Defending corners - a question

[joey55]

I've recently read "Soccer coaching : The Pro Way" and in the past I've read the official FA coaching manual (the old 1994 one, but I doubt the set piece section hasn changed) and "Coaching Soccer Tactics". These are 3 of the most highly recomended coaching/tactics manuals available and have been developed with the help of numerous top coaches. Ultimately, they all confirm that the fundementals of set piece defendiong are incredibly basic. Each of them waffle on in detail (as each section of the book has to be long enough for them to publish) on minor things, but in reallity set piece defending (or coaching/tactics in general) actually gets less complicated the more advanced level of football you are playing.

The main thing all these manuals offer is different types of drills for coaches to use on the training ground, so teams are prepared for all situations. But these are all ultimately flawed as no matter what you do on the training ground, it can't account for the oppositions teams random approach to set piece systems. You can try randon delivery in training, but the players are never the same as the opposition players and match environment can never be reproduced. At the end of the day, once a player has reached premiership level, he should be very well versed in set peice organisation. But, a players natural ability to stay alert and concentrate is something that is virtually impossible to coach.

This is why a coach known for his set peice defending (ie Sam Allardayce), can move clubs (Bolton to Newcastle) and suddenly his new team can't defend set pieces. Sam's approach on the training ground will be just the same at Newcastle as at Bolton, but the key thing is that the players are different. In our case players like Chimbonda, Dawson and Gardner could play for 100 years and they'd still lose concentration at key moments. Kaboul is still young, so maybe his mistakes are down to a lack of experience and leadership alongside him. Even Leds have never been the most alert. The key is to bring in new players. Some people were scathing about Jol's coaching of our set pieces, but now Ramos has equalled him for goals conceded (from set pieces played into the box) this season and in one less game. It has little to do with either of them. We need leaderhip and oragnisation at the back and not necessarily just for on the pitch. A player like Naybet can be equally as useful on the training ground and take Ramos and Poyet aside and point things out to them.

 

[yanno]

Numbers support my case.
http://www.yappari.co.uk/archive/2006/09/13/lies-damned-lies-and-football-commentators/

Liverpool have conceaded from set pieces less goals than any other team in the league 2 years running. At the beginning it was a nightmare cause the players were used to man marking. Now it is almost impossible to head a ball in the Liverpool area, not to mention score from it, cause there is always a big fella challenging the attacker.
Liverpool zonal marking went under scrutiny because it was new in England (not exactly, but Sky pundits are anything but pundits) and it was not working.

Interesting link - thanks. If it's correct that Liverpool only conceded two goals from corners, and two from free kicks into the box in the entire season, the case for Zonal marking is clearly effing strong!!!!!

However, my initial point still stands. Implementing zonal marking midway through a season would be a major major challenge given that British players are simply not brought up to mark zonally at set pieces. Pre-season would be a better time to drill it into them. But Ramos is nothing if not brave, and perhaps he'll go for it.

 

[joey55]

Numbers support my case.
http://www.yappari.co.uk/archive/2006/09/13/lies-damned-lies-and-football-commentators/

Liverpool have conceaded from set pieces less goals than any other team in the league 2 years running. At the beginning it was a nightmare cause the players were used to man marking. Now it is almost impossible to head a ball in the Liverpool area, not to mention score from it, cause there is always a big fella challenging the attacker.
Liverpool zonal marking went under scrutiny because it was new in England (not exactly, but Sky pundits are anything but pundits) and it was not working.

Zonal systems in theory should be pretty full proof. If every player does his job and gets his spacing right, then it just comes down to mathmatics. If the spacing is correct the defender should be strong favourite to win the ball everytime. It is basically playing a % game. However, if just one player gets it wrong then everyone is screwed. Hence it is a system that needs good players.

 

[Legend10]

The problem with zonal systems is the delivery.

If the delivery is good enough you face the prospect of defenders competing from a standing jump against players running in and jumping. The runner becomes a heavy favourite with a good delivery.

 

[Stoof]

We need a leader. :-(

Someone to tell O'Hara: "no, son, you mark [X] - I'll mark him as he's a threat and you're smaller than my Nan". Not O'Hara's fault in any way shape or form - the leader on the pitch needs to get that info sorted. Andy Gray was right. Eek.

Whether this is due to an ever increasing language barrier - both between coaches and players, and between players themselves, I can only speculate - but what is sure is that we need to stop conceding goals in this demeaning and joke-like way.

6 goals we've let in against Villa this season: 5 from set pieces.

 

[Gilzeanking]

One suggestion made by someone that I found interesting and also connects our uselessness at set pieces both offensively and defensively is...

