Club Statement 19 Nov 19 - Pochettino leaves

[C0YS]

Maybe I wasn’t being clear. This is mainly aimed at the non Spurs supporters that feel that Poch took a bunch of misfits and turned them into a great team on a shoestring budget and we’d be nothing without him. Would Dele and Kane have hit the heights they did without him? It’s impossible to tell but if we were always near the top of the league when he arrived then he wouldn’t have been afforded the opportunity to try out the youth. Like I said, I think it was the perfect partnership at the right time but I refuse to believe that we would have been lingering in mid table at the same time without him.

I mean, yeah its all hypothetical stuff, and you can make reasoned arguments. Definetly the perception of how far we had fallen post-redknapp was massively overstated. In my view we were a europa-qualifying team that transformed into a CL qualifying team with a few title tilts included.

My issue is that there is a section of Spurs fans who seem keen to violently break from the past, and in doing so they create counternarratives to underplay that during these years we came out of them in a position much stronger than we left, and how Poch was part of that. There is also this sort of cultish mentality that anything which isn't Mourinho is the best or something like that is some sort of anti-spurs opinion. It's a very hostile environment these days, and I frankly don't understand why it needs to be. Even hating Mourinho doesn't make you anti-spurs (I am broadly supportive of Jose, though I do not believe him to be perfect, nor was Poch and his stubborness), and wishing people well doesn't have anything to do with ones support of Spurs.

I dunno, it's like some ultra-defensive attitude that you get after a bad breakup, rather than appreciating things or even accepting the good with the bad, it's like no, lets destroy things. You had that to some extent post Redknapp and post Jol too. But it feels much stronger a reaction now. I suspect in part it might be due to the nature of the world now, where everything is hyper emotional and a more hostile world and in part it might be due to how Mourinho himself creates this us vs them mentality that can be very useful in a footballing context as well as controlling the narrative of the perception people have on him. Like if Mourinho was a politician he'd be a hyper-populist figure, it's sport though, so it's all part of the drama, and a bit of fun. I have seen plenty of occasions that deeply trouble me when people have received personal abuse on the basis of fringe opinions, which is not acceptable. Even questioning someones support for the club is worrying but, ok, fine. But I've seen it go much further than that and it sickens me.

 

[C0YS]

Don't forget super Jan and we had Walker there. Your acting like walker and Jan didn't play pre-poch. If anything its a mixture of both camps. He improved us massively and then underachieved. Then stood still as a club and levy has alluded to it being Poch fault on the transfer front.

Jan came from a season where his own manager said he couldn't defend and Walker was out of the England squad. Those players both improved dramatically under Poch.

I don't think he underachieved, except in his final year. Injuries didn't help, but nor did his stubbornness in the transfermarket or his attempt to change the way we play. Overall he achieved much more than was expected and much quicker than was expected of him. As is often the case success brings greater expectation and that hurt him. Ultimately, 5 years is a crazy long time in management these days, stagnation is inevitable. But Poch's stock is very high based on the work he did here, and for good reason. The football world is very different now than what it was in the past, but looking just at league position only Bill Nicholson achieved a greater run in terms of league position.

I know some people don't want to hear this, because it doesn't stand well in terms of where fans think this club should be. But his 2nd position finish was the best our club achieved in 53 years. A position we have only matched 4 times before and only bettered twice. Only Bill Nicholson achieved more top 4 finishes as a manager than Poch, and Poch in 5 years. Now league table finishes are much less volatile these days. Similarly, in the modern game, Nicholson would have been sacked in 1966 and 1970. Burkinshaw in 1977, and probably in 1980.

Now we can deal with hypotheticals all we like. We will never know, but what we did achieve was vastly above what our expectations were when we got him, and vastly better than where you would expect us to finish given our wage bill. It's for this reason he is now manager of PSG.

None of this btw contradicts the idea that maybe he should have gone. You can believe someone did a good job and accept it was time to move on. But if we were to go back in time, and I were to say we would be in two title runs (though the second maybe wasn't quite as competitive), qualify to the champions league 4 seasons in a row and reach a champions league final and end up with Mourinho as our manager. You'd think I'd be joking. Tottenham are in a different planet from the team back then. Particularly in regards to our international reputation and the status of the club. As a reminder, we had made the champions league a single time before Poch, we hadn't finished in the top 3 in my lifetime. If Poch just got a bit lucky, fine.

