Bolton to forfeit

[Jay The Yid]

Get on with it! Life goes on.

All the best to Fabrice and his family. Great news this evening.

 

[Adam456]

Much as I think we should keep the positive feelings going regarding Muamba. This does seem to be turning into the footballing equivalent of princess diana's death, and the poor fella isn't even dead. the replay should be at WHL and I'm sure Bolton will play and mores the point will WANT to play

I was saying this earlier to a friend. It's very sad for him and I wish him well but the outpouring of grief, gestures of solidarity etc. seem utterly disproportionate to what has occurred

One phrase being bandied around constantly on twitter etc. is 'puts things into perspective'.

A millionaire footballer with access to the finest medical care nearly dies of a heart attack in the same week as 20+ kids from the one school are horribly killed in a bloodbath of a bus crash. The former is the subject of worldwide incessant tribute and 'solidarity' and the other hardly gets a mention from anybody outside of the news channels

Now THAT puts things into perspective :-|

 

[spud]

I was saying this earlier to a friend. It's very sad for him and I wish him well but the outpouring of grief, gestures of solidarity etc. seem utterly disproportionate to what has occurred

One phrase being bandied around constantly on twitter etc. is 'puts things into perspective'.

A millionaire footballer with access to the finest medical care nearly dies of a heart attack in the same week as 20+ kids from the one school are horribly killed in a bloodbath of a bus crash. The former is the subject of worldwide incessant tribute and 'solidarity' and the other hardly gets a mention from anybody outside of the news channels

Now THAT puts things into perspective :-|

Well said. Repped.

 

[Dan Yeats]

Whilst the tendency that some people have towards pornographic emotional exhibitionism in response to events like this is certainly distasteful, the majority of the responses I've seen have been nothing of the sort.

They've been proportionate and genuine expressions of empathy. Princess Diana style wailing is at one end of the spectrum, and hardnosed uber-cynics are at the other. In between the two is an entirely reasonable human response.

Whilst objectively your point about the bus crash is very fair, the difference with Muamba is the immediacy of it. We see reports of tragedy on the news every day, and are desensitized to it. Muamba's collapse happened on live TV in real time in front of people, and moreover was completely unexpected, out of that desensitized context. That's what came as a shock to people, and gave it the power to force a level of empathy that was probably very unfamiliar to many of the people experiencing it.

 

[Spurger King]

I agree with Dan Yeats. Very well put.

 

[Mr Pink]

Whilst the tendency that some people have towards pornographic emotional exhibitionism in response to events like this is certainly distasteful, the majority of the responses I've seen have been nothing of the sort.

They've been proportionate and genuine expressions of empathy. Princess Diana style wailing is at one end of the spectrum, and hardnosed uber-cynics are at the other. In between the two is an entirely reasonable human response.

Whilst objectively your point about the bus crash is very fair, the difference with Muamba is the immediacy of it. We see reports of tragedy on the news every day, and are desensitized to it. Muamba's collapse happened on live TV in real time in front of people, and moreover was completely unexpected, out of that desensitized context. That's what came as a shock to people, and gave it the power to force a level of empathy that was probably very unfamiliar to many of the people experiencing it.

Nail on head.

 

[Misfit]

I'm not sure the coverage it's getting is all that huge, just that we're more sensetive to it. Not only do we follow football but we're in an even smaller subset in that we post on a forum about it.

Everyone I know at work, socially etc who don't follow football at all have heard of the situation but many couldn't tell you his correct name or who he played for - they might as easily blurt out Tottennham as Bolton. They just heard the story on the noos, as they did with the bus crash, the shootings in France etc.

The coverage of these sorts of stories are of course overblown but then we have multiple 24 hr news channels desperate for material and the interwebz pumping out al manner of shit, official and unofficial.

I fully expect in a few yrs times though, if current trend continues, that a Muamba type thing happens again (and we all very much hope he makes a recovery to live a happy life with his family), he survives and a yr later there's a moment of reflection.

