Are you happy with Ramos ? ( Next 2 games debate )

[Defsta]

No Goat no Vote!

Seconded

 

[stevenqoz]

Forgive me but I could have sworn that for most of the season we had been an out of sorts, low on committment, leaderless, frozen in headlights mob who even fat Sam Aladyce could not have made worse.....perhaps I am exaggerating somewhat. To put it bluntly Ramos has been a revelation and I still can't believe that Levy pursuaded him to come to such an average team when he did

 

[striebs]

Forgive me but I could have sworn that for most of the season we had been an out of sorts, low on committment, leaderless, frozen in headlights mob who even fat Sam Aladyce could not have made worse.....perhaps I am exaggerating somewhat. To put it bluntly Ramos has been a revelation and I still can't believe that Levy pursuaded him to come to such an average team when he did

That is what people should be worried about , if something looks too good to be true , it usually is .

Either it was the money or Levy convinced Ramos that he was serious about making Tottenham a contender again .

If whatever Levy said to Ramos turns out to be hollow promises then I can see him walking .

 

[Real_madyidd]

who is voting no?

I despair

I voted "no". I though I was being funny, then I discovered 5 other people also did it! Doh!

Although I must say he hasn't actually done anything better than Jol, yet (results wise). Looks promising, but I am just being pessimistic this time.

 

[tRiKS]

yiu have to remember ramos took over a totally unfit unbalanced undisiplined squad so u cant knock him

or he took over a team that finished 5th twice and who as a collective were better over 2 legs than his very own Sevilla side?!? too early

 

[tRiKS]

The only two results I'm hesitant to say Jol would have got the same are the City home and Pompy away other than that I don't think they'd be any different.

There are differences in approach between the two but recognising difference is not the same as making a judgement on ability.

Personally i see the result/performance away to arsenal as more defining than the Chelsea game.

 

[ChrisDefoe18]

Ramos job is to set a team up to create chances to win football matches so i dont see it as his fault that Keane misses an open goal...Berba stands on the ball from a yard out...JJ misses two simple one on one chances and Robbo throws one in...AGAIN!!! Sometimes the manager is blameless and i gotta say i think Ramos has been excellent so far only let down by crazy decisions from players and refs.

 

[Davo99]

I think he's won what he's expected to have won, bar the Birmingham. It's good to see the away form has picked up a bit, too. So on the whole, yes, I'm happy.

 

[herefordyid]

I love Martin Jol! Martin Jol loves me!


Commoli out! he has a pointless job at the lane, is he just someones friend who made up a job for him?

 

[justfookinhitit]

Put it this way - when he joined the club we were seriously close to relegation, and quite frankly the players did not look like they had the slightest clue what needed to be done to drag us up the table. Now we are in 12th and are quite rightly looking up the table rather than back over our shoulders. That sums it up for me.

I felt very sorry for Jol because of the way his credibility was destroyed by the board, but at the end of the day Ramos came into a club that was seriously struggling and we have picked ourselves up. Are we the finished article - no, absolutely not. But give him the opportunity to build his squad via this transfer window and the summer and I think we could be seriously strong. So if someone can schedule a vote for say the end of November 2008 then we will know definitively by then.

 

[stevenqoz]

SS57, Joey you are both giving Jol a bit more credit for formational flexibility than he deserves. It was really exceptional for him to go three at the back and the default response was generally to do nothing in that way. Ramos seems more willing to use the squad and to challenge the players within it to improve by playing various positions at varying times in a game. Tainio has played across the midfield and RB. Jenas the same. O'Hara LB and LM and central. All four of our forwards have played in a three,two and one man attack at times. Prince has played RM nad CM. Chimbonda RB and CB. Lennon LM and LWB. Zokora RB, CB and CM. Does this sound like what they were doing before last xmas?
I currently coach four sides so deal with such changes week to week. Often change is made before substitutions.....within the eleven on the field. While Jol was a coach I loved he was limited. It was a great disapointment to me that he actaully left us without the knowledge that the went out taking the risks that may have saved him(or killed him) He went with a wimper and would be asking himself today should I have taken more risks and been more flexible?

