Football is more than just a business

[danielneeds]

We lost to Norwich and QPR late in the season which you think is entirely the Managers fault.

Arsenal, who pipped us by one point, lost to QPR and Wigan.


It's not really two schools is it. Mixing younger talent with old heads is common sense and something Man Utd did so well in the nineties.

If Arsene Wenger has been basing his acquisitions on analytical reports it would explain why his squad has been out of balance for about 10 years.

They are useful for highlighting information that the eye can't see but they are insignificant against the power of the force...I mean human intuition.

I could tell you Soldado would struggle in the Premier League through common sense. He's not powerful enough.

We did benefit from some of the Comolli purchases but it didn't help us build a balanced squad. Only a manager can do that.

Human intuition has also made thousands of bad transfers over the years.

Robbie Keane, like Soldado, had no power or real pace, yet he scored 100 goals in the PL. So I don't think you can boil down all of Soldado's problems to that.

 

[mkkid]

Property in Manchester isn't that expensive ,it's a vanity project.No one makes money from football.City can't sell there ground out now,even with buy one get one free.
There going to get bored eventually,city will never be as big as Madrid,barca or utd.

 

[NEVILLEB]

Human intuition has also made thousands of bad transfers over the years.

Robbie Keane, like Soldado, had no power or real pace, yet he scored 100 goals in the PL. So I don't think you can boil down all of Soldado's problems to that.

Robbie Keane held the ball up well, created chances and could go past players.

 

[danielneeds]

Robbie Keane held the ball up well, created chances and could go past players.

He really didn't do the first - really shining with Mido and Berba who could. He was creative but then Soldado has shown that he can be too. He did have more tricks than Bobby, but it wasn't really the strongest part of his game, it was more movement and anticipation.

 

[dagraham]

He really didn't do the first - really shining with Mido and Berba who could. He was creative but then Soldado has shown that he can be too. He did have more tricks than Bobby, but it wasn't really the strongest part of his game, it was more movement and anticipation.

Keane created goals for himself though. Soldado relies 100% on service.

Back on topic, I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. A committee could get you the best players on paper, but it's the manager who creates the team and the team is ultimately far more important.

 

[ultimateloner]

Stats first feelings later and protect yourself by getting a good price. Don't know how the opposite (as seems implied by the OP) can be true. If you can't measure it isn't there.

 

[allatsea]

It not a business for Abramovich. or Sheikh mansour!

And that is why we have no chance of ever winning the Premier League. Like 99% of clubs we try to run ourselves in a sensibłe financial way. Those two clubs just do what they want without regard to the financial implications.

 

[guiltyparty]

Meanie!

I thought the "for you" end of your post was meaner

 

[Turbo]

Correction: Football used to be more than just a business. It is now one of the biggest businesses in the world and unfortunately will never be anything other than a business again.

I disagreed with that and wanted to explain why.

Football at professional level is just about business, that part I agree. At other levels though it is still a sport enjoyed by kids and adults alike. There are mates getting together every night of the week somewhere for a kick about, for fun, social enjoyment and for fitness. There are dad's taking their kids down the park with a ball all over the place. Grass roots football is still happening all over the country. Unfortunately that is all in decline. I stopped going to WHL a while ago, used to be a member making on average about fifteen games a season, maybe more. I stopped and only go to the odd preseason or corporate invitation. The top level is a business, it hasn't lessened my want for Spurs to do well though or my want for them to do well. I understand though that this level is not dependant on whether the team can nurture a local talent or pick up a player from the local non-league team and push them on. The EPL has sucked all that part of the enjoyment out of the game. How long ago was the FA cup diluted and tainted with teams fielding weakened teams so the Premiership matches or bigger financial games had the best players ready and not injured. People still bleat on about a cup upset, but those are not as much upsets anymore and the so called bigger club do not see it so much as a loss to go out in an early round of the league or FA cup. The rewards are finishing higher in the EPL and then the Champions League.

