Do we need a youth academy?

[Bill_Oddie]

Just to return to the financial point, let's say we've got 20 academy players that we've spent an average of 1m on. Given the quality of our facilities and coaching it is absolutely feasible that a quarter fail/get injured/move on for free, a half move on for around the money we've invested in them, and a quarter move on for vastly more, perhaps some of them for 5m plus. That would give the academy a profit somewhere in the region of 15m. Which pays for a very, very good player. Not to mention the five 5m+ worth players we've been able to cultivate.

So, in answer to the original question: you do the math.

 

[eddiebailey]

I think a problem in recent years has been that we have failed to capitalise on the value of players coming through our Academy, not just in terms of developing them as first team players, but in terms of realising sell-on value. (Though the two are of course related.) I recall that in the past we got good money for Luke Young and Steven Clemence, and more recently I think we did okay on Steven Kelly and maybe Dean Marney. But Johnnie Jackson, Mark Yeates, Charlie Lee, Phil Ifil and Lee Barnard all went for peanuts or on a free. The same could be said of Emil Hallfredsson, Reto Ziegler and Mournir El Hamdouai, who were not Academy products, but were part of our "One for the future' strategy. Since leaving us all these players have quickly developed to the point where they could command a decent fee. In Emil's case it happened almost overnight! We need to put more thought into how we develop our youngsters not just as players, but as commercial assets. If we do that, then with the talent coming through, the Academy will most certainly pay its way. And besides I love it went a home grown player break into the first team.

 

[Rocksuperstar]

Totally true. We're forced to poach because we can't get our hands on them earlier. We've a tiny catchment area to choose from. In Portugal, for example, Lisbon has the whole country to pick from. They get them at 11 or 12 and bring them through playing alongside youngsters of equal ability. Here they play at lower league youth academies learning poor techinique and how to play in the hurly-burly down there and by the time we get them they're mostly already ruined.

And then we're stymied by the uncompetitive nature of reserve team footy. In Spain they play in the second division with the B-teams, remaining with the club and benefitting from the club's coaching set-up.

No wonder English player are often so much poorer than their foreign counter-parts, despite the vast numbers of kids which play the game in this country.

And this is what Platini and Blatter should be addressing. They need to impose one rule for all leagues. Either you can or you cannot have B-Teams playing in the lower divisions. Either you can or cannot poach players from outside your catchement area etc etc. Either that or they should stick their noses out and accept that different rules in different nations make for different outcomes and different solutions.

Ah, but the situation in both countries is vastly different - in this country we have way, WAY more professional teams than in Portugal and we have far, far more money to throw around.

I said earlier in the thread, i would like to see this ever-widening gulf between the reserves (or the over-aged under 18's) and the first team addressed but i think the only way that will happen is if three or four investors/owners start putting more cash towards promoting and publicising their reserves games, maybe directing them more towards the local community and having massive amounts of concessions for kids, youth groups, the elderly, school groups, etc.

Reserves are just too uncompetitive to give any real sign of how a player will fair in the premiership - it's at best Dr Martins league kind of passion - knowing that this is the fate of most academy kids, makes you wonder how they keep focussed on developing their game and not this yawning chasm of time and space (givin you what you like, and you like bass) that awaits once you hit 19...

 

[ultimateloner]

Football in the UK became short-term business with the huge investments and venture funds.

However it should be a long term business and like every other well-run corporate, you need strong fundamentals including culture and a youth development scheme.

Just because we aren't producing Wayne Rooneys doesn't mean we shoudl write off the Youth Academy. Ideally it should 'run itself' by selling and buying players from all-over, and occasinoally feeding 1 or 2 Prem/International class players to the 1st team.

 

[truespur]

its all well having players like rose, parrett and pekhart but i want to see how we develop people like townsend, smith, mason and obika who are very good players

 

[hashmander]

UEFA proposals

2006-2007 season
Squad size for European competitions must be limited to 25. Of the 25 players, two players, aged between 15 and 21, must have been developed in a club's academy, while two others from the 15 to 21 age group can be purchased from a club in a league of the same national association.

2007-2008 season
The number of home-grown players to rise to six: three from each 15 to 21 category.

2008-2009 season
The number of home-grown players to rise to eight: four from each category.
---------------------


I'm convinced this is one reason why we've been aggressively buying young talent within our "national association" - ie the English leagues.


Gunter, Rose, Parrett, Bostock (if it happens) - would all count as homegrown.

The likes of Bale, Lennon & Huddlestone would count as purchased from the "same national association".

