Financial Fair Play (general thread)

[Marty]

I don't understand why there are charges being leveled against clubs and punishment dished out when City are still on the table. Any punishment they will be handed won't affect this season, or any of the seasons in which the offenses occurred, but Everton and Forest are expected to swallow this and potentially lose millions when relegated, while City continue to operate as if nothing is going on. And now that they know that they can overwhelm the system and that no punishment is coming their way until these cases are ALL investigated, they can continue to pile on knowing that it just buys them more time.

It's a joke, it really is. If I was responsible for a club who were under the microscope right now, surely the lawyers have a case to demand fair treatment compared to other teams and a stay of several years between offense committed and punishment being meted out, to give them a chance to put in place the necessary measures to limit the impact.

City are fucking cheats to a degree that has broken the process, that should warrant an even stronger, immediate response, not leave them alone until every minute, complicated detail has been poured over, appealed, poured over again, disputed and fought in court...

In the long run I suspect that the City brass are hoping that the punishment will be retrospective, that losing titles that they've already celebrated and benefited from financially - no impact at all. Even if they are told they need to pay back the winnings difference from first place to wherever they ended up, that's not even going to dent them.

In an ideal world, yes of course City should be dealt with immediately.

But the reason Everton and now Forest can be charged and punished quickly is because their finances have gone over the limit in very obvious ways. The clubs are only arguing a) how much the punishment should be, and b) technical matters. Like Forest are now not arguing that they went over FFP limits, but that the only reason they did so was because it was more profitable to sell Johnson to us late in the window than selling him to Brentford earlier would've been.

They are also thus arguing that having June 30th as a cutoff date is nonsensical because of the way the transfer window works, and that is an argument I sort of agree with, but that doesn't change the fact that they know they were over the FFP limits as the rules currently are.

But City's books and FFP filings don't show anything wrong. The whole City case is about cheating and obfuscation in order to make the books look correct and within the limits. We can all agree that it looks like they have cooked the books from an outside point of view, but for an investigation to actually prove that takes a long time. And if they rush it in any way, you can bet anything City will take them to CAS and get any ban or deduction overturned on procedural grounds.

For City to be punished and, crucially, for that punishment to stick, the job has to be done extremely thoroughly. And we can all be annoyed that it is taking so long, but I'd rather they took their time and got it right than rushed it and fucked it.

 

[chas vs dave]

Premier League PSR tracker: Every club's FFP status

Nottingham Forest are the latest side to have been docked points after a PSR breach, but who else is at risk? 😬

www.givemesport.com

This makes interesting reading. If true, there are a lot of clubs sailing close to the wind.

 

[SirHarryHotspur]

Premier League PSR tracker: Every club's FFP status

Nottingham Forest are the latest side to have been docked points after a PSR breach, but who else is at risk? 😬

www.givemesport.com

This makes interesting reading. If true, there are a lot of clubs sailing close to the wind.

Should be updated soon , Spurs financial accounts up to 2023 have to be published by 31st March expect other clubs will be similar.
If any new clubs are charged with a breach of PSR, their cases will drag on just like Everton's according the the Commission report on the Everton case there were 28,000 documents involved , just think how many will be involved in the Man City case.

 

[GMI]

Premier League PSR tracker: Every club's FFP status

Nottingham Forest are the latest side to have been docked points after a PSR breach, but who else is at risk? 😬

www.givemesport.com

This makes interesting reading. If true, there are a lot of clubs sailing close to the wind.

We’re the only club in profit

 

[bubble07]

Premier League PSR tracker: Every club's FFP status

Nottingham Forest are the latest side to have been docked points after a PSR breach, but who else is at risk? 😬

www.givemesport.com

This makes interesting reading. If true, there are a lot of clubs sailing close to the wind.

I know we all know but still nice to read

If Chelsea do not sell a player of significance by June 30th 2024 they will breach PSR, and they are already under investigation by the Premier League over FFP breaches during the Roman Abramovich era.

 

[chas vs dave]

We’re the only club in profit

Sustainability champions, you'll never sing that

 

[Westmorlandspur]

Story today that Chelsea might not enter the Conference if they win the League Cup because they will be over uefa ffp rules. I’d like to see them try. If you qualify, you enter. If not they will suspend them from Europe for a couple of seasons
Hope they don’t have the decision to make after Sunday.

 

[Westmorlandspur]

Premier League PSR tracker: Every club's FFP status

Nottingham Forest are the latest side to have been docked points after a PSR breach, but who else is at risk? 😬

www.givemesport.com

This makes interesting reading. If true, there are a lot of clubs sailing close to the wind.

Cannot see how this is right. Covers the covid period and we lost in the region of 200m because of no supporters in grounds.
I think if we had to guess who might fall foul of this rule, we would probably all have said. Everton and forest . Since Boehly arrived at Chelsea they must be right in there.
Swiss Ramble was usually a good source for this sort of stuff but he is behind a pay wall now.

