AVB agrees to manage Zenit

[Shea]

Turn things around? He had us exactly where we should be in the table.

How did AVB take our squad backwards? He certainly can't be blamed for the Bale exit. Poch then inherited the exact same squad AVB left.

I really don't get why people aren't willing to accept that actually AVB got the very best out of this squad, a point which is painfully obvious right now in our current plight.

A squad which we have since learned contained summer signings which AVB didn't particularly want.

Poch inherited that very squad and his summer signings (and transfers out too) have been nothing short of appalling - although whether that's his fault of Baldini's we do not know yet. Evidence would suggest Fazio was a Poch signing and he is terrible.

Spoiler: bit of a long post

We were already there before he had the job, in fact we'd finished 4th twice. We were pretty well established in the top five and he managed to maintain that, largely due to Bale papering over the cracks of his managerial style and tactics making us impotent in attack but slowly but surely the ability of our team/squad minus Bale was being eroded

He took us backwards in as far as his style of play made us almost completely reliant on Gareth Bale's ability to produce moments of magic from long range

Before AVB we were a side that created many opportunities and it was said for years that all we really needed to complete our team and be able to compete was to add a clinical striker who knew how to make the right runs to get on to those chances and fill his boots with goal after goal.

We later bought such a striker but thanks to AVB we and rearranged the whole structure of our team and its tactical style.

No longer we were a creative exciting unit prime for a fox in the box striker to make his clever runs and latch on to the abundance of chances we would present him, now we were a team set up to hold position in the middle of the park playing side ways and backwards passes strangling the game and oppositions potential to hurt us before eventually building up to a position where the likes of Bale would be in shooting range

This meant the fox in the box type striker was completely unsuited to our new style of play and outrageously isolated while long shots from the likes of Townsend and Sig replaced those of Bale (less effectively obviously)

In defence we had adopted a high line with diasterous consequences, we constantly let in late goals via simple passes over our high line for attackers to run into and dropped several key points that would later cost us heavily in the race for Europe. AVB repeating same errors he had made at Chelsea by being so rigid in his ideals of how the game should be played and failing to tailor them to the componets at his disposal (big brad in goal and the slow CB that neither marshalled this defensive line nor had any tangible cover or protection from the midfield ahead of it)

AVB was then credited with rectifying this - although in reality the reason it improved is Lloris replaced BRad and was far more capable of sweeping up and covering for the dysfunction of the back line (just as Bale covered for the impotence up front)

Now there are those who credit AVB with Bale's rise, personally I think that is rubbish and he was simply that good he would have developed regarldess - so the level of credit one gives to him re. Bale is subjective and a matter of opinion (yes I've seen the Bale quotes regarding this)

Equally I don't know how much credit to give AVB regarding Lloris, if he identfied him or suggested him as the keeper needed to make the high line work then fair play if not others deserve the credit (either way I place a certain amount of blame on AVB playing Brad for too long while Lloris was ready to start and/or playing the high line with Brad before introducing Lloris as it clearly cost us valuable points)

So yes AVB maintained our position, but to me we were a disporportionatly strong squad compared to our rivals below the top five and we were already consistently performing at that level for a number of years (just as he is producing what he should produce with a Zenit side disproportionately stronger than its rivals in Russia or how Lennon had such relative success with Celtic over a sustained period of time)

But he laid in place this style of play which leaves our strikers isolated and blunts our attack while holding meaningless possession in the centre areas and being potentially vunerable at the back due to the line of the defence and lack of cohesive leadership making indivdual errors so costly

To this day we're trying to recover from how dependant he made us on Bale in my opinion, Sherwood showed how the attack could be changed to be more creative and free scoring but largely at the expense of defensive stabilty and now under Poch he is trying to clear up the mess he inherited that stemmed from AVB's time in charge

Lots of the damage AVB caused went under the radar because for the most part results remained relatievly constant, but they were slowly but surely starting to present themselves and I firmly believe had AVB stayed in charge they would have only got worse and worse and he would have reached an untenable stage where even his supporters (who hold on to the benefit of doubt created by him departing before the full extent of his damage came to present itself on the pitch as it is still doing now in my eyes) would have agreed he must go

That said I aim even more blame at Levy, one because I think AVB was a foolish appointment in the first place and two because he I am certain made numerous mistakes in the transfer market which compounded the issue and made AVB's job harder.