For what its worth, Poch would still be in a job if we stood still, we didn't stand still, we were moving backwards. The decision then is, do you trust the manager to turn it around and give them time (which would have been the norm before the invention of football in 1992) or do you replace him and get some new energy in. We chose the latter, and for now, it seems justified.

 

[Shadydan]

 

[Shanks]

Good luck to him if he gets the gig, potentially an out for both Alli and Eriksen too

 

[C0YS]

Icardi sure. Di Maria, ok I haven't been keeping super up to date with him, but he was a workhorse of a player for Real Madrid, and a quick look at PSG sources suggests it's the same there. I suspect the fact he felt isolated at utd probably has created a false impression of him. Get him on side he works hard. Neymar would be a better example.

 

[Shadydan]

Icardi sure. Di Maria, ok I haven't been keeping super up to date with him, but he was a workhorse of a player for Real Madrid, and a quick look at PSG sources suggests it's the same there. I suspect the fact he felt isolated at utd probably has created a false impression of him. Get him on side he works hard. Neymar would be a better example.

Why are you trying to analyse a joke?

 

[C0YS]

Why are you trying to analyse a joke?

COVID innit.

RIP sense of humour ?

 

[spursfan77]

So basically the last 18 months of his tenure with us. When the main lads were younger and less rich they did the pressing but not towards the end. Poch found this out and so has Mourinho (as seen in the Amazon doc where he was asking them to press but there was no sign of it on the pitch).

Also, didn’t realise it was a joke!

 

[Gareth88]

I think you are making it appear like it's a bigger deal than it is. I also took interest in Jol after he left and players too. You form a connection with someone it is natural you wish them well. There is no tension between that and supporting Spurs. I don't know why there is a paranoia about that. Thats a bit odd.

It's a good move for him, though a tough job. He has links with PSG which will help him. I wish him well, and am happy he's not going to a direct rival.

I love Martin Jol to this day

 

[Shadydan]

I think this bring closure for a lot of people now that Poch has gone to another team and seemingly best case scenario in that he's gone to a team abroad. For me personally I've always said that I would like him to go somewhere and get the winning feeling as he still has to mature as manager, he still needs to experience winning something albeit it's Ligue 1 he can get the monkey off his back - I think there's a potential return to Spurs on the cards in the near future because I feel that he has unfinished business at Spurs and a lot of goodwill in the bank with Levy and the fans, good luck to him.

 

[Phil-spur99]

The best outcome if he goes to PSG. At least he doesn’t improve a rival and I wouldn’t like to see him manage another PL team. Would also be good if he fancied a few of our players, Sissoko, Winks, Dele. Not that I want Dele to leave but could swell the coffers.

 

[Chirpystheman]

Jan came from a season where his own manager said he couldn't defend and Walker was out of the England squad. Those players both improved dramatically under Poch.

I don't think he underachieved, except in his final year. Injuries didn't help, but nor did his stubbornness in the transfermarket or his attempt to change the way we play. Overall he achieved much more than was expected and much quicker than was expected of him. As is often the case success brings greater expectation and that hurt him. Ultimately, 5 years is a crazy long time in management these days, stagnation is inevitable. But Poch's stock is very high based on the work he did here, and for good reason. The football world is very different now than what it was in the past, but looking just at league position only Bill Nicholson achieved a greater run in terms of league position.

I know some people don't want to hear this, because it doesn't stand well in terms of where fans think this club should be. But his 2nd position finish was the best our club achieved in 53 years. A position we have only matched 4 times before and only bettered twice. Only Bill Nicholson achieved more top 4 finishes as a manager than Poch, and Poch in 5 years. Now league table finishes are much less volatile these days. Similarly, in the modern game, Nicholson would have been sacked in 1966 and 1970. Burkinshaw in 1977, and probably in 1980.

Now we can deal with hypotheticals all we like. We will never know, but what we did achieve was vastly above what our expectations were when we got him, and vastly better than where you would expect us to finish given our wage bill. It's for this reason he is now manager of PSG.