 

[SirHarryHotspur]

Not sure how that PL tracker article works but just using Spurs published financial accounts you get the following
2022 loss £50.1 million
2021 loss £83.8 m
2020 loss £63.9 m
2019 Profit £68.6 m

 

[razor1981]

Not sure how that PL tracker article works but just using Spurs published financial accounts you get the following
2022 loss £50.1 million
2021 loss £83.8 m
2020 loss £63.9 m
2019 Profit £68.6 m

There are allowable deductions for the Profit & Loss calculation (youth development costs, women's football, infrastructure spending), so the profit/loss in the published accounts won't be the same as the figure that goes into the P&L calc.

For example, our allowable deductions for 2022 were £86million (mostly depreciation on the stadium) - turning our pre-tax loss from the accounts into a tidy Profit for the P&L calculation.

 

[chas vs dave]

Not sure how that PL tracker article works but just using Spurs published financial accounts you get the following
2022 loss £50.1 million
2021 loss £83.8 m
2020 loss £63.9 m
2019 Profit £68.6 m

Our losses are inclusive of infrastructure writedowns. Our operating profit was around 100m in 2022.

Infrastructure is also excluded from this.

 

[GMI]

Premier League clubs set to back Uefa-style framework of financial rules

Premier League clubs will meet on Thursday to discuss ditching existing profit and sustainability regulations and adopting a Uefa-style framework of financial rules

www.theguardian.com

 

[aliyid]

Also quite a good overview of the City charges hidden in that article showing that out of the 115 charges the vast majority are just for failing to provide information
LINK - https://www.givemesport.com/football-soccer-man-city-ffp-charges-list/

Only 7 of the 115 charges are for breaching PSR (which is bad enough on its own)

 

[SirHarryHotspur]

Also quite a good overview of the City charges hidden in that article showing that out of the 115 charges the vast majority are just for failing to provide information
LINK - https://www.givemesport.com/football-soccer-man-city-ffp-charges-list/

Only 7 of the 115 charges are for breaching PSR (which is bad enough on its own)

View attachment 138254

You only have to read through the Everton appeals decision to see that lack of cooperation and giving misleading information to the PL is clearly unacceptable in the eyes of the Commission , same should apply to City .

 

[superted4]

You only have to read through the Everton appeals decision to see that lack of cooperation and giving misleading information to the PL is clearly unacceptable in the eyes of the Commission , same should apply to City .

Was just about to post the same thing. Wasnt it the appeal that said Everton had cooperated and that the points deduction for apparently not cooperating had been unjust and therefore reversed.

So if anything City should have a hefty points penalty just from been sneaky cnuts

 

[aliyid]

You only have to read through the Everton appeals decision to see that lack of cooperation and giving misleading information to the PL is clearly unacceptable in the eyes of the Commission , same should apply to City .

It should be unacceptable as if they let if fly then everybody would just play silly buggers and submit false information but the confusing side comes where this was one of the two areas where Everton were successful in their appeal...

Appeal - https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...deduction-appeal-premier-league-b2502725.html

Two of Everton’s points were upheld on appeal. The board ruled the independent commission had been wrong to say Everton were “less than frank” in reporting their position about loans used to pay for their new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock; in short, it was ruled they were not dishonest. They nevertheless said Everton were “simply wrong” in their representation, and the club admitted submitting “objectively misleading” information to the Premier League

So they submitted misleading information in an attempt to reduce their losses but the commission were wrong to say they had intentionally reported wrong figures as it could have been an innocent mistake.

This is a terrible decision in my eyes as you're basically saying "they're not liars they're just incompetent". It gives too much of a free pass allowing people to submit false figures

 

[SirHarryHotspur]

Was just about to post the same thing. Wasnt it the appeal that said Everton had cooperated and that the points deduction for apparently not cooperating had been unjust and therefore reversed.

So if anything City should have a hefty points penalty just from been sneaky cnuts

In the original decision the commission said Everton "were less than frank about stadium costs" as shown in post above the appeals commissission said it was wrong to say that.

Think the paragraph on cooperation with the PL is the bit that could count against City.

A club cannot plead cooperation at that level as a mitigating circumstance. Only where the level of cooperation is exceptional (i.e. above the level reasonably expected) would it be a mitigating circumstance. Where a club’s cooperation falls below that level, then that may be an aggravating circumstance.

 

[carmeldevil]

Premier League clubs set to back Uefa-style framework of financial rules

Premier League clubs will meet on Thursday to discuss ditching existing profit and sustainability regulations and adopting a Uefa-style framework of financial rules

www.theguardian.com

so pros and cons?

 

[SirHarryHotspur]

It should be unacceptable as if they let if fly then everybody would just play silly buggers and submit false information but the confusing side comes where this was one of the two areas where Everton were successful in their appeal...


So they submitted misleading information in an attempt to reduce their losses but the commission were wrong to say they had intentionally reported wrong figures as it could have been an innocent mistake.

This is a terrible decision in my eyes as you're basically saying "they're not liars they're just incompetent". It gives too much of a free pass allowing people to submit false figures

Good observation but compared to other points deductions and appeals e.g Sheff Wed think six points is probably right , a good starting point for other contravention of the rules.

 

[SirHarryHotspur]

so pros and cons?

Would stop clubs like Villa & Everton paying ridiculous wage/revenue ratios.
As with most things the wealthy clubs have an advantage over the Luton's of the world, depends on your revenue.
Could go back to pre 60's with the maximum wage which meant every club had a chance of competing as they could hold on to their best players.