You don't have to agree with me, clearly you don't, that's my opinion and I will happily leave you to yours because frankly this debate was done to death when AVB left in the first place and I highly doubt that either you or I will present any new information to one another which wasn't really discussed in full at the time and I am certain neither will change the others mind because the crux of the matter comes down to a difference of opinion as to what would have happened had he stayed which neither of us can ever truly know or prove

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Turn things around? He had us exactly where we should be in the table.

How did AVB take our squad backwards? He certainly can't be blamed for the Bale exit. Poch then inherited the exact same squad AVB left.
.

I find it ludicrous that people still don't grasp how well AVB was doing considering who he lost from the team two years running. It wasn't just major world class players he lost, but other areas needed upgrading too. We still had wankers like Lennon, Dawson, Adebayor in a year long funk, no decent LB or RB. Not to mention all the shit behind the scenes with ****s like Sherwood and Freund chipping their two bobs worth in.

I think it was a fucking miracle he did so well.

 

[Main Man]

Well that's a nice long post @Shea. This is certainly the most creative post I have ever read on this forum. Your bending of the truth is actually outstanding.

You say Bale papered over the cracks first season, a common argument used by many anti-AVB haters - bet let's actually address this once and for all. (I did start a similarly long post but didn't feel it was necessary, just answer the one question at the bottom)

AVB did indeed inherit a talented squad, a squad that should have been in the Champions League bar a Redknapp influenced bottle job of epic proportion.

But of that squad, Luka Modric and VDV left leaving huge cracks, unfillable cracks one might argue... although not you seemingly? Add to that fact that Ledley was pretty much retired we had three massive 'cracks to paper over' as you put it - did Gareth Bale really paper over all those cracks?

 

[SteveH]

AVB + Russian football. A match made in heaven. Lala land where you can spend shed load of money on overpriced players and do no harm. Football oblivion!

 

[Bus-Conductor]

AVB + Russian football. A match made in heaven. Lala land where you can spend shed load of money on overpriced players and do no harm. Football oblivion!

Unlike the EPL where you can pay 20m+ for Julian Lescott and 60m for Angel Di Maria ?

 

[SteveH]

Unlike the EPL where you can pay 20m+ for Julian Lescott and 60m for Angel Di Maria ?

Yeah but Russian football?

Its only one step up from a computer game.

 

[Stavrogin]

Well that's a nice long post @Shea. This is certainly the most creative post I have ever read on this forum. Your bending of the truth is actually outstanding.

You say Bale papered over the cracks first season, a common argument used by many anti-AVB haters - bet let's actually address this once and for all. (I did start a similarly long post but didn't feel it was necessary, just answer the one question at the bottom)

AVB did indeed inherit a talented squad, a squad that should have been in the Champions League bar a Redknapp influenced bottle job of epic proportion.

But of that squad, Luka Modric and VDV left leaving huge cracks, unfillable cracks one might argue... although not you seemingly? Add to that fact that Ledley was pretty much retired we had three massive 'cracks to paper over' as you put it - did Gareth Bale really paper over all those cracks?

wha?

If he papered over the all cracks then a) he'd be some player and b) the jury wouldn't have still been out during Villas Boas' second season.

When people say he papered over the cracks the surely mean that his contribution - especially in the sense of scoring wonder goals in the last minute when we didn't otherwise look like scoring - was so great that it compensated for everything else that was wrong.

The proof being our performances the following season when we had to rely on penalties and such to make breakthroughs.

 

[Kendall]

Unlike the EPL where you can pay 20m+ for Julian Lescott and 60m for Angel Di Maria ?

At least in the PL there are at least 6 teams who pay shitloads for overpriced players

 

[Shea]

Well that's a nice long post @Shea. This is certainly the most creative post I have ever read on this forum. Your bending of the truth is actually outstanding.

You say Bale papered over the cracks first season, a common argument used by many anti-AVB haters - bet let's actually address this once and for all. (I did start a similarly long post but didn't feel it was necessary, just answer the one question at the bottom)

AVB did indeed inherit a talented squad, a squad that should have been in the Champions League bar a Redknapp influenced bottle job of epic proportion.