None of this btw contradicts the idea that maybe he should have gone. You can believe someone did a good job and accept it was time to move on. But if we were to go back in time, and I were to say we would be in two title runs (though the second maybe wasn't quite as competitive), qualify to the champions league 4 seasons in a row and reach a champions league final and end up with Mourinho as our manager. You'd think I'd be joking. Tottenham are in a different planet from the team back then. Particularly in regards to our international reputation and the status of the club. As a reminder, we had made the champions league a single time before Poch, we hadn't finished in the top 3 in my lifetime. If Poch just got a bit lucky, fine.

For what its worth, Poch would still be in a job if we stood still, we didn't stand still, we were moving backwards. The decision then is, do you trust the manager to turn it around and give them time (which would have been the norm before the invention of football in 1992) or do you replace him and get some new energy in. We chose the latter, and for now, it seems justified.

I hope you get a 1st for your dissertation. Its not a case of what people not wanting to hear it, its just facts no one remembers the runners up. Success is measured by winning things. We had a better team than Leicester (they won the league we collapsed and finished 3rd) we had a better team than Chelsea (they won the league) we bottled countless semi finals under poch. He played Vorm in a semi who threw 2 in. The CL and the league cup final granted we weren't favs in so he can be forgiven. But in terms of tangible success, you might not want to read this next part, Ramos and Graham were more successful and if Jose wins something with us he will also be more successful.

He did a great job but let's not make out he took a league 1 squad to the prem. He took the 5th best team in the league to CL football. He didn't do want Ranieri did at Leicester for instance and take relegation fodder to winning the title. It is possible that he over achieved and under achieved throughout his tenure at the club. Just have to accept it.

 

[Thewobbler]

It would be good to see him back in football. I wish him the best.

 

[C0YS]

I hope you get a 1st for your dissertation. Its not a case of what people not wanting to hear it, its just facts no one remembers the runners up. Success is measured by winning things. We had a better team than Leicester (they won the league we collapsed and finished 3rd) we had a better team than Chelsea (they won the league) we bottled countless semi finals under poch. He played Vorm in a semi who threw 2 in. The CL and the league cup final granted we weren't favs in so he can be forgiven. But in terms of tangible success, you might not want to read this next part, Ramos and Graham were more successful and if Jose wins something with us he will also be more successful.

He did a great job but let's not make out he took a league 1 squad to the prem. He took the 5th best team in the league to CL football. He didn't do want Ranieri did at Leicester for instance and take relegation fodder to winning the title. It is possible that he over achieved and under achieved throughout his tenure at the club. Just have to accept it.

Mate, I'm not writing a dissertation, I'm writing a casual opinion on a football forum.

I remember the runners up, a lot of people do.

Success can be measured by winning things, but if Jose wins the league cup but we end up 10th I don't think he'd be in a job. Similarly, most people would not say that George Graham and Juande Ramos were our most successful managers in recent years. Yes we didn't win something, that is something the squad should feel bad about.

We had a better team then Leicester, so did half the league. You can talk about it as if we should have won, but we shouldn't have. We came from a 5th position and a 6th position, we weren't even expected to finish in the Champions League places that season, yet alone win it. On top of that, Leicester kept on winning, it was hardly like we threw that away. The finishing 3rd in a two horse race was inexcusable.

We were not a better team than Chelsea, not significantly anyway. That Conte team had a lot of very good players. Kante, the best player in the league, Eden Hazard on form, Diego Costa, on form, and they didn't have any European football to contend with. That was also largely already a premier league winning team, as they'd won it literally two season before with largely the same squad. They won the league with 93 points the 6th highest Premier league point total of all time. This wasn't an average team.

The Leicester season we started slowly, and that cost us, but we started as expected, not as unexpected. The second season we were better and with 86 points, well, that's a very good total (I think our highest ever) and maybe a few of the early draws might have made it close, but after Chelsea posting a 13 game winning streak, closing that gap was always a big ask. I think the assumption that was a weak Chelsea is a strange one tbh.

