Ched Evans Jailed...

[SpursOldBoy]

Yeah but my comment didn't relate to that at all, it was a response to what I found to be a ludicrous statement that if you can't remember something then you can't have consented.

I'm not sure that what I said was that ludicrous to be honest! This is an extract from the court summary which can be found here.

https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans

"He went on to explain: "A woman clearly does not have the capacity to make a choice if she is completely unconscious through the effects of drink and drugs, but there are various stages of consciousness, from being wide awake to dim awareness of reality. In a state of dim and drunken awareness you may, or may not, be in a condition to make choices. So you will need to consider the evidence of the complainant's state and decide these two questions: was she in a condition in which she was capable of making any choice one way or another? If you are sure that she was not, then she did not consent. If, on the other hand, you conclude that she chose to agree to sexual intercourse, or may have done, then you must find the defendants not guilty."

He went on to direct the jury about the requirement relating to the individual defendant's belief about whether or not the complainant was consenting. He gave clear directions to the jury about how they should approach that issue in the context of the alcohol which had been consumed by the complainant."

I've bolded the bit that I believe supports my statement.

The report also covers the issue of her taking drugs (which happened days before) and the appeal, which was thrown out.

 

[OneHotspur1988]

Looks like he's off to Oldham.

I imagine hes going to get abused by fans when/if he plays.

 

[Main Man]

McDonald got off because he was thought to have reasonable cause to believe she consented. Evans was deemed to have no such reasonable cause hence he was convicted.

Her remembering or not is not a factor in her being deemed to have given consent or not.

Her possible increase in sobriety bears no reflection on whether Evans was given consent or not. The jury decided that consent was not given on the basis of what they heard and saw. Evans also arrived shortly after she did so the likelihood of her being significantly sober are slim in any case.

Just watch the video.

She is clearly not intoxicated to the level suggested. She walks unaided in heels and even bends down and picks a pizza box up off the floor.

Think of that latter part, we all know how difficult it is to make such movements when under the influence.

She may well have drank whilst in the hotel room, but you yourself have confirmed Evans arrived shortly after they did so that isn't likely is it?

But, if she really wasn't in a state then surely McDonald should be charged also? He has rang his mate to come and bang a lass that he is having sex with first. He has facilitated rape, surely? He has actually organised for a friend to rape a woman after he has had sex with her...

 

[Main Man]

He has freedom to work. I'm saying people shouldn't employ him, not that they can't.

Also, is it a contradiction? He is a convicted rapist. This is literally a fact.

It is quite clearly a contradiction.

You are saying he is a convicted rapist which is fact and cannot be questioned.

Fair enough, but then you say he is free to work but that should be questioned.

Make your mind up. You are bleating morality as and when it suits.

 

[Main Man]

Looks like he's off to Oldham.

I imagine hes going to get abused by fans when/if he plays.

If he really is a rapist, then the players wont play with him.

Do you really think players give that much care to fans etc?

He will be able to play in a stadium where everybody boo's, but he wont be able to play with a bunch of men who think he is a rapist.

 

[Drexl]

If he really is a rapist, then the players wont play with him.

Do you really think players give that much care to fans etc?

He will be able to play in a stadium where everybody boo's, but he wont be able to play with a bunch of men who think he is a rapist.

John Terry even though he is a racist, still plays with black footballers at Chelsea, so did Suarez at Liverpool, they are professionals, they just get on with the job, am sure that will be the case with Evans too and his behaviour

 

[mike_l]

I'm not sure that what I said was that ludicrous to be honest! This is an extract from the court summary which can be found here.

https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans

"He went on to explain: "A woman clearly does not have the capacity to make a choice if she is completely unconscious through the effects of drink and drugs, but there are various stages of consciousness, from being wide awake to dim awareness of reality. In a state of dim and drunken awareness you may, or may not, be in a condition to make choices. So you will need to consider the evidence of the complainant's state and decide these two questions: was she in a condition in which she was capable of making any choice one way or another? If you are sure that she was not, then she did not consent. If, on the other hand, you conclude that she chose to agree to sexual intercourse, or may have done, then you must find the defendants not guilty."

He went on to direct the jury about the requirement relating to the individual defendant's belief about whether or not the complainant was consenting. He gave clear directions to the jury about how they should approach that issue in the context of the alcohol which had been consumed by the complainant."

I've bolded the bit that I believe supports my statement.

The report also covers the issue of her taking drugs (which happened days before) and the appeal, which was thrown out.

Again, I didn't even relate my comment to the Evans case, I said that just because you can't remember something doesn't automatically mean you didn't or couldn't consent to it, which you said was true by default.

 

[jurgen]

When you're using John Terry as an example to support why a convicted and unrepentant rapist should be allowed to walk back into football as if nothing happened, you know you've gone all the way down the Dapper Laughs rabbit hole..

 

[mike_l]

If she can't remember it she was obviously not in a state to consent that night.