But of that squad, Luka Modric and VDV left leaving huge cracks, unfillable cracks one might argue... although not you seemingly? Add to that fact that Ledley was pretty much retired we had three massive 'cracks to paper over' as you put it - did Gareth Bale really paper over all those cracks?

Do you know it's possible to debate a point with someone who disagrees with your opinion without resorting to childishly trying to dismiss their own views by calling what they say tripe and or creative/bending the truth etc

Firstly - I am not an AVB hater, that's an assumption you make because I disagree with you in as far as my belief that had he stayed things would have been any better now

I didn't think AVB should have been hired in the first place and I certainly didn't disagree with his sacking but this doesn't not mean I am a hater of his. I liked him and I still like him and wish him success, I've even said numerous times on this very forum (probably indeed in this very thread) that I believe he has the potential to become a top class manager in the future and that he was simply the wrong man at the wrong club at the wrong time both for us and Chelsea before us (in my personal opinion)

Now - I agree, and said so myself in my previous (admittedly lengthy) post that Levy's influence with transfers in and out the club were major contributing factors to the decline of the club and that they made AVB's job more difficult.

That said - I still fundamentally believe that we were a squad and a team (especially with Bale in it) that were disproprotionatly stronger than our competition all but for the top 4 ahead of us and as a result added with the momentum and mindset/attitude/belief that comes from having spent several years in a sustained postion of being the best of the rest challenging for CL football year in year out that helped carry us through and get the points tally and results to cover the slow and sure decline of our football and effectiveness

You only need to look at any one of my recent posts on this forum to see how much blame I place on Levy's transfer dealings for unbalancing us and making us a less cohesive unit during the last few windows, in fact I've been critical of his transfer activity way back when since the winter windows of the Redknapp era. So I certainly don't soley blame AVB for our current position (as you some how suggested I did two posts ago)

AVB however played a role, a major role in my opinion.

Even excusing him from any role in the transfer dealings (which personally I highly doubt he had zero in put in) the things that were going wrong during his time were evident to the eye even though they were not presenting themselves dramatically in terms of our results.

We were still getting points, we were still maintaining our position (even after Bale left to an extent) but the football was slowly but surely becoming less productive, less effective and more disjointed.

Oobviously Levy shoulders the lion share of this blame, for his transfers, for his hiring and firing of managers etc etc

But AVB was the man who implemented the style of play that gradually destroyed our productivity and creativity. The man who made us slow in possession without forward intent and many of us fans held the belief that things were not right and only going to get worse long before they actually started to get worse in terms of points and results.

AVB played a major role in the performances getting worse and the teams position becoming unsustainable - over reliance on scoring from range (especially once Bale had gone and we had less people of doing so), in ability to create space, in ability to create chances and a heavy reliance on a sweeper keeper to mop up a high defensive line that in itself was neither effective nor protected by the midfield

To this day we suffer from the lack of width, to this day we suffer from this lack of creativity and to this day we suffer from this defensive fragility that places more reliance on Lloris than even we relied on Bale previously

In my opinion AVB was taking us backwards in terms of our playing style even though it wasn't manifesting itself in the shape of results so much but the long term influence of his tactical changes is largely what we see now on the pitch.

Arguments can be made as to extent to which his coaching were to blame or his lack of backing with the right players from Levy are to blame, most likely a combination of the two and he surely would have had some influence in who we signed or should have had B and C choices that suited him once his A choices were not attained (like the Willian and JM sagas)

As I say you're entitled to your opinion and if you firmly believe we'd be in a better situation now had AVB not been sacked that is your right to believe but personally I disagree and I think this was the road AVB was leading us down and the reason for his dismissal and largely Poch has inherited the mess that between them Levy and AVB made and there is a great deal of work required to fix it

 

[THOWIG]

[/QUOTE] As I say you're entitled to your opinion and if you firmly believe we'd be in a better situation now had AVB not been sacked that is your right to believe but personally I disagree and I think this was the road AVB was leading us down and the reason for his dismissal and largely Poch has inherited the mess that between them Levy and AVB made and there is a great deal of work required to fix it[/QUOTE]

you don't honestly believe that do you?