Winning a cup doesn't make you a better manager, and has little in the way of securing your job, managers know this btw. Winning a cup can happen to any team with the right run, league form tells you more about the ability of a squad. I would love to win something, and I believe under Jose we will. I also hope Jose is a billion times more successful than Poch, it's not really relevant to what I was saying. And this is what I mean, I'm not partisan one side or another I support the team.

I didn't say we were a league 1 team, we were a europa league team, that became a champions league team. Now it might not seem a big distance, but it's the first time we've been a champions league qualifying team in my life, so it was a massive step up in my experience of supporting tottenham, living abroad, it was also nice to have regular people know who the hell tottenham are, because before that we were about as well known as Lazio are to premier league fans. I don't think anyone has ever done what Ranieri did at any club.

I can understand this idea of overachieving and underachieving, I just don't agree with it. I think all the baselines of expectations he surpassed them. The one bitter thing is him not winning something here, and that was his failing. But I don't think he underachieved at all considering the tools he had in his disposal. I don't even think the squad he inherited was that good, and no one really thought it was at the time. A lot of fans who look at those years in a bitter way sort of apply where the club is now, to where it was then and assume that getting a to b is an instant process, as well as just forgetting what the mood was at the time, no one was saying wtf how did we not win the title against Chelsea. Or even Leicester for that matter, because no one saw it as possible.

You can say that Poch left us at the right time. But financially we were the 6th biggest club (not even close to top 5 btw) and in terms of transfers even lower than that. The only way he might have underachieved, apart from not winning things (which were expectations caused by overachieving) is if you think the squad was the best in the land, and probably for about a year it was, the problem is that year also happened to be a calendar one!

Just to give you a sense of what I mean. Like season review of 15/16.

Season Review 2015/16

Best Player - Harry Kane Most improved player - Dele Alli Player who needs to pull his socks up - Kyle Walker. Defending is great but in the final 3rd he is pretty shocking IMO. Didn't want to go for a squad player as they could all improve. Walker IMO is the place where we could get an...

www.spurscommunity.co.uk

Expectations of the 15/16 Season

Realistic hopes for next season

So our season is coming to a close and chances are we'll end up in the top 6 and runners up in the league cup. Results wise many would have been happy with that at the beginning of the season. But there is some disillusion among fans as our form has gone downhill at the end of the season when...

www.spurscommunity.co.uk

 

[nailsy]

It's inevitable that once he goes there they'll start to be linked with more of our players. Is there anyone other than Dele who might realistically go there?

 

[Tucker]

It's inevitable that once he goes there they'll start to be linked with more of our players. Is there anyone other than Dele who might realistically go there?

Yeah I was thinking about this. Can’t see Kane wanting to drop down to the French league, or Son. But I’d not be surprised if they came in for someone like Ndombele, maybe even Winks or Sissoko.

 

[Monkey boy]

It's inevitable that once he goes there they'll start to be linked with more of our players. Is there anyone other than Dele who might realistically go there?

none of our top players will want to drop down to the French league so I’m not concerned and I wouldn’t have thought Poch would want to go anywhere near Tanguy again after he saw first hand how unsuitable to his fitness regime he was. I’d also think Tanguy would think twice about joining in again with Poch’s training

 

[panoma]

Yeah I was thinking about this. Can’t see Kane wanting to drop down to the French league, or Son. But I’d not be surprised if they came in for someone like Ndombele, maybe even Winks or Sissoko.

I doubt PSG will be our new Sunderland and take our unwanted players. Alli maybe, but why would thet take Sissoko, Winks, Sanchez etch? PSG can attract almost anyone so why settle for those? I would love it as it would give us some funds, just struggle to see it happening.

 

[dontcallme]

none of our top players will want to drop down to the French league so I’m not concerned and I wouldn’t have thought Poch would want to go anywhere near Tanguy again after he saw first hand how unsuitable to his fitness regime he was. I’d also think Tanguy would think twice about joining in again with Poch’s training

I don’t think our players would see PSG as a drop down. Any other French team, yes.

 

[Japhet]

I don’t think our players would see PSG as a drop down. Any other French team, yes.

Even if they did, I'm sure a hatful of domestic medals and a huge salary would mitigate those feelings.