 

[joey55]

SS57, Joey you are both giving Jol a bit more credit for formational flexibility than he deserves. It was really exceptional for him to go three at the back and the default response was generally to do nothing in that way. Ramos seems more willing to use the squad and to challenge the players within it to improve by playing various positions at varying times in a game. Tainio has played across the midfield and RB. Jenas the same. O'Hara LB and LM and central. All four of our forwards have played in a three,two and one man attack at times. Prince has played RM nad CM. Chimbonda RB and CB. Lennon LM and LWB. Zokora RB, CB and CM. Does this sound like what they were doing before last xmas?
I currently coach four sides so deal with such changes week to week. Often change is made before substitutions.....within the eleven on the field. While Jol was a coach I loved he was limited. It was a great disapointment to me that he actaully left us without the knowledge that the went out taking the risks that may have saved him(or killed him) He went with a wimper and would be asking himself today should I have taken more risks and been more flexible?

I find this an odd post as you've listed a lot of things Jol definitely did. Firstly, alot of the postional changes have been enforced on Ramos by injury. I'm sure had other options been fit Ramos would have played them in their rightful positions instead. Secondly Jol used TT at RB (against Seville ironically before moving him into midfield and going 343!). He also used him all across midfield. He used JJ at RB and Chimbonda at CB. As for dropping Zokora into CB, what happened this time last year when we play Arsenal in the League Cup? And Jol would often switch Lennon over to the left. I just don't undersatnd how people can simply forget these things, as if they didn't happen.

It's the same with the 343 formation. We've done it 3 times (Utd, Eve and Villa) in the Prem this season under Jol, which is half the time we were chasing games. Other times we went 433 (ie Sunderland) or 4312 (Blackburn at the end of last season). But when you say he wasn't flexible enough, what are you comparing him to? It's like people compare our coach's and players to perfection rather than their peers. Which prem managers changed formation or shape more than Jol? Who was more flexible? As a coach you say he was limited, but compared to who? In fact in terms of team set up, shape and and general in match changes is there a coach more similar to Ramos than Jol in the entire Prem? Under Jol even this season with all the shit going on we still had made the 5th highest amount of passes, the top amount of tackles (pretty impressive for a supposedly unfit side), scored the second highest amount of goals and only given away the 5th lowest amount of chances. Our problems weren't tactical or coaching, it was because despite giving away so few chances we still conceded. Now look at how we actually let those goals in and see if they are coaching errors or player errors, that come from inexperience, lack of quality and also as part of the immense pressure they were under from the start of the season.

 

[SpurSince57]

Jol actually went to three at the back on several occasions and was roundly slated for it. Ramos has shown he is more willing to take risks, but my point was that whilst he has been applauded for doing so Jol was slagged off. There was much derision when Jol had both Bent and Defoe on the bench; when Ramos does the same, there's not a whisper of dissent. Yet.

Jenas certainly played at RB under Jol on a couple of occasions—taking over from the useless Kelly against WBA at the Lane springs to mind; unless memory serves me incorrectly, Ghaly also had a turn or two at RB, and Chimbonda at LB. Jol was slated for trying Lennon at LM.

For me, Jol's weakness was that, whilst Plan A was often very effective, Plan B wasn't. But in basic approach, there are certainly similarities. And Ramos is, obviously, bedevilled by the same failings that sank Jol—our defence has gone utterly to pot. The most frustrating thing about this season is that we've actually played far better than in several of the corresponding fixtures over the last couple of seasons—compare our performance at Craven Cottage with last season's borefest, for one—and then shot ourselves in the foot.

 

[claw_diddy]

I think the bottom line is, if we lose against the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd over the next month, then we are no better off than when we had Jol in terms of formation, tactics, personnel. However, I do think Ramos will re-invent the team and make it his own over the next 18 months and if we start achieving regular results against the so called 'top 4' then perhaps the change in manager was worth it.

Too early to call, would be nice to win a domestic cup but we've got to beat at least one 'top 4' team to do this - big ask at the moment.