 

[Main Man]

Do you know it's possible to debate a point with someone who disagrees with your opinion without resorting to childishly trying to dismiss their own views by calling what they say tripe and or creative/bending the truth etc

Firstly - I am not an AVB hater, that's an assumption you make because I disagree with you in as far as my belief that had he stayed things would have been any better now

I didn't think AVB should have been hired in the first place and I certainly didn't disagree with his sacking but this doesn't not mean I am a hater of his. I liked him and I still like him and wish him success, I've even said numerous times on this very forum (probably indeed in this very thread) that I believe he has the potential to become a top class manager in the future and that he was simply the wrong man at the wrong club at the wrong time both for us and Chelsea before us (in my personal opinion)

Now - I agree, and said so myself in my previous (admittedly lengthy) post that Levy's influence with transfers in and out the club were major contributing factors to the decline of the club and that they made AVB's job more difficult.

That said - I still fundamentally believe that we were a squad and a team (especially with Bale in it) that were disproprotionatly stronger than our competition all but for the top 4 ahead of us and as a result added with the momentum and mindset/attitude/belief that comes from having spent several years in a sustained postion of being the best of the rest challenging for CL football year in year out that helped carry us through and get the points tally and results to cover the slow and sure decline of our football and effectiveness

You only need to look at any one of my recent posts on this forum to see how much blame I place on Levy's transfer dealings for unbalancing us and making us a less cohesive unit during the last few windows, in fact I've been critical of his transfer activity way back when since the winter windows of the Redknapp era. So I certainly don't soley blame AVB for our current position (as you some how suggested I did two posts ago)

AVB however played a role, a major role in my opinion.

Even excusing him from any role in the transfer dealings (which personally I highly doubt he had zero in put in) the things that were going wrong during his time were evident to the eye even though they were not presenting themselves dramatically in terms of our results.

We were still getting points, we were still maintaining our position (even after Bale left to an extent) but the football was slowly but surely becoming less productive, less effective and more disjointed.

Oobviously Levy shoulders the lion share of this blame, for his transfers, for his hiring and firing of managers etc etc

But AVB was the man who implemented the style of play that gradually destroyed our productivity and creativity. The man who made us slow in possession without forward intent and many of us fans held the belief that things were not right and only going to get worse long before they actually started to get worse in terms of points and results.

AVB played a major role in the performances getting worse and the teams position becoming unsustainable - over reliance on scoring from range (especially once Bale had gone and we had less people of doing so), in ability to create space, in ability to create chances and a heavy reliance on a sweeper keeper to mop up a high defensive line that in itself was neither effective nor protected by the midfield

To this day we suffer from the lack of width, to this day we suffer from this lack of creativity and to this day we suffer from this defensive fragility that places more reliance on Lloris than even we relied on Bale previously

In my opinion AVB was taking us backwards in terms of our playing style even though it wasn't manifesting itself in the shape of results so much but the long term influence of his tactical changes is largely what we see now on the pitch.

Arguments can be made as to extent to which his coaching were to blame or his lack of backing with the right players from Levy are to blame, most likely a combination of the two and he surely would have had some influence in who we signed or should have had B and C choices that suited him once his A choices were not attained (like the Willian and JM sagas)

As I say you're entitled to your opinion and if you firmly believe we'd be in a better situation now had AVB not been sacked that is your right to believe but personally I disagree and I think this was the road AVB was leading us down and the reason for his dismissal and largely Poch has inherited the mess that between them Levy and AVB made and there is a great deal of work required to fix it

You are going to brand me as childish here @Shea , but you haven't answered my question...

And you are an AVB hater because you are refusing to accept the job he actually did for us.

In fact, you are even blaming our current failings on him today.

Your post is full of contradictions but this is the best and most important...

"We were still getting points, we were still maintaining our position (even after Bale left to an extent) but the football was slowly but surely becoming less productive, less effective and more disjointed."

So it was becoming less productive, effective and more disjointed - yet we were still getting points and maintaining our position. That would mean we were just as productive and effective as previous wouldn't it?

Hmmmmm....

If you have this much disrespect for AVB, you must really want Poch out?

 

[Main Man]

When people say he papered over the cracks the surely mean that his contribution - especially in the sense of scoring wonder goals in the last minute when we didn't otherwise look like scoring - was so great that it compensated for everything else that was wrong.

I am fully aware of what people are trying to say, Gareth Bale single handedly kept AVB in a job.