...that we simply don't have a top quality set piece taker(bar Bale) so theres no opportunity to train and prepare our team to defend against top level crosses .

 

[BoringOldFan]

Good post joey, but I must take issue with this:

no matter what you do on the training ground, it can't account for the oppositions teams random approach to set piece systems

I don't call conceding headers to Mellberg and Laursen a 'random approach' by Aston Villa. Laursen scored twice against us at The Lane. They are both big bastards who are good in the air. Therefore I would think that it was very likely that they will be on the end of set pieces.

If Agbonlahor took a corner that went to the far corner flag where Bouma bicycle-kicked it back to the edge of the area for Ashley Young to bullet head it towards the penalty spot where Stilian Petrov kneed it on to his own head and it flew into the top corner, THAT would be random.

But centre backs heading the ball from crosses? Nah. I think we can pretty much predict that kind of thing will happen.

 

[Legend10]

One suggestion made by someone that I found interesting and also connects our uselessness at set pieces both offensively and defensively is...

...that we simply don't have a top quality set piece taker(bar Bale) so theres no opportunity to train and prepare our team to defend against top level crosses .

I don't buy this Gilzean,

There was nothing special about those 2 deliveries today, they were decent but not special, they were just simply poorly defended.

 

[Juande_Ramos]

The problem with zonal systems is the delivery.

If the delivery is good enough you face the prospect of defenders competing from a standing jump against players running in and jumping. The runner becomes a heavy favourite with a good delivery.

The defender in zonal marking is supposed to attack the ball, not just jump from an stationary position. On the other hand, how many times you see in man to man marking a defender temporarely losing his man because he gets blocked or because his man suddenly changes direction?
With zonal marking the chances of a an attacker heading a ball in dangerous areas completely unchallenged are far less.

 

[Legend10]

The defender in zonal marking is supposed to attack the ball, not just jump from an stationary position. On the other hand, how many times you see in man to man marking a defender temporarely losing his man because he gets blocked or because his man suddenly changes direction?
With zonal marking the chances of a an attacker heading a ball in dangerous areas completely unchallenged are far less.

This is my point about the delivery being the problem, if you defend zonally and the delivery is good enough you run the risk of the defenders being caught somewhat underneath it and being run on.

 

[joey55]

Good post joey, but I must take issue with this:



I don't call conceding headers to Mellberg and Laursen a 'random approach' by Aston Villa. Laursen scored twice against us at The Lane. They are both big bastards who are good in the air. Therefore I would think that it was very likely that they will be on the end of set pieces.

If Agbonlahor took a corner that went to the far corner flag where Bouma bicycle-kicked it back to the edge of the area for Ashley Young to bullet head it towards the penalty spot where Stilian Petrov kneed it on to his own head and it flew into the top corner, THAT would be random.

But centre backs heading the ball from crosses? Nah. I think we can pretty much predict that kind of thing will happen.

True, but this all falls into the bit I wrote about reproducing match conditions. On the training gorund I bet you that we'd easily deal with these kind of situations. No coach (even Martin Jol or Ramos) would send out a team that isn't incredibly well drilled in dealing with those situations. But no coach can drill his players not to lose their mind in a big match environment. Hence a player like John Terry, with limited football ability can earn over £100,000 per week, because he is ultra reliable. Yet Anthony Garnder who is physically the perfect defender ends up on the bencha nd probably £20,000 per week.

 

[yanno]

True, but this all falls into the bit I wrote about reproducing match conditions. On the training gorund I bet you that we'd easily deal with these kind of situations. No coach (even Martin Jol or Ramos) would send out a team that isn't incredibly well drilled in dealing with those situations. But no coach can drill his players not to lose their mind in a big match environment. Hence a player like John Terry, with limited football ability can earn over £100,000 per week, because he is ultra reliable. Yet Anthony Garnder who is physically the perfect defender ends up on the bencha nd probably £20,000 per week.

In terms of defending set pieces, there are similarities with American football (essentially a set piece situation). If you're manmarking, (rather than zonal marking), it's all about match ups. Laursen against O'Hara was clearly a ludicrous match up, so ludicrous that Andy Gray spotted it before the corner came in.

Now in American football, as well as defensive coaches on the sideline, they also have a defensive captain on the field whose job it is to make sure the defence is matched up correctly against the offence they're facing. It was clear that poor Jamie O'Hara had been given the task of manmarking Laursen (one of Villa's two most dangerous aerial players), whilst JJ was marking Shaun Maloney (as Legend10 pointed out). This was wrong. And there should be a leader (a defensive captain on the field) to make sure this doesn't happen.

