Fragile Fan Base

[southlondonyiddo]

Honestly my answer to the OP is "no". I feel pretty good about how everything is going.

We can't compete with city or chelsea financially, so we are very unlikely to win anything domestic, and frankly I don't care if either of them win stuff.

We are in probably the only competition in Europe we can actually win. We are doing fine in the league although the football isn't the most attacking (I am one of those odd people that really enjoys watching great defending and can enjoy a good block or tackle as much as sublime skill on the ball).

Now, the really positive bit. I am finally a season ticket holder. I get to cheer (and boo) I get to feel part of it. I love the stadium and the atmosphere. If it is shit, I can yell out that it is shit without my family looking at me like I am mental, it's great.

Finally, the really, really positive bit: Neckoil. It's fucking lovely. And have you tried the sausage rolls at the stadium? Fuck me, they are great!

Absolute wrongun lol

Sausage Rolls are amazing though..

 

[easley91]

Honestly I see far more people complaining about the "entitlement" of fans and "hot takes", and so forth, than people who actually seem to be having a meltdown about anything. It's actually this that sours it a bit for me personally, because I quite enjoy coming on and discussing Spurs with other fans regardless of whether things are going well or not. I feel like we can be a bit dismissive of people just for having a bit of a negative opinion sometimes, and if anyone is actually getting irritated by these kind of posts perhaps it is they who need to take a break somewhat?

Usually after a win people are more positive, and after a loss people are more negative. We're on a bit of a local minimum on the scale of ups and downs at the moment, relative to the fairly recent highs under Poch. This is just how it goes, and what's more weird to me is when somebody says "I'm worried about XYZ" the number of people who seem to interpret this as if they are going to throw themselves off a bridge unless the club makes drastic changes.

I mean, of course people are going to nitpick things on a discussion forum, of course people are going to point at tiny details and speculate about seemingly irrelevant decisions or have crazy ideas about formations and players and managers and transfers and whatnot. This is the place to come, to do that. None of us actually know anything going on behind the scenes. None of us are experts at running a football club. We just like to talk about Spurs. This place would be a lot more boring if everybody was just completely happy with how things were going all the time regardless of performances on the pitch.

See this is where I would disagree and say anyone who has anything remotely positive to say will be dismissed just as much, because it goes against the current grain.

 

[crazyguitarman]

I enjoyed reading your perspective, it's contrary to my experience in the sense that I find the negative style posts outweigh the positive and that I find it all quite exhausting. I suppose the truth may lie somewhere inbetween. Some people do engage too far either way and that will be jarring when you keep butting up against views that are so counter to your own and maybe we can gloss over the impact of how those points are expressed when we are in broad agreement and over-react to those we disagree with.

I suppose my pov is that when things aren't going so well, we end up with a lot of 'emotional dumping' that isn't very productive and leads to more arguments and tedious back and forths. I'm a big fan of having views challenged robustly and their has been some perspectives put forward that have helped me to look at the situation differently as a result of some of the critiques.

Thanks, I enjoyed yours as well and I agree to the extent that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. It usually is. Do you think the "emotional dumping" is unique to when things aren't going well? I feel like people do exactly the same when things are going well, it's just we are a little more receptive to that kind of thing if it comes from a source of positivity.

I was also wondering if this impression of overreacting, and greater-than-normal negativity, is partly driven by the current nature of online discourse as others have suggested. I'm guilty of it myself where I'll be debating somebody with a contrasting view, and my mental image of them involves somebody throwing plates at the wall, ripping off his shirt, murdering kittens in a fit of rage and generally popping a vein or two while trying to get his point across. In reality though, they're probably just sat calmly on the sofa with a coffee in hand as I am. I think it's sometimes the case where the emotive words we read really don't reflect the situation behind the screen, and our interpretation is disproportionate to how they were actually intended.

Whatever the case, I do feel that this is something which at least originated online. Perhaps what we are seeing now is the result of that bleeding out into the real world. I don't really find fans I meet in person now to be any more or less "fragile" than they ever were though. It's just the things they are celebrating or complaining about which have changed over time.

 

[Spurs_1981]

Thanks, I enjoyed yours as well and I agree to the extent that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. It usually is. Do you think the "emotional dumping" is unique to when things aren't going well? I feel like people do exactly the same when things are going well, it's just we are a little more receptive to that kind of thing if it comes from a source of positivity.

I was also wondering if this impression of overreacting, and greater-than-normal negativity, is partly driven by the current nature of online discourse as others have suggested. I'm guilty of it myself where I'll be debating somebody with a contrasting view, and my mental image of them involves somebody throwing plates at the wall, ripping off his shirt, murdering kittens in a fit of rage and generally popping a vein or two while trying to get his point across. In reality though, they're probably just sat calmly on the sofa with a coffee in hand as I am. I think it's sometimes the case where the emotive words we read really don't reflect the situation behind the screen, and our interpretation is disproportionate to how they were actually intended.

Whatever the case, I do feel that this is something which at least originated online. Perhaps what we are seeing now is the result of that bleeding out into the real world. I don't really find fans I meet in person now to be any more or less "fragile" than they ever were though. It's just the things they are celebrating or complaining about which have changed over time.

Again, great post imo and some fascinating insights as you've raised a few points that I'll benefit from mulling over and considering in more detail. It is definately my experience that irl interactions very rarely mirror on-line interactions and the concept that we create negative perceptions of people based on postings is really interesting.

I try and keep in mind when I post that we are all Spurs fans who want the same thing, sucess for our club, but it can be so easy to jump on something I've read and react without thought.

 

[Real_madyidd]

I was with you up until this... Neckoil tastes of soap, and all the meat is undercooked chuddy.

You are dead to me.

 

[Spotter]

I must confess I have kind of lost the love for the premier league full stop . The top four consists of at least 3 teams buying success and breaking FFP as far as l can see. Plus buying decent players off of the remainder of the league . The fact we have to pay probably the highest season ticket prices in a superb stadium is severely getting to me when they serve up a load of rubbish due to the lack of investment . Will always support my club but quite frankly I’m done with the premier league . My match ticket is currently for sale in block 502 if anyone interested in the Chelsea game . Bargain at £80

 

[Lighty64]

In the 90s we at least managed to win two trophies compared to zero in the past decade

The FA Cup was at a time when we were skint, it shows what the difference the PL and CL being introduced has done to this game. from the 60's until the PL & CL money started changing the game, people like Abramovic or the sheik wouldn't have considered buying a football team. the late 70's we saw a team promoted from league 2 that went onto win Division 1, they then won the European cup 2 years running and had a good run winning the League Cup. That will never happen again because of the money involved. when we had successful cup runs in the 70's and 80's that was down to there not being any real gulf in richness. Yes Liverpool dominated the League and cups but most seasons other teams won the FA Cup, and League Cup.

like I said in a previous message once they changed the European Cup (only the league winner), the year we won the League Cup only