If you're so drunk as to not remember what you did the night before, how on earth can someone assume she was lucid during that time? The biggest assumption anyone can make about this case is that "Even though she can't remember anything the next morning, she was sober enough to know what she was doing that night." The fact that she can't remember surely means she wasn't in the state to consent?

Well this is the part that I disagree with. Sometimes I can drink shitloads and not feel or seem pissed, sometimes I can have a small amount and feel more drunk, feel rough as fuck the next day and not remember certain things. Main point being, I don't have to be totally paralitic to suffer memory loss from alcohol, likewise I may be absolutely wankered but not appear too bad to others.

 

[RuskyM]

You are saying he is a convicted rapist which is fact and cannot be questioned.

You do realise he spent two and half years in prison after being convicted of rape, yes? That happened because he was convicted. For rape. He was convicted because the court ruled he raped someone. He's been in prison and everything.

Now, whether or not he's a rapist (which he is but let's pretend for a second) will be combed over again when the appeal comes through. Which he should surely wait for and let it speak for itself if he is so obviously innocent?

Fair enough, but then you say he is free to work but that should be questioned.

It should. Again, you cannot issue one blanket rule against all possible offenders. However, my hope is that since he a) committed a terrible crime, b) doesn't either understand or care that he committed a terrible crime, c) continues to play victim even though the actual victim's been forced to move five times by utter vermin acting for him, d) hasn't done anything about that and e) wants to maintain innocence whilst also trying to go back to his normal life (this is the weirdest part for me, he can't exist outside of his offence whilst he's still fighting against it. Literally no one else gets this privilege), the chairmen will see where the line in the sand should be drawn. I don't get how "should we hire an unrepentant rapist?" can have anything other than a negative answer.

You are bleating morality as and when it suits.

I'd say the position of "don't let rapists earn a lot of money or go back to life like nothing happened" is a pretty decent place to bleat morality from.

 

[mike_l]

I'm not sure that what I said was that ludicrous to be honest! This is an extract from the court summary which can be found here.

https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans

"He went on to explain: "A woman clearly does not have the capacity to make a choice if she is completely unconscious through the effects of drink and drugs, but there are various stages of consciousness, from being wide awake to dim awareness of reality. In a state of dim and drunken awareness you may, or may not, be in a condition to make choices. So you will need to consider the evidence of the complainant's state and decide these two questions: was she in a condition in which she was capable of making any choice one way or another? If you are sure that she was not, then she did not consent. If, on the other hand, you conclude that she chose to agree to sexual intercourse, or may have done, then you must find the defendants not guilty."

He went on to direct the jury about the requirement relating to the individual defendant's belief about whether or not the complainant was consenting. He gave clear directions to the jury about how they should approach that issue in the context of the alcohol which had been consumed by the complainant."

I've bolded the bit that I believe supports my statement.

The report also covers the issue of her taking drugs (which happened days before) and the appeal, which was thrown out.

from being wide awake to dim awareness of reality. In a state of dim and drunken awareness you may, or may not, be in a condition to make choices.

You're using this line to support your claim that if you can't remember something then by default you can't have consented, yet within the sentence it clearly says may or may not be in a condition to make choices, so obviously it isn't as black and white as you seem to believe.

 

[RuskyM]

If he really is a rapist, then the players wont play with him.

I'm okay with you saying "if he's still a rapist" so long as you never say "innocent until proven guilty" again. You cannot pretend that the justice system is the decider between guilt and innocence, and then ignore the ruling when it doesn't go the way you thought it would. Anything else is hypocritical. You also cannot defend his right to move on with his life as the law dictates he can, whilst also pretending the reason why he was removed from society doesn't matter.

 

[rich75]

Just watch the video.

She is clearly not intoxicated to the level suggested. She walks unaided in heels and even bends down and picks a pizza box up off the floor.

Think of that latter part, we all know how difficult it is to make such movements when under the influence.

She may well have drank whilst in the hotel room, but you yourself have confirmed Evans arrived shortly after they did so that isn't likely is it?

But, if she really wasn't in a state then surely McDonald should be charged also? He has rang his mate to come and bang a lass that he is having sex with first. He has facilitated rape, surely? He has actually organised for a friend to rape a woman after he has had sex with her...

I've given you the jurys reasoning, if you don't like it then you're free to do so.

I'm no going to get into a debate where every post I have to reiterate the same thing though.

 

[225]

I wonder if, should it even be possible that the original conviction and case was a bodge, they would ever accept or entertain a fair outcome here. If CPS or the police where the prosecution in the case then it would open the door for all sorts of compensation, right?

Considering his position within football before (not knowing his wages, but assuming they'd say he could have been in the PL by now) then that alone would add up to a few million, surely? Law isn't free from corruption, so I'd hope that it wouldn't be an issue here.