We can vote with our cash and go support the local grass roots side. Most struggle to make ends meet and would have another twenty gate receipts each week. I follow my local Ryman South club, even involved within the club at numerous levels. I coach a youth side and struggle to make ends meet for the team. Seeing the few that turn up on a Saturday to watch the first team, and whenever I'm with my squad training or playing, the business side never comes into it. That is still part of the sport we love, and it is a sport. Only the top end, though heavily balanced, is just about business. Those clubs couldn't give too hoots about fans, only that they can appease the masses to keep following and part with their cash.

There are still massive areas that this sport is not a business though, just go down to your local pitches on a Sunday morning, or the local fives league mid week, you will see people still enjoying the game.

 

[SteveH]

And that is why we have no chance of ever winning the Premier League. Like 99% of clubs we try to run ourselves in a sensibłe financial way. Those two clubs just do what they want without regard to the financial implications.

Probably right, but there is always room for 'a plucky outsider'. I think a well run club can give the mega clubs a run for their money.

Dortmund and Atletico Madrid give me hope

 

[yido_number1]

I disagreed with that and wanted to explain why.

Football at professional level is just about business, that part I agree. At other levels though it is still a sport enjoyed by kids and adults alike. There are mates getting together every night of the week somewhere for a kick about, for fun, social enjoyment and for fitness. There are dad's taking their kids down the park with a ball all over the place. Grass roots football is still happening all over the country. Unfortunately that is all in decline. I stopped going to WHL a while ago, used to be a member making on average about fifteen games a season, maybe more. I stopped and only go to the odd preseason or corporate invitation. The top level is a business, it hasn't lessened my want for Spurs to do well though or my want for them to do well. I understand though that this level is not dependant on whether the team can nurture a local talent or pick up a player from the local non-league team and push them on. The EPL has sucked all that part of the enjoyment out of the game. How long ago was the FA cup diluted and tainted with teams fielding weakened teams so the Premiership matches or bigger financial games had the best players ready and not injured. People still bleat on about a cup upset, but those are not as much upsets anymore and the so called bigger club do not see it so much as a loss to go out in an early round of the league or FA cup. The rewards are finishing higher in the EPL and then the Champions League.

We can vote with our cash and go support the local grass roots side. Most struggle to make ends meet and would have another twenty gate receipts each week. I follow my local Ryman South club, even involved within the club at numerous levels. I coach a youth side and struggle to make ends meet for the team. Seeing the few that turn up on a Saturday to watch the first team, and whenever I'm with my squad training or playing, the business side never comes into it. That is still part of the sport we love, and it is a sport. Only the top end, though heavily balanced, is just about business. Those clubs couldn't give too hoots about fans, only that they can appease the masses to keep following and part with their cash.

There are still massive areas that this sport is not a business though, just go down to your local pitches on a Sunday morning, or the local fives league mid week, you will see people still enjoying the game.

Fair point but we are in spurs chat and football relates to Spurs and the league we are in. You are right at the lower levels its not just about money but as the passion goes up in the lower league the quality goes down. The point I was making was about the leagues spurs play in and that is business. The biggest best business generally wins by spending the most money and hiring the most mercenaries that can win.

You are talking about a completely different thing when you look at ryman but even in those lower leagues you get a team like crawley and AFC where they get a cash injection and rise up the leagues.

Fair play for disagreeing and writing a repsonse

 

[Turbo]

Fair point but we are in spurs chat and football relates to Spurs and the league we are in. You are right at the lower levels its not just about money but as the passion goes up in the lower league the quality goes down. The point I was making was about the leagues spurs play in and that is business. The biggest best business generally wins by spending the most money and hiring the most mercenaries that can win.

You are talking about a completely different thing when you look at ryman but even in those lower leagues you get a team like crawley and AFC where they get a cash injection and rise up the leagues.

Fair play for disagreeing and writing a repsonse

I would fully agree with the following though

Correction: Spurs used to be more than just a business. It is now one of the biggest businesses in the world and unfortunately will never be anything other than a business again.

