Buy "ordinary" Experience or Coach what we have debate

[Bus-Conductor]

The context:

We are being linked with McCarthy again. Some of us think that this type of signing is exactly the type we should be avoiding. It's not that he's a bad footballer, he's not, he's decent, but we believe that he either doesn't represent enough of an improvement on what we have or what we are close to developing to warrant the fee and wages that will be involved and these resources could be better spent.

Various posts were exchanged by these were the last two:

This was a @THFCSPURS19 response to @IGSpur

You say Veljkovic is 100% ready but I'm sure Pochettino and the coaches, the academy staff and our analysts know far more about whether this is the case or not. I think he's good enough as a back-up DM, but certainly not as a starting DM.

The bit about comparing videos of players is a bit ridiculous IMO. Means nothing.

To which I responded:

I'm really fed up with reading this "coaches think he the player's not ready" bullshit. Mostly who's not ready are the coaches. They are not ready to put their bollocks on the line and trust their ability to coach footballers to be better, individually and collectively, physically and mentally, they are not ready to trust their ability to achieve tactical excellence, so they fall back on "buying experience".

And I didn't just say development group, I said already here too. Forget comparing videos, I watched Mason utterly dominate McCarthy in his own back yard. He saw nearly three times as much ball as him (Mason 90 passes/ Mc 34 passes), still gave it away less (Mason 88.9%/ Mc 82.4%). he made more tackles, more interceptions (Mas 2/3 - Mc 1/1), he made three key passes to McCarthy's none.

So McCarthy, with his "6" years of experience was thoroughly outplayed by a kid having his first season, not just of EPL football, but of any real football.

Mason is industrious, tenacious, and can play in both halves of the pitch, and both him and Bentaleb have more character, are more vocal and have more pitch leadership.

We do not need to spend 15-20m on a player when, with better coaching, we have at least one here who could be much better, and IMO already is at least as good.



.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I'm moving it here so as not to clog up the ITK discussion thread.

 

[Blake Griffin]

obviously my stance on this subject is known. if we want to be a top club then we need top players, we can't buy top players for the most part but we can develop them. we can buy all the mccarthys in the world but it won't get us to where we ultimately want to be.

 

[mpickard2087]

I think we do need a midfield anchor, and specifically someone who reads/sees the game well, uses the ball and will be the most intelligent player on the pitch for us. That's likely to be an experienced player for now, with the likes of Veljkovic as understudy who can learn and over the course of the season get plenty of games. Someone like Carrick for instance would be ideal.

That would be to sit in the middle of a cm3 and free up last seasons pair. For Poch's system I don't think it will be 'successful' so would rather not spend big money because as I said in the ITK thread earlier, the same problems will keep occurring.

 

[beats1]

Spending £15-20m on McCarthy is silly since he has had a poor season, Everton fans he hasn't kicked on since they signed him. One of the issues is that he was move further forward and he was very poor in the box to box role that barry usually plays for them.

He has been very poor on the ball going forward which is why has received criticism like from Paul Mcgrath

He wrote in the Sunday World: “James McCarthy is one of the players who is not quite realising the potential we all wanted to see from him as he made his way through the ranks at Wigan.

“McCarthy had a bit of the Keano look to him in his formative years. He appeared to be a kid who had the potential to develop into a star of the Ireland team, a player who could dominate matches.

“Sadly, he has not quite managed to step up to that level so far and we saw another example of him failing to grasp a game last weekend.

“He strikes me as a polite and quiet young man and, while there is nothing wrong with that – I was never a shouter and a screamer on the pitch after all – you need a presence that lets the opposition know you are ready for the battle.”

 

[InOffMeLeftShin]

I'm not sure McCarthy is the answer but I'd still like to see a top class central midfielder come in to join what we already have. That's not to say I don't think our youngsters are ready but I do think they should really have to earn it.

We've been doing some studies with work about the state of US tennis and the fact that there had been a real lull in the lack of juniors coming through. The conclusion of the 'experts' was that it was just a lack of talent. However there is a growing belief that U.S. Tennis was just gifting junior players far too much. They were building academies where everything was done for them (even down to having somebody collect dirty clothes out of their locker and washing folding it and putting it back so that next morning they magically had clean clothes). The kids would get travel paid, would be allowed to skip qualifying and would even be granted wildcards to majors before they had shown success as a junior.