They would complement King & O'Hara as players who did come through our Academy.

Clubs like l'arse - with their emphasis on non-British youngsters - will hopefully be screwed.

the team with a UEFA homegrown problem is actually chelsea. they couldn't field 25 players last year because they only had i think 4 homegrown players so they lost 2 squad places. foreign players can be homegrown and that's why arsenal doesn't have a homegrown problem (even when it goes up to 8 this year). having a look at their squad here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenal_F.C.#Current_squad
fabregas, clichy, senderos, djourou, bendtner, hoyte, walcott (the only association trained player), gibbs, randall are all considered homegrown. and i think diaby as well because he's played in 3 european campaigns with them before turning 22.

and you're misunderstanding the 2+2 (3+3 and now 4+4). you don't need 2 (3 or 4) from each group. priority is placed on the club trained group. for example, you need 8 homegrown players this upcoming season and at least 4 HAVE to come from your team (club-trained), but 4 don't have to come from the association. you only need the association players if you have a club-trained shortfall and need the association guys to get you up to 8. if you have all 8 (or more) as club-trained and none from the association then it's fine, but you can't have 8 from the association and none club-trained.

 

[yanno]

the team with a UEFA homegrown problem is actually chelsea. they couldn't field 25 players last year because they only had i think 4 homegrown players so they lost 2 squad places. foreign players can be homegrown and that's why arsenal doesn't have a homegrown problem (even when it goes up to 8 this year). having a look at their squad here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenal_F.C.#Current_squad
fabregas, clichy, senderos, djourou, bendtner, hoyte, walcott (the only association trained player), gibbs, randall are all considered homegrown. and i think diaby as well because he's played in 3 european campaigns with them before turning 22.

and you're misunderstanding the 2+2 (3+3 and now 4+4). you don't need 2 (3 or 4) from each group. priority is placed on the club trained group. for example, you need 8 homegrown players this upcoming season and at least 4 HAVE to come from your team (club-trained), but 4 don't have to come from the association. you only need the association players if you have a club-trained shortfall and need the association guys to get you up to 8. if you have all 8 (or more) as club-trained and none from the association then it's fine, but you can't have 8 from the association and none club-trained.

Firstly, this all may change as the likes of Blatter and Platini try to get more English players in English club squads etc. Fwiw I think you're probably misunderstanding these regulations in that the allocation (whether it amounts to 4 or 6 or 8 players in the European squad of 25), must include both Academy players and national association players. So Fabregas and Clichy may count as Academy players but certainly don't count as Association players. But the regulations as drafted are difficult to interpret clearly. I doubt an EPL club could sign a 20-year-old from overseas and claim they count as an Academy player.

The crucial point is that young English talent will become ever more valuable for EPL clubs, just as young Spanish talent will for La Liga clubs. So, I think our aggressive policy of signing talented England youth internationals is a wise one.

 

[sloth]

Ah, but the situation in both countries is vastly different - in this country we have way, WAY more professional teams than in Portugal and we have far, far more money to throw around.

I said earlier in the thread, I would like to see this ever-widening gulf between the reserves (or the over-aged under 18's) and the first team addressed but i think the only way that will happen is if three or four investors/owners start putting more cash towards promoting and publicising their reserves games, maybe directing them more towards the local community and having massive amounts of concessions for kids, youth groups, the elderly, school groups, etc.

Reserves are just too uncompetitive to give any real sign of how a player will fair in the premiership - it's at best Dr Martins league kind of passion - knowing that this is the fate of most academy kids, makes you wonder how they keep focussed on developing their game and not this yawning chasm of time and space (givin you what you like, and you like bass) that awaits once you hit 19...

Yeah, I saw that when you wrote it the other day, I completely agree. Let's get a decent reserve/Academy League going with a bit of money and TV and then see the players develop.

And you're also right about the number of pro clubs in this country. I for one think grass-roots football needs protecting it's just that if it is there's no use pretending it doesn't harm us at the elite level. We can't have our cake and eat it and it frustrates me when I hear all these commentators going on about limiting foreign players, when that's such a superficial reading of the situation.

 

[hashmander]

Firstly, this all may change as the likes of Blatter and Platini try to get more English players in English club squads etc. Fwiw I think you're probably misunderstanding these regulations in that the allocation (whether it amounts to 4 or 6 or 8 players in the European squad of 25), must include both Academy players and national association players. So Fabregas and Clichy may count as Academy players but certainly don't count as Association players. But the regulations as drafted are difficult to interpret clearly. I doubt an EPL club could sign a 20-year-old from overseas and claim they count as an Academy player.