Maybe not one of the biggest businesses in the world though, just the footballing world.

 

[dontcallme]

I think the OP has a point and is a good discussion point.

When Levy first took over he fired the unpopular Graham for the very popular Hoddle. But we continued as we were. Mid-table club occasionally looking at a relegation battle.

So after some thought and 3 quarters of a season with a caretaker manager he brought in a DOF and head coach. We didn't spend hardly any money to become the 5th best team in the country.

Part of this was the head coach and DOF being in-sync with each other. Arnesen used to talk about characters all the time and brought in players like Naybet. Jol wanted Davids and on his departure said he'd wanted Distin and a couple of other experienced heads. Comolli bought a lot of young players with technical ability.

Redknapp saw the rot and brought in bigger characters then AVB, without a DOF, got rid of them.

So I don't think the DOF itself is the problem. Arnesen wanted characters, it appears Comolli didn't. Jol and Redknapp wanted characters, it appears AVB didn't.

It's really a case of getting people in with good judgment, regardless of job role.

 

[yido_number1]

I think the OP has a point and is a good discussion point.

When Levy first took over he fired the unpopular Graham for the very popular Hoddle. But we continued as we were. Mid-table club occasionally looking at a relegation battle.

So after some thought and 3 quarters of a season with a caretaker manager he brought in a DOF and head coach. We didn't spend hardly any money to become the 5th best team in the country.

Part of this was the head coach and DOF being in-sync with each other. Arnesen used to talk about characters all the time and brought in players like Naybet. Jol wanted Davids and on his departure said he'd wanted Distin and a couple of other experienced heads. Comolli bought a lot of young players with technical ability.

Redknapp saw the rot and brought in bigger characters then AVB, without a DOF, got rid of them.

So I don't think the DOF itself is the problem. Arnesen wanted characters, it appears Comolli didn't. Jol and Redknapp wanted characters, it appears AVB didn't.

It's really a case of getting people in with good judgment, regardless of job role.

Agree with that, if the director of football is in real sync with the manager then everything should run smoothly. Ironically in trying to build a system that requires minimum player turnover and club continuity we tend to achieve the opposite.

 

[onthetwo]

Football is about instincts, feelings and heart. At it's best it's magical and romantic and can make you leap out of your chair in sheer joy.

Few other forms of entertainment can offer up the drama and emotional roller coaster of a good football match.

Running a football club can't be done just by examining statistics and data analysis. Pro Zone might tell you how many miles a player runs but it misses the intuitive analysis that can only come from human instinct. That gut feeling you get inside.

Much like the film industry we see decisions made by committee in football. The money involved is so large that fear of making a mistake stifles creativity and self expression. So people order reports and data analysis to back up there arguments. They need physical evidence to protect them from criticism.

Directors of Football are brought in with their expensive suits and silver tongues. Cost analysis charts and other data are used to compare players turn an instinctive decision into a business one.

"Why buy Scott Parker when his value will depreciate so quickly? This is a poor business decision..."

The Managers instincts become marginalised against the 'data' that is on offer. How can you argue that a certain player will be good for the club when the 'data' says Player B will be better.

As Comolli belatedly acknowledged, ProZone doesn't tell you the character of the player. It doesn't tell you how they react under pressure, how they are in the dressing room, how ambitious they are.

"What good is a Taraabt if he won't listen and learn?"

This push to make every decision a business one is, for me, at the root of Daniel Levy's frustrating failure to achieve his potential.

His most successful Managerial appointment came at a time when all his 'data' and planning had failed him. In appointing Redknapp he had take his fingers off the steering wheel and let the Manager decide the football strategy...at least for a while.

As success came the desire to have more control nawed away at him. He was the Chairman after all and why shouldn't he have more say in what happened in his club. The Director of Football position had some success in the past after all...Maybe he'd just appointed the wrong people...