And to a certain extent that is true, but would we have achieved any more if Harry has remained in charge with Modric and VDV departing?

That is debatable, and I will offer my opinion and say no. I would also imagine that Gareth Bale would have stayed stuck out on the wing, and probably the wrong wing at that and the Gareth Bale of today probably wouldn't exist.

 

[Shea]

E

You are going to brand me as childish here @Shea , but you haven't answered my question...

And you are an AVB hater because you are refusing to accept the job he actually did for us.

In fact, you are even blaming our current failings on him today.

Your post is full of contradictions but this is the best and most important...

"We were still getting points, we were still maintaining our position (even after Bale left to an extent) but the football was slowly but surely becoming less productive, less effective and more disjointed."

So it was becoming less productive, effective and more disjointed - yet we were still getting points and maintaining our position. That would mean we were just as productive and effective as previous wouldn't it?

Hmmmmm....

If you have this much disrespect for AVB, you must really want Poch out?

What question have I not answered?

I said the problems under avb that were becoming apparent in terms of the declining style of play, blunting Of attack, loss of creativity, meaningless possession in non threatening areas whilst having a fragile back line was not presenting itself overtly because we were still grinding out wins and points due to our relative superior quality compared to our direct rivals below us and the mentality developed by being a top five established outfit over time (in my eyes we were getting result in spite of not because of avb)

His style of play was not sustainable and we were slowly but surely regressing under him which is why he was sacked

As I said I believe firmly that had he stayed in charge we would have finished much lower last season and been in at least as bad a position as we find ourselves now

As for your poch statement - you obviously haven't really read my posts or you would know I don't have a negative opinion of him and feel he has a lot of work to do to correct the mess he inherited from the fruits of avb and Mr Levy's labour

 

[Stavrogin]

I am fully aware of what people are trying to say, Gareth Bale single handedly kept AVB in a job.

And to a certain extent that is true, but would we have achieved any more if Harry has remained in charge with Modric and VDV departing?

That is debatable, and I will offer my opinion and say no. I would also imagine that Gareth Bale would have stayed stuck out on the wing, and probably the wrong wing at that and the Gareth Bale of today probably wouldn't exist.

I don't know, his job wasn't on the line in the first season but as you say, without Bale being so ridiculously productive we probably would have dropped a few places.

It's a strange argument. In his first season it was debatable how well he was doing - maybe Bale papered over the cracks, maybe he was just exploiting Bale whilst rebuilding? In his second season we did badly and he was sacked/resigned.

The whole thing is there, played out from beginning to end. People are trying to debate something that as if something more mysterious is going on.

Villas Boas obviously deserves credit for maintaining our momentum in his first season. But he did it in a way that did not engender much confidence. I think I was like most people, we thought ok, his first season was pretty awful but we're able to grind out results, we can build on this. But we didn't.

And I would take issue with the idea that he got the best out that squad. What characterized his tenure was just how many players were playing terribly. It just didn't look as if he knew how to tweak his selection or tactics to get the best from his squad. In this sense, although pochettino is not doing very well I have a lot more faith that he can turn it around.

 

[Main Man]

I said the problems under avb that were becoming apparent in terms of the declining style of play, blunting Of attack, loss of creativity, meaningless possession in non threatening areas whilst having a fragile back line was not presenting itself overtly because we were still grinding out wins and points due to our relative superior quality compared to our direct rivals below us and the mentality developed by being a top five established outfit over time (in my eyes we were getting result in spite of not because of avb)

Regarding the bit in bold, why are we still not grinding out results now if this was the case during AVBs tenure?

We still have superior quality to West Brom, Newcastle and Stoke. Are you admitting that Poch has negatively changed the mentality?

 

[Main Man]

What characterized his tenure was just how many players were playing terribly. It just didn't look as if he knew how to tweak his selection or tactics to get the best from his squad. In this sense, although pochettino is not doing very well I have a lot more faith that he can turn it around.

Yet AVB still had us 5/6th in the table, and at no point were we closer to relegation than Europe.

You are right regarding AVBs selection and tactics, he was stubborn and ultimately that's what I believe cost him his job - rightly or wrongly.

However, Poch has been far more stubborn in his tactics so far and careless when it comes to team selection so I am not sure why you have more confidence in Poch? He has not shown a single ounce of changing what we are doing.