We'll have well and truly jumped the shark as a consumer society then.

 

[Misfit]

Very good pojnt about empathy. I argued, correctly I might add, in another thread on here in chat that we are hardwired to be empathetic animals because of our social structures. This "I'm alright Jack" nonsense is not our default mode. We do give a shit.

 

[Dan Ashcroft]

I was saying this earlier to a friend. It's very sad for him and I wish him well but the outpouring of grief, gestures of solidarity etc. seem utterly disproportionate to what has occurred

One phrase being bandied around constantly on twitter etc. is 'puts things into perspective'.

A millionaire footballer with access to the finest medical care nearly dies of a heart attack in the same week as 20+ kids from the one school are horribly killed in a bloodbath of a bus crash. The former is the subject of worldwide incessant tribute and 'solidarity' and the other hardly gets a mention from anybody outside of the news channels

Now THAT puts things into perspective :-|

Indeed. Bit like the massacre of 92 people in Norway was largely ignored by the media because some junkie in Camden ODed on the same day.

One death is a tragedy, a thousand is a statistic and all that.

 

[sim0n]

What I would like to happen, and actually what I think will happen, is for the game to go ahead at WHL and the proceeds be given to an appropriate charity.

Yeah, I think the forfeit rumor doesn't make sense. More likely it's gonna be "Win it for Fabrice!!" That's what he'd want, let's do it for Muamba kind of thing. Money for charity would be a nice touch, but a forfeit makes no sense.

 

[rawhide]

Whilst the tendency that some people have towards pornographic emotional exhibitionism in response to events like this is certainly distasteful, the majority of the responses I've seen have been nothing of the sort.

They've been proportionate and genuine expressions of empathy. Princess Diana style wailing is at one end of the spectrum, and hardnosed uber-cynics are at the other. In between the two is an entirely reasonable human response.

Whilst objectively your point about the bus crash is very fair, the difference with Muamba is the immediacy of it. We see reports of tragedy on the news every day, and are desensitized to it. Muamba's collapse happened on live TV in real time in front of people, and moreover was completely unexpected, out of that desensitized context. That's what came as a shock to people, and gave it the power to force a level of empathy that was probably very unfamiliar to many of the people experiencing it.

This. Brilliantly put.

I'm not sure the coverage it's getting is all that huge, just that we're more sensetive to it. Not only do we follow football but we're in an even smaller subset in that we post on a forum about it.

Everyone I know at work, socially etc who don't follow football at all have heard of the situation but many couldn't tell you his correct name or who he played for - they might as easily blurt out Tottennham as Bolton. They just heard the story on the noos, as they did with the bus crash, the shootings in France etc.

The coverage of these sorts of stories are of course overblown but then we have multiple 24 hr news channels desperate for material and the interwebz pumping out al manner of shit, official and unofficial.

I fully expect in a few yrs times though, if current trend continues, that a Muamba type thing happens again (and we all very much hope he makes a recovery to live a happy life with his family), he survives and a yr later there's a moment of reflection.

We'll have well and truly jumped the shark as a consumer society then.

And this. Some of us (not me) are in an even smaller subset, as they were actually there when it happened, first hand witnesses.

 

[Riandor]

I don't think either team should forfeit and hope neither feels the need to.

Muamba is still in bad shape, but improving and let's all hope that continues first and formost. It is heartwarming to see that even the arguments on here are all because everyone's heart is in the right place.

But the show must go on and people will heal faster if they face things sooner.

Unless the players are sostressed by events that they simply cannot play at the lan e so soon, then I can only see a replay at WHL as a good thing for them in the long term.

If they don't play it then what about the league game or next season? How long do you hide from the venue of what was horrific, but not a tragedy! (and praying it stays that way).

As others have said, FM would want the match to go ahead and i could see a very determined Bolton playing very well. From a football only perspective it could even give them the fight to beat us as I believe it will be the Spurs players who would be the most unsure.

The player first and football second, but the football must go on.