In reality, if he's still decent (despite his time out of the game) then I imagine that he'd not get that bad a reception from their fans, especially based on the support from SU fans throughout the whole thing. If he pays as well as he used to, the home fans will soon forget I'm sure.

Until he keeps his beanie hat on in training, then it'll all resurface

 

[Shanks]

Some of these posts remind me of an experience I once had when I was in my early 20's.

Went to the local night club called Pantiles, got completely battered with the football team lads (played for the nightclub team at that point), ended up going back to a girls house.

I literally have no memory from then, my next memory is waking up in a room, with no clothes on, my clothes weren't in the room either, the room was pink, and had shit loads of teddy bears around the place.

I must have laid there trying to figure out where the fuck I was for about 30 minutes, when there was a knock at the door - naturally, I said come in, and a lady probably in her mid 50's walked into the room, with my clothes neatly folded and ironed (including boxers and socks).

I looked at her - she wasn't very nice, she was proper old and I was trying to figure out if this was the girl I went home with the night before - she left the clothes, along with a towel and left the room smiling at me.

I went and washed up in the bathroom, got dressed and walked sheepishly downstairs - I had figured out my plan of action, say thanks, and tell her that I had work to get to pretty urgently.

Walked into the room downstairs, and there was a bloke (Dad), the old bird (Mum), the daughter who I'd banged the night before, and her two little brothers sat around the table eating breakfast... probably one of the most awkward situations I've ever been in, as I couldn't remember the girl, but I got offered breakfast, and decided to eat before leaving.

Never saw her again, but it was a decent little breakfast, apart from the Dad not making eye contact with me once during breakfast.

 

[tototoner]

Looks like he's off to Oldham.

I imagine hes going to get abused by fans when/if he plays.

Until he scores, pardon the pun

 

[0-Tibsy-0]

Some of these posts remind me of an experience I once had when I was in my early 20's.

Went to the local night club called Pantiles, got completely battered with the football team lads (played for the nightclub team at that point), ended up going back to a girls house.

I literally have no memory from then, my next memory is waking up in a room, with no clothes on, my clothes weren't in the room either, the room was pink, and had shit loads of teddy bears around the place.

I must have laid there trying to figure out where the fuck I was for about 30 minutes, when there was a knock at the door - naturally, I said come in, and a lady probably in her mid 50's walked into the room, with my clothes neatly folded and ironed (including boxers and socks).

I looked at her - she wasn't very nice, she was proper old and I was trying to figure out if this was the girl I went home with the night before - she left the clothes, along with a towel and left the room smiling at me.

I went and washed up in the bathroom, got dressed and walked sheepishly downstairs - I had figured out my plan of action, say thanks, and tell her that I had work to get to pretty urgently.

Walked into the room downstairs, and there was a bloke (Dad), the old bird (Mum), the daughter who I'd banged the night before, and her two little brothers sat around the table eating breakfast... probably one of the most awkward situations I've ever been in, as I couldn't remember the girl, but I got offered breakfast, and decided to eat before leaving.

Never saw her again, but it was a decent little breakfast, apart from the Dad not making eye contact with me once during breakfast.

But...did you consent?

You could have had a mum/daughter threesome for all you know, you did say she was smiling...

 

[mike_l]

Some of these posts remind me of an experience I once had when I was in my early 20's.

Went to the local night club called Pantiles, got completely battered with the football team lads (played for the nightclub team at that point), ended up going back to a girls house.

I literally have no memory from then, my next memory is waking up in a room, with no clothes on, my clothes weren't in the room either, the room was pink, and had shit loads of teddy bears around the place.

I must have laid there trying to figure out where the fuck I was for about 30 minutes, when there was a knock at the door - naturally, I said come in, and a lady probably in her mid 50's walked into the room, with my clothes neatly folded and ironed (including boxers and socks).

I looked at her - she wasn't very nice, she was proper old and I was trying to figure out if this was the girl I went home with the night before - she left the clothes, along with a towel and left the room smiling at me.

I went and washed up in the bathroom, got dressed and walked sheepishly downstairs - I had figured out my plan of action, say thanks, and tell her that I had work to get to pretty urgently.

Walked into the room downstairs, and there was a bloke (Dad), the old bird (Mum), the daughter who I'd banged the night before, and her two little brothers sat around the table eating breakfast... probably one of the most awkward situations I've ever been in, as I couldn't remember the girl, but I got offered breakfast, and decided to eat before leaving.

Never saw her again, but it was a decent little breakfast, apart from the Dad not making eye contact with me once during breakfast.

I can't believe you breakfasted with a rapist!

 

[mike_l]

But...did you consent?

You could have had a mum/daughter threesome for all you know, you did say she was smiling...

Clearly not, he can't remember so he must've been too drunk to consent, that's the law right?

 

[0-Tibsy-0]

I can't believe you breakfasted with a rapist!

To be fair to her, by the letter of the law, a female can't be a rapist.