The crucial point is that young English talent will become ever more valuable for EPL clubs, just as young Spanish talent will for La Liga clubs. So, I think our aggressive policy of signing talented England youth internationals is a wise one.

priority is placed on club-trained over association trained when making these squad lists. association trained players can be used to make up the shortfall in club-trained players above the min required. it is why arsenal who only have one association trained player (walcott) isn't having any trouble with the homegrown rule. and obviously a 20 year old can't ever get to homegrown status because how do you serve a club for 3 seasons in between the ages of 15 and 21 if you just came in at 20.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaking/index.aspx?c=ireland&jp=cwgbsnideyey

From the start of the new season, each side playing in European competitions must have at least four members of their 25-man squad who have been registered with them over three seasons between the ages of 15 and 21 – such as teenager Cesc Fabregas at Arsenal – or at another club within the same country.

The rule is set to be implemented gradually, and is scheduled to be increased up to eight by 2008.

it's an "or" situation, not "and". you can have all club-trained players (why would UEFA try to prevent you from training all your players at your own club) if you so chose. you don't need to sign young players from other clubs in your domestic association. they allow you to do so of course, but not at the expense of club-trained players if you don't have a shortfall.

8 club-trained players and 0 association-trained player satisfies the rule.

7 club-trained players and 1 association-trained player satisfies the rule.

5 club-trained players and 3 association-trained player satisfies the rule.

and obviously 4 and 4 satisfies the rule.

1 club-trained players and 7 association-trained player doesn't satisfy the rule.

0 club-trained players and 8 association-trained player doesn't satisfy the rule.

by being a part of your own domestic association, your club-trained players are association-trained players as well. if someone like bendtner moved from arsenal to chelsea before he turns 22 he would in fact be considered an association trained player for chelsea.

 

[remember91]

Does anyone know how much the youth academy costs? I'd imagine it would be a pittance compared to the cost of purchasing players from other clubs. At Glasgow Rangers, the silver lining of huttons sale, was that the money had completely payed off the cost of constructing their youth scheme. How much do you think a club will pay to get just 1 player like King, Gerrard or Terry every 10 years, probably a lot more than the cost of maintaining a youth academy.

 

[yanno]

Hashmander - I found this on the UEFA site which confirms your interpretation:

From the 2006/07 season, the 'A' list that teams submit for UEFA club competitions which is limited to 25 players will include at least two places on this list for players trained by the club's own football academy and two further places for players trained either by the club's academy or by other clubs from within the same association. Further changes are planned for future seasons, while UEFA is also recommending that its member associations introduce similar measures at domestic level.
http://www.uefa.com/uefa/keytopics/kind=65536/index.html

So, presumably after three seasons with us, Pekhart would count as an Academy player. Whilst Gunter already counts as a player from within the same association - even though he's Welsh and only been with us for six months.

The bottom line though is still that Platini and Blatter do not want l'arse to be able to field just a solitary English player (Walcott) in their matchday squad because they're convinced that this is bad for football. They're desperate to stop young players being poached from Academies as 16-17 year-olds and moving abroad: the Fabregas case. And I'm sure they'll continue attempting to devise ways to prevent this - even if EU laws on freedom of movement will make drafting such a regulation very difficult.

 

[hashmander]

So, presumably after three seasons with us, Pekhart would count as an Academy player. Whilst Gunter already counts as a player from within the same association - even though he's Welsh and only been with us for six months.

yeah. and walcott will move from association trained to club-trained after this upcoming season i think.

blatter is still persisting, but platini knows that he can't run afoul of EU employment law and has backed off that 6/5 rule. the only kind of 6/5 rule they can employ is one that requires 6 players be homegrown, using a similar definition of homegrown that UEFA uses for european competition. the UEFA homegrown rule doesn't discriminate against EU citizens. such a rule would suffice anyway because most clubs aren't like arsenal and have a stable of club-trained players. the vast majority of clubs would come up short on the club-trained requirement and have to make up the shortfall with association trained players.

blatter is just trying to act like he's doing something. do you know how silly such a rule would end up being after all the concessions. you know they would have to exempt wales, northern ireland and scotland for starters and then some might even want to include ireland for history purposes. then it starts looking like a joke because players who wouldn't even being playing for the english national team would be treated favorably even though they want to beat england more than spain do. lawyers would be chomping at the bit to have a go at it in european court.