R.

 

[Armstrong_11]

i wouldn't want to progress on the forfeit. if we win, i want to do so beating every team that comes our way. If we lose, at least we will go down fighting.

 

[Adam456]

Whilst the tendency that some people have towards pornographic emotional exhibitionism in response to events like this is certainly distasteful, the majority of the responses I've seen have been nothing of the sort.

They've been proportionate and genuine expressions of empathy. Princess Diana style wailing is at one end of the spectrum, and hardnosed uber-cynics are at the other. In between the two is an entirely reasonable human response.

Whilst objectively your point about the bus crash is very fair, the difference with Muamba is the immediacy of it. We see reports of tragedy on the news every day, and are desensitized to it. Muamba's collapse happened on live TV in real time in front of people, and moreover was completely unexpected, out of that desensitized context. That's what came as a shock to people, and gave it the power to force a level of empathy that was probably very unfamiliar to many of the people experiencing it.

You're quite right that when something is happening live and possibly in front of your then it's more shocking. I saw a guy drive a truck over a cliff to his death when I was 10 and I was pretty shook up. But how many of these sports stars, celebs etc. from all over Europe were at WHL or even watching on TV ? How many had actually heard of Muamba beforehand. And even if they were watching on TV there was virtually no footage and he was surrounded immediately by physios, paramedics etc. I was watching on TV in a pub but because of the rugby and Paddy's day noise I couldn't hear the commentary and so the first we knew of it being anything more than a hamstring was on the BBC match blog about 5-10 mins later. Without meaning to belittle anything, that's how non-shocking the actual TV footage was.

And, of course, footballers are supposed to be super-fit and therefore not have heart attacks. But there is actually plenty of precedent now. MV Foe, the Sevilla player, Terry Yorath's teenage son (admittedly only kicking a ball in back garden) and another I forget. Add to that the gun drama in the ACN and the suicide of the German keeper and Gary Speed, the York player who swallowed his tongue etc. and death in football really isn't that uncommon.

You're right that people have become desensitised to road accidents, plane crashes etc. and that's bad enough by itself. But desensitisation in adults is an immediate reaction, not a measured response, such as what you write about an event several hours later. SC aside (as it happened in our match), if an adult thinks about something long enough to write his thoughts his or her thoughts on a general site and still considers that writing about Muamba instead of the 20 dead kids is appropriate then I would say that person lacks REAL perspective

As I mentioned once before in another thread, he's not quite as bright as some of the other pundits (and that's saying something) but I'll always be impressed by Alan Shearer. He was asked if he was dissapointed to be injured and miss the last 3 games of his final season and replied something like

'How can I possibly say I'm dissapointed, I've lived the dream.....captained my country'.

That's perspective

 

[vegassd]

SC aside (as it happened in our match), if an adult thinks about something long enough to write his thoughts his or her thoughts on a general site and still considers that writing about Muamba instead of the 20 dead kids is appropriate then I would say that person lacks REAL perspective

I think the problem with that statement is that it implies each person on the planet should only really be concerned with the VERY worst thing that is happening on the planet.

When something bad happens in your life you will feel bad and have a moan about it. In reality you are still better off than about 95% of the global population, but it's your life and your environment so it makes you want to have a grumble. Human nature and perfectly acceptable imo.

There is so much bad out there (never mind 20 kids in a bus... think about thousands dying of starvation) that it's impossible to show genuine remorse for all of it. It's natural for people to show a sense of sorrow for things closer to their own spectrum of experience.

 

[Montasura]

I don't think either team should forfeit and hope neither feels the need to.

Muamba is still in bad shape, but improving and let's all hope that continues first and formost. It is heartwarming to see that even the arguments on here are all because everyone's heart is in the right place.

But the show must go on and people will heal faster if they face things sooner.

Unless the players are sostressed by events that they simply cannot play at the lan e so soon, then I can only see a replay at WHL as a good thing for them in the long term.