So out went Harry and in came the smartly dressed, pseudo tactical genius of AVB. A man that only looked good on paper but talked a hell of a game. A man with little to no natural 'instincts' for the game. He didn't rate Van Der Vaart and his subsequent transfer decisions have contributed to the disjointed, average squad we have now. The Director of Football position came back in and what followed has been entirely predictable. A squad assembled by committee with a focus on business strategy and not on instinct.

Levy went back to trusting his 'data' and repeated all his old mistakes over again.

If you pick a Manager, TRUST him to pick the players. If you can't do that then you shouldn't have appointed him in the first place.

Alex Ferguson would travel to youth players parents houses to meet their parents. He would see what their character was like and what they were made of. He knew that more than talent, 'personality' is the greatest predictor of success. Genius is after all 90% perspiration.

So Daniel please step away from the football side of the club. You have run the business side very well but we need another voice who helps balance out the spreadsheets with an instinct of how to assemble and run a successful football team.

 

[Kendall]

I agree that perhaps we have taken it too far with the resale value thing, but ultimately we have to make money from player turnover, it helps to subsidise the gap between us and the teams with much higher revenue streams (City, Chelsea, United, Arsenal, Liverpool).

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

Football in a Sunday Pub league is about passion and joy, and love of playing.

Football in the PL is big business, and if teams do not act accordingly, they will be out of the league, or in receivership.

Decisions on how to construct a team must be made dispassionately - which is not to say that "characters" do not belong, on the contrary, good character players may be an integral part of the make-up of a squad - but they must be tempered with the right mix of skill. In fact, while I am a big proponent of using statistical analysis to measure a players skill - I equally believe that the mental make-up of a player is as important as the skill. Statistics generally do a poor job measuring "soft" data like how hard a player plays, or how well he takes to coaching, or does he have the right mind-set to press and get stuck-in, etc. Personal observations, and interactions do a better job of revealing "character".

That is why, you have to have both points of view - you can't ignore either set of information. Really the scouting department should be all about creating a Venn Diagram - players who have the necessary skill, and players that have the necessary mental attributes, and the target list becomes where they overlap. A good character player without the skill is just as problematic to a squad as a skill player without the right mental make-up.

 

[NEVILLEB]

Stats first feelings later and protect yourself by getting a good price. Don't know how the opposite (as seems implied by the OP) can be true. If you can't measure it isn't there.

That's one of the dumbest things I've read on here.

Prozone wasn't around until 1995.

How do you think all the great players were discovered before then!

 

[SpurSince57]

If you pick a Manager, TRUST him to pick the players. If you can't do that then you shouldn't have appointed him in the first place.

Alex Ferguson would travel to youth players parents houses to meet their parents. He would see what their character was like and what they were made of. He knew that more than talent, 'personality' is the greatest predictor of success. Genius is after all 90% perspiration.

So Daniel please step away from the football side of the club. You have run the business side very well but we need another voice who helps balance out the spreadsheets with an instinct of how to assemble and run a successful football team.

Would you have supported Harry over Joe Cole? And Villas-Boas' wish list was completely mental. I'm sure Levy would have loved to have accommodated him, if only he'd had an Arab sheikh and a couple of hundred million up his sleeve. Ramos got most of the players he wanted, and it was a near-disaster. And what makes people think Pochettino can build a squad?

Ferguson made some truly inspired signings. He also brought in Djemba-Djemba, Kléberson, Bébé, Ralph Milne (remember him?), Talbi, Dong Fangzhou, Obertan, Veron, Forlan, Smailing… Bill Nicholson had his share of lulus too.

You're right. It's not an exact science, but intuition can also get it badly wrong.

We've got Baldini (and no, I'm not impressed either).

 

[Mr Pink]

I agree that perhaps we have taken it too far with the resale value thing, but ultimately we have to make money from player turnover, it helps to subsidise the gap between us and the teams with much higher revenue streams (City, Chelsea, United, Arsenal, Liverpool).

Yeah exactly.

We've done well in the market generally speaking, I just think we've gone a bit OTT recently, trying to be too clever and we've ignored the needs of the team somewhat.

Balance needs realigned.