I was a CB, and often captain of my team (only at university level). But I would have been embarrassed and guilty as hell if I'd put a short player like O'Hara in the position of having to mark Laursen. As captain, and defensive leader, I would have felt it was my fault. This is about decision making on the field, and some of our players are consistently poor at stepping up and making good decisions in the heat of battle.

 

[General Levy]

thats constructive... robbo is the best keeper we've had in a long time.

Neil Sullivan?:shrug:

 

[LSUY]

As a defender I'd imagine you want your keeper to come and take everything out, ball and men. I wouldn't even mind him knocking me out into the middle of next week as long as it meant the ball was cleared.

As a goalkeeper I'd imagine you would want your defenders to mark the opposition's main targets and actually challenge them in the air instead of losing the player and just standing their watching as they score. :shrug:

Robbo isn't the only problem, the entire team and coaching staff is.

The match ups for corners are wrong (O'Hara should have never been marking Laursen), the tall players aren't dominating in the air like Terry or Laursen do, the goalkeeper isn't winning the close crosses and the entire team seems to switch off mentally when the corner is taken. All the opposition need to do is move around a little bit and they've lost their marker.

 

[eViL]

Christ guys, are you totally missing the fact that regardless of how good/bad the marking is at the moment, not ONE of our defenders is actually CHALLENGING to clear these set-pieces in the first place?

If our players were actually out there attemting to WIN the high balls instead of trying to have some bum-fun with their opposing number the ball wouldn't actually make it onto anyone's head/foot/arse to concede anyway!!

We need a BIG ball winner.

 

[ladi100]

As Liverpool often show at very important moments, Zonal marking is like anal sex. Whilst it can be done that way, its not always the right way to do it.

Standing jumpers will always be beaten to the ball by an unmarked run at near post (or any unmarked position). Personally, I think it's good to have a man nearer to the corner (like Berba) but I much prefer to have a shorter man at the 10 yard point in front of the corner. This usually means the corner has to be a bit deeper, usually with less pace, and thus less impactual (immediately).

But it also helps if your keeper is confident enough to come for corner balls too. This also puts more confidence in the defenders (and less panic in them).

 

[yanno]

Zonal marking is like anal sex. Whilst it can be done that way, its not always the right way to do it.

It's 1 January 2008, and already we have the winner of Surreal Comment of the Year!!!!

 

[stevenqoz]

It never ceases to amaze me how EPL sides can line up to defend corners without a player on each post. To me it is basic. I have coached 800 matches in my time and regardless of what else you choose to do to defend, this is the start. As it happens the second goal may have been cleared by Jenas if deployed near post, maybe not.
Not making excuses for our crap defending but I feel that FIFA will soon have to move on the foul play that occurs prior to corners. It is wild but occurs a split second to the ball being delivered so rarely incurs sanction because the ball is not in play.
I wrote FIFA last year and suggested that the referee be given the authority at corners to order offending defenders/attackers to go outside the area if they push / block / jostle opponents consistently before the kick is taken. This would require a rule change / adjustment but might calm things down.

 

[joey55]

It never ceases to amaze me how EPL sides can line up to defend corners without a player on each post. To me it is basic. I have coached 800 matches in my time and regardless of what else you choose to do to defend, this is the start. As it happens the second goal may have been cleared by Jenas if deployed near post, maybe not.
Not making excuses for our crap defending but I feel that FIFA will soon have to move on the foul play that occurs prior to corners. It is wild but occurs a split second to the ball being delivered so rarely incurs sanction because the ball is not in play.
I wrote FIFA last year and suggested that the referee be given the authority at corners to order offending defenders/attackers to go outside the area if they push / block / jostle opponents consistently before the kick is taken. This would require a rule change / adjustment but might calm things down.

Jol got heavily criticised for not having a man on the near post (by Legend I believe) and now we've conceded 5 from corners in the last few weeks and not had a man on the near post for any of them. At the end of the day, I think most coach's will go with what makes the keeper feel most comfortable and both Cerny and Robbo seem to prefer no man at the near post, which would perhaps suggest it is the influence of Segers (even though he has left). It would be interesting to see set pieces from his playing days, to see if he had a man on the post or not. The Hudd would be the ideal option. I don't understand why he is often given the job of marking the spare man. Surely that is the one job where initial acceleration and leap are absolutely vital. He is tall, but can't really jump and his mobility over short distances is terrible. Stick him on the near post, where he can just get in the way of the ball.

 

[Dannyspur]

thats constructive... robbo is the best keeper we've had in a long time.

robbo is the only keeper we have had in a long time!