Finally the USTA decided that enough was enough and they were spending too much money and they took away a lot of these free opportunities. All of a sudden you have US juniors winning all over the place. Every junior grand slam is being won by a U.S. Junior.

Effectively it's the old fight or flight instinct. Give a player an easy ride and they coast. Make it almost impossibly hard and one of two things happens, they either fight and become super hungry to prove themselves or they bemoan the lack of chances and complain how hard things are. Group 1 can go on to be world beaters, group 2 will probably be league 1 journeymen.

It shouldn't be too easy. If we can get quality in then we should and the youngsters are going to have to fight in training and impress whenever they get the chance. They know that it is possible now with the youngsters that have already made the first team so we should see a super hungry group of winners fighting for their shot.

 

[IGSpur]

There's almost a certain arrogance where people on here think they know more than the many staff that work on the club.

Arrogance is probably too harsh a word, and I'm not accusing anyone in particular, but it's just the way I feel.

I have said this before. When AVB was here and all his coaching staff and all their knowledgeable team, you can go back in the archives, there were many youth posters saying that Bentaleb, Kane, Pritchard, Veljkovic and Carroll were ready for the first team.

If we said any of the above were ready for PL football we would almost certainly on this evidence been met with the response above and AVB would not have played any. Kane would have gone on loan last year most likely, and Bentaleb, well it's anyones guess where he would be, League One loan.

According to your logic, they would not be good enough and the arrogant, for want of a better word, advocates for the youth would apparently be proven wrong seeing as they could not break into the first team. However, with a manager prepared to play who he knows and trusts (Sherwood) what we found was in fact both Bentaleb and Kane were ready to step into the first team and had the ability to play PL football. Proving the advocates for them correct.

So would you admit that they(we) knew more than AVB and the coaching staff about the ability of our young players? Or are they still deluded to possibly think they could ever match McCarthy? Is it not possible that someone who has seen, let's say Veljkovic play, at least 20 times across Spurs u18, u21s, Serbia u21s, u20 WC and in the Championship cna make a judgement as to whether or not he has the ability to play in the PL, just as much as you would be able to judge if a Ligue 1/La Liga player could play in the PL

I am sure you have questioned transfer signings would that not make you arrogant for thinking you know better than the manager as well

 

[bat-chain]

I really agree with the opening post and like them I really like James McCarthy.

The only argument I would make is, should Bentaleb get injured for any length of time would it be fair on the young kids (funny I know given that Nabil is one) to say OK now get us to 5th or higher. It's so difficult, I imagine it's tough for Pochettino too.

 

[IGSpur]

I'm not sure McCarthy is the answer but I'd still like to see a top class central midfielder come in to join what we already have. That's not to say I don't think our youngsters are ready but I do think they should really have to earn it.

We've been doing some studies with work about the state of US tennis and the fact that there had been a real lull in the lack of juniors coming through. The conclusion of the 'experts' was that it was just a lack of talent. However there is a growing belief that U.S. Tennis was just gifting junior players far too much. They were building academies where everything was done for them (even down to having somebody collect dirty clothes out of their locker and washing folding it and putting it back so that next morning they magically had clean clothes). The kids would get travel paid, would be allowed to skip qualifying and would even be granted wildcards to majors before they had shown success as a junior.

Finally the USTA decided that enough was enough and they were spending too much money and they took away a lot of these free opportunities. All of a sudden you have US juniors winning all over the place. Every junior grand slam is being won by a U.S. Junior.

Effectively it's the old fight or flight instinct. Give a player an easy ride and they coast. Make it almost impossibly hard and one of two things happens, they either fight and become super hungry to prove themselves or they bemoan the lack of chances and complain how hard things are. Group 1 can go on to be world beaters, group 2 will probably be league 1 journeymen.

It shouldn't be too easy. If we can get quality in then we should and the youngsters are going to have to fight in training and impress whenever they get the chance. They know that it is possible now with the youngsters that have already made the first team so we should see a super hungry group of winners fighting for their shot.