I have said this many times, and I fear I will continue to do so. Tactically especially, the similarities between AVB and Poch are so clear it is untrue.

But unfortunately, we are now left with the poorer version of the better.

 

[ShaunL84]

I believed in AVB, He gave the impression that he knew what he was doing.
I don't believe in Pochettino.

 

[ClintEastwould]

I find it ludicrous that people still don't grasp how well AVB was doing considering who he lost from the team two years running. It wasn't just major world class players he lost, but other areas needed upgrading too. We still had wankers like Lennon, Dawson, Adebayor in a year long funk, no decent LB or RB. Not to mention all the shit behind the scenes with ****s like Sherwood and Freund chipping their two bobs worth in.

I think it was a fucking miracle he did so well.

No need for that.

 

[Stavrogin]

Yet AVB still had us 5/6th in the table, and at no point were we closer to relegation than Europe.

You are right regarding AVBs selection and tactics, he was stubborn and ultimately that's what I believe cost him his job - rightly or wrongly.

However, Poch has been far more stubborn in his tactics so far and careless when it comes to team selection so I am not sure why you have more confidence in Poch? He has not shown a single ounce of changing what we are doing.

I have said this many times, and I fear I will continue to do so. Tactically especially, the similarities between AVB and Poch are so clear it is untrue.

But unfortunately, we are now left with the poorer version of the better.

Well, despite things going badly, the majority of the players have shown some promise. I can imagine Lamela, Soldado or Eriksen finding some form - whilst it seemed unlikely under Villas Boas (and I guess ultimately that was borne out.)

I would say there are two problems with what we're doing. The Attacking midfield three are working in such a way that we're frequently playing 4-2-4, which leaves us wildly open when we lose possession. People are underestimating how much of an effect this has. Against Villa we started superbly, Soldado was looking lively etc. but then when they got the ball they were able to carve us open and create great chances. This killed our verve.

This openness is compounded by the lack of solidity in defence. Which is understandable to a degree since we have some injuries and new/young players. However it's also about some wonky team selection.

There are a lot of possible solutions. We could play Stambouli instead of Capoue or Mason. We could play Vertonghen in every league match. We could rejig the attacking midfield and have someone like Lennon help tighten us up.

Under Villas Boas we were playing with redundant extra central midfielders who just served to clog up the pitch and slow down our play (I don't think this plodding build up was by design). Now we have the opposite problem but at least we look like we can score goals. At times we're able to break as effectively as under Redknapp and we can pass the ball around nicely.

I think people forget how rarely we did anything 'good' under Villas Boas.

Anyhow, Pochettino may prove stubborn and the promising signs may just be flukes. But I don't think so. He's made enough changes to suggest he's open to new options and he's taken risks. I hope he's not holding on for the transfer window to correct things though.

edit: I'm not saying he won't prove to be crap just that there are signs he'll be able to improve.

 

[Shea]

Regarding the bit in bold, why are we still not grinding out results now if this was the case during AVBs tenure?

We still have superior quality to West Brom, Newcastle and Stoke. Are you admitting that Poch has negatively changed the mentality?

because the negative effects of the style of play that AVB implemented and the unablancing of the squad/team from Levy and co.s investement are now starting to present themselves overtly where before they were not

The mentality of the players has changed, in part due to the lack of stability (which to an extent may not have been as bad had AVB left, although there was a stark upturn in performance and results initially when Sherwood replaced him) but as I said we were established as a top 5 team we're no longer and the winning mentality has declined somewhat

Also these weaker teams are stronger than they were - they've invested more since the extra tv money and teams like Newcastle, West Brom and Stoke are now not as weak in relation to us as they were during the AVB era. While the top 4 themselves may not be as strong the weaker teams are improved and being best of the rest is now more difficult (the middle and lower end teams are frequently getting results against stronger teams now, more so than during AVB's time in my opinion and this makes it harder to grind out results from superior quality alone....plus the gap in quality is reduced)

AVB made us predictable and uncreative, we have remained so since then and have been figured out by teams as we have remained fairly flat, slow in possession, devoid of width and creativity with an isolated striker up top. Teams have had longer to study us and are now more astute at preparing an effective game plan to counter us (especially compared to AVB's initial season when we had Bale capable of ripping up the game plans of the best team in Europe)