If they don't play it then what about the league game or next season? How long do you hide from the venue of what was horrific, but not a tragedy! (and praying it stays that way).

As others have said, FM would want the match to go ahead and i could see a very determined Bolton playing very well. From a football only perspective it could even give them the fight to beat us as I believe it will be the Spurs players who would be the most unsure.

The player first and football second, but the football must go on.

R.

Agreed. I relate this bit to something like a car or bike crash.

20 years ago I crashed my dads car, driving at 80mph, wearing no seatbelt. The car was a complete and utter write off and by all accounts I should never have escaped alive, let alone walk out with a few cuts and bumps.

Obviously I was seriously shaken, and the fragility of life had become all to apparent to a young fearless 20 year old. At the time I said I was never driving again and, ironically, it was my dad whose car I had just trashed who almost forced me back out onto the roads. Had he not done so I really don't know that I would still be driving to this day, so scared was I.

it really is a classic case of when you fall off your bike you just have to get right back on, and the same principle needs to apply to both sets of players. If left too long then that mental block against playing at WHL will become stronger and start to become a part of the very fabric of that person.

This match absolutely NEEDS to happen now moreso than ever before, not for the football itself, but for the players.

 

[AngerManagement]

If Bolton forfeit (which I don't think they will by any means) I wouldn't feel any way about it.

I was at the ground, I saw FM dropped and thought he had died just meters from where I was sat. It was emotional yes but life goes on, if Bolton players feel too distressed to play at the Lane so soon or indeed in the FA cup I/we will respect their decision.

I don't think it would matter, or make a cup win any less special though. Its not ideal and of course we would rather have progressed under different circumstances but if that is the way the cards are dealt then so be it and on to the next one.

Chelsea in the semi is what awaits and whether we get there by winning a game of football or by forfeit the end result will be the same, we will have a massive game on our hands at Wembley against Chelsea.

I for one have left the incident in the past, I send all my well wishes to FM and his family/friends but as far as Spurs are concerned life and the season just has to roll on.

I won't support us any less if we get to the semi's without having to win a quarter final and if we win the cup as a result it won't be any less special to me and I would hope the club in general.

I am sure Bolton will play, and play harder at that, so none of this will even be an issue in my opinion.

 

[Adam456]

I think the problem with that statement is that it implies each person on the planet should only really be concerned with the VERY worst thing that is happening on the planet.

When something bad happens in your life you will feel bad and have a moan about it. In reality you are still better off than about 95% of the global population, but it's your life and your environment so it makes you want to have a grumble. Human nature and perfectly acceptable imo.

There is so much bad out there (never mind 20 kids in a bus... think about thousands dying of starvation) that it's impossible to show genuine remorse for all of it. It's natural for people to show a sense of sorrow for things closer to their own spectrum of experience.

Good points and yes you could infer that I'm saying you should only be concerened with the very worst thing. But I'm not

Perfectly natural for people to show sorrow for closer things. But there have been people quite removed from this going well overboard. And people within football acting like it's the tragedy to end all tragedies.

That's the perspective problem I'm talking about

 

[yiddo_4eva]

Has anyone seen any comments or heard any mention of when Bolton could make a decision?

Obviously the priority was to always ensure he shows positive signs and thankfully now, FM has shown physical signs of improving, everyone involved will be able to focus on coming games.

 

[vegassd]

Good points and yes you could infer that I'm saying you should only be concerened with the very worst thing. But I'm not

Perfectly natural for people to show sorrow for closer things. But there have been people quite removed from this going well overboard. And people within football acting like it's the tragedy to end all tragedies.

That's the perspective problem I'm talking about

Yeah, I know what you mean about people sometimes jumping on a grief bandwagon because it seems a more popular issue. I still think it's very harsh to be critical of somebody (celebrity or otherwise) showing remorse/regret/support for any situation.

But anyway... it sounds like the lad is on the mend which is pretty remarkable, so hopefully all this discussion will be rendered moot in a couple of weeks time.