The difference is we have already produced the players of the necessary quality, we are just now blocking their path. If we wanted them to fight for their place, fine but them let them earn it from a top class player rather than refilling it with average players

 

[THFCSPURS19]

I have said this before. When AVB was here and all his coaching staff and all their knowledgeable team, you can go back in the archives, there were many youth posters saying that Bentaleb, Kane, Pritchard, Veljkovic and Carroll were ready for the first team.

If we any of the above were ready for PL football we would almost certainly on this evidence been met with the response above and AVB would not have played any. Kane would have gone on loan last year most likely, and Bentaleb, well it's anyones guess where he would be, League One loan.

According to your logic, they would not be good enough and the arrogant, for want of a better word, advocated for the youth would apparently be proven wrong seeing as they could not break into the first team. However, with a manager prepared to play who he knows and trusts (Sherwood) what we found was in fact both Bentaleb and Kane were ready to step into the first team and had the ability to play PL football. Proving the advocates for them correct.

So would you admit that they(we) knew more than AVB and the coaching staff about the ability of our young players? Or are they still deluded to possibly think they could ever match McCarthy? Is it not possible that someone who has seen, let's say Veljkovic play, at least 20 times across Spurs u18, u21s, Serbia u21s, u20 WC and in the Championship cna make a judgement as to whether or not he has the ability to play in the PL, just as much as you would be able to judge if a Ligue 1/La Liga player could play in the PL

I am sure you have questioned transfer signings would that not make you arrogant for thinking you know better than the manager as well

I'm sure the staff have seen every match Veljkovic has ever played, and they record every training session, so I do trust their judgement.

Anyways, we know AVB was anti-youth, whereas Pochettino promotes youth, so if he and his staff thinks a youth player isn't ready, I'll trust them.

Isn't everyone assuming Veljkovic won't be given a chance though?

One last point- you do realise Sherwood only started Kane for 6 matches in the PL? I don't get why him and Bentaleb are always grouped when people talk about Sherwood's advocacy of youth.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Spending £15-20m on McCarthy is silly since he has had a poor season, Everton fans he hasn't kicked on since they signed him. One of the issues is that he was move further forward and he was very poor in the box to box role that barry usually plays for them.

He has been very poor on the ball going forward which is why has received criticism like from Paul Mcgrath

He wrote in the Sunday World: “James McCarthy is one of the players who is not quite realising the potential we all wanted to see from him as he made his way through the ranks at Wigan.

“McCarthy had a bit of the Keano look to him in his formative years. He appeared to be a kid who had the potential to develop into a star of the Ireland team, a player who could dominate matches.

“Sadly, he has not quite managed to step up to that level so far and we saw another example of him failing to grasp a game last weekend.

“He strikes me as a polite and quiet young man and, while there is nothing wrong with that – I was never a shouter and a screamer on the pitch after all – you need a presence that lets the opposition know you are ready for the battle.”

All the Everton fans on the forums rate him extremely highly, so I don't know where you've got that from.

 

[Mullers]

I'm sure the staff have seen every match Veljkovic has ever played, and they record every training session, so I do trust their judgement.

Anyways, we know AVB was anti-youth, whereas Pochettino promotes youth, so if he and his staff thinks a youth player isn't ready, I'll trust them.

Isn't everyone assuming Veljkovic won't be given a chance though?

One last point- you do realise Sherwood only started Kane for 6 matches in the PL? I don't get why him and Bentaleb are always grouped when people talk about Sherwood's advocacy of youth.

I don't know he was anti youth, how do you know he was anti youth?

 

[Blake Griffin]

@THFCSPURS19 i can't quote the post where you say it's arrogance to question pochettino's judgment regarding the youth but this is no different to you questioning a pochettino team selection/formation/substitution etc. if we all just went along with everything anyone at the club does then this would be a very boring forum.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

I don't know he was anti youth, how do you know he was anti youth?

Based on his team selection.

 

[Mullers]

The context:

We are being linked with McCarthy again. Some of us think that this type of signing is exactly the type we should be avoiding. It's not that he's a bad footballer, he's not, he's decent, but we believe that he either doesn't represent enough of an improvement on what we have or what we are close to developing.

