to do it. (Your Isco's, Eriksen's, Moutinho's, Clasie's, Jovetic's etc.) Parker and Dembele are good players but they aren't the right fit for passing football, they are more suited to more solid, direct and counter attacking tactics. So until we sign the right players maybe we should keep more solid, and perhaps look to go more direct to our wingers on the counter since we don't possess enough creativity as yesterday clearly showed. Until we sign some craft in midfield and skill upfront it might be best to focus on getting our defence right, stop conceding goals like we have been and look to nick games by the odd goal. It doesn't sound too pretty but Parker running about like a headless chicken giving the ball away isn't pretty either.

I am by no means a tactical expert, i'm just putting the suggestion out there maybe we could be making better use of the players we have.

Sorry for the long post

You make very good points which is hard to disagree with but I for one would just prefer avb to actually work on a disciplined defence as that I think is costing us more.
In recent weeks our defending is shit four 2-2 draws three goals conceded against Liverpool and four against Milan just not good enough and its this sieve of a defence which may cost us top four imo.
It surely can't be hard to sort this out with good structured coaching its a cliché I know but it was said once that goals win games and defences win titles and although we wont win a title at this moment in time the analogy is true for any serious successful teams to base a winning ethic on.

 

[NEVILLEB]

We play best with a 4-4-2

Bale and Lennon on the wings. Ade and Defoe upfront.

 

[Syn_13]

We play best with a 4-4-2

Bale and Lennon on the wings. Ade and Defoe upfront.

I'm not keen on Ade and Defoe up front together. I think if Ade was doing what he did last year then sure, it could be a good formation. But even last year he had a false striker in VDV playing off him. If anything, if we went 4-4-2 I'd rather a left winger come in and Bale play as the false striker as he's such a good attacking player. Defoe and Ade for me just doesn't work in the way that they are now.

Edit: Plus, although Bale is a fantastic winger he's decimated teams this season by playing a free role in the middle. He's actually done his best work as an attacker coming in on his left foot from the right hand side.

 

[Bill_Oddie]

Never apologise for a long post! Shows you've given it some thought.

In answer to your comment, I think it's very important to note that the three players you (rightly, tbf) single out are not in our first choice XI. If all players were fit, Kaboul's ahead of Daws, Sandro's in for Parker, and plenty of others would move Deuce down the order.

It's also worth pointing out the quite drastic change for many of our squad. Look how hard Chelsea's (far more highly paid and "better") players struggled to make the system work. We've got to grips with it okay, but made a few clusterfucks - some tactical, some just plain mistakes - along the way.

AVB has shown some tactical flexibility and moved to 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 at times, albeit perhaps he could have done more. Yesterday I'd have been all over the 3-1-4-2 after half an hour. But then I am a bit of a tosser. Point is, AVB has tried some degree of flexibility to his approach but I think if he hasn't quite felt confident enough to experiment more, sticking to what he feels works, then it's harsh to criticise him for that. These are big stakes and he has to also show faith in the players around him.

On that note, Parker is a tough one. He's been PotS at 3 different PL clubs. He was England captain less than a year ago. He really should be capable of "forward penetration" whether with the ball or through passing. I wonder how many of us in the same situation would *really* pick Tommy Carroll ahead of him, much though we say we would on the internet. We all know Parker is a key figure in a dressing room, so maybe AVB is also aware of a potential fall-out? Just a thought.

In answer to your question, I think we are by and large playing to our strengths, but we are also prone to occasional fuckwittery like Walker's pass at Liverpool or yesterday's bizarre decision to face a team that was very compact and sat deep with no left-footed players on the left, thus making the pitch 3/4s as wide as it could have been. That's hurting us more than tactics, which in the main have been vastly better this season than last.

 

[NEVILLEB]

I'm not keen on Ade and Defoe up front together. I think if Ade was doing what he did last year then sure, it could be a good formation. But even last year he had a false striker in VDV playing off him. If anything, if we went 4-4-2 I'd rather a left winger come in and Bale play as the false striker as he's such a good attacking player. Defoe and Ade for me just doesn't work in the way that they are now.

Edit: Plus, although Bale is a fantastic winger he's decimated teams this season by playing a free role in the middle. He's actually done his best work as an attacker coming in on his left foot from the right hand side.

They've hardly played together so it's hard to say it doesn't work.

Regarding Bale, I agree he's better in a floating role but as a team we are far better balanced and more dangerous with him and Lennon on the wings

 

[punkisback]

AVB came to Spurs with his tactical philosophy of great dimension, wanting to bring fluid, attacking possession football to the team. But looking at our players, should we be playing in this way? A playing style like this requires players who are very good with the ball, doesn't it?

Look at Michael Dawson- quite often this season, (particularly recently) i've seen him marauding forward like he's the next Aaron Lennon down the right, getting caught out of position countless times. Adding to that we all know about his hoofing up the field and lack of pace. This is not a dig at Daws, more a dig at how he's being told how to play. He isn't Xabi Alonso, so why isn't AVB drumming it into him or training him to play it simple and keep his position, doing what he does best as a decent defender rather than going roaming and losing the ball?

Scott Parker- he's been getting lots of criticism this season by us lot, myself included. But I don't believe it's all his fault, more how he's being told how to play again. He's being given too much freedom in midfield to do what he can't do, he's not an intricate, creative midfielder so why is he joining in with our attacks? All he needs to be told to do is sit in front of the back 4, use his defensive qualities and give it to Hudd/Holtby/Carroll or one of the fullbacks.

Clint Dempsey is yet another that isn't being deployed correctly. He does not have the craft or technical ability to play behind the striker or in front of defences. There has been so many times he's looked like a horrible footballer because he isn't being used correctly. The main thing Dempsey offers is the ability to poach goals, both on the ground and in the air. If he's on the field, all he should be doing is doing a job defensively and constantly getting on the end of things from the left like he did last week against City. He should not be involved in build up play.

I am not suggesting that I don't like the style AVB is trying to implement, just that we should only be playing this way once we have the classy players to do it. (Your Isco's, Eriksen's, Moutinho's, Clasie's, Jovetic's etc.) Parker and Dembele are good players but they aren't the right fit for passing football, they are more suited to more solid, direct and counter attacking tactics. So until we sign the right players maybe we should keep more solid, and perhaps look to go more direct to our wingers on the counter since we don't possess enough creativity as yesterday clearly showed. Until we sign some craft in midfield and skill upfront it might be best to focus on getting our defence right, stop conceding goals like we have been and look to nick games by the odd goal. It doesn't sound too pretty but Parker running about like a headless chicken giving the ball away isn't pretty either.

I am by no means a tactical expert, i'm just putting the suggestion out there maybe we could be making better use of the players we have.

Sorry for the long post

Completely agree, the likes of Parker, Dempsey and to an extent Sig, don't have the required quality to play in a top 4 challenging team.

 

[ItsBoris]

It's a transition season. We don't have even close to the players we need partly because Levy didn't trust AVB last summer and didn't bring in his targets. Realistically we need about 5 new first choice players. We could win the title I feel like if we got them.