Various posts were exchanged by these were the last two:

This was a @THFCSPURS19 response to @IGSpur




To which I responded:

I'm really fed up with reading this "coaches think he the player's not ready" bullshit. Mostly who's not ready are the coaches. They are not ready to put their bollocks on the line and trust their ability to coach footballers to be better, individually and collectively, physically and mentally, they are not ready to trust their ability to achieve tactical excellence, so they fall back on "buying experience".

And I didn't just say development group, I said already here too. Forget comparing videos, I watched Mason utterly dominate McCarthy in his own back yard. He saw nearly three times as much ball as him (Mason 90 passes/ Mc 34 passes), still gave it away less (Mason 88.9%/ Mc 82.4%). he made more tackles, more interceptions (Mas 2/3 - Mc 1/1), he made three key passes to McCarthy's none.

So McCarthy, with his "6" years of experience was thoroughly outplayed by a kid having his first season, not just of EPL football, but of any real football.

Mason is industrious, tenacious, and can play in both halves of the pitch, and both him and Bentaleb have more character, are more vocal and have more pitch leadership.

We do not need to spend 15-20m on a player when, with better coaching, we have at least one here who could be much better, and IMO already is at least as good.

20 million for McCarthy is seriously overpaying even 15 million is too much but if he doesn't get the players he wants when it is possible to get them, then things could blow up.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

@THFCSPURS19 i can't quote the post where you say it's arrogance to question pochettino's judgment regarding the youth but this is no different to you questioning a pochettino team selection/formation/substitution etc. if we all just went along with everything anyone at the club does then this would be a very boring forum.

I didn't say Pochettino's judgement, we have loads of backroom staff that work with the academy/development squad players and I'm sure they are all consulted before a decision is made.

 

[Mullers]

Based on his team selection.

That doesn't mean that he is anti necessarily, it could mean he simply thought they weren't ready. I'm not saying his decision is right but I think it's overly harsh to say that based on his team selection he was anti youth and remember his team selections got us 5th with record points.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

That doesn't mean that he is anti necessarily, it could mean he simply thought they weren't ready. I'm not saying his decision is right but I think it's overly harsh to say that based on his team selection he was anti youth and remember his team selections got us 5th with record points.

You're probably right. He certainly played fewer youth players than any other of our recent managers though.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

obviously my stance on this subject is known. if we want to be a top club then we need top players, we can't buy top players for the most part but we can develop them. we can buy all the mccarthys in the world but it won't get us to where we ultimately want to be.

I don't even believe we can or will develop many /top4 class players (if we do it's great and a bonus) my biggest gripe that with excellent coaching, a unilateral coaching philosophy that teaches all of our development groups the same methods and ideology then at the very least what we can produce is players who remove the necessity to purchase - for the most part - everything but the top class or those with - clear - potential to be very top4 class. I'd rather we spent 26m on Lamela than spent that on 5 Stambouli's or 2 McCarthy's. The very least our academy can do is provide squad/team stop gaps, better than that is a massive bonus.

 

[IGSpur]

I'm sure the staff have seen every match Veljkovic has ever played, and they record every training session, so I do trust their judgement.

Anyways, we know AVB was anti-youth, whereas Pochettino promotes youth, so if he and his staff thinks a youth player isn't ready, I'll trust them.

Isn't everyone assuming Veljkovic won't be given a chance though?

One last point- you do realise Sherwood only started Kane for 6 matches in the PL? I don't get why him and Bentaleb are always grouped when people talk about Sherwood's advocacy of youth.

Do you reckon? Genuine question I wouldn't have thought that they;d come in and sit down and watch every single match every single young player has played in. I thought they would have been given an update by someone in the youth team watched a few from last season then began watching themselves.

We'' have to see regarding the 2nd point. Sherwood obviously thought Veljkovic could play in the PL hence he played him for a bit. If Veljkovic went on loan to Sherwood this season and handled the PL would you accept that Pochettino was wrong in his judgement.

And I am assuming he won't get a chance but the original argument was I don't want to waste our money on a signing I believe most will be underwhelmed by halfway through the season, when we could have gone till Jan trying to youth and reevaluated.

And Kane only played 6 towards the end because Adebayor was doing a good job and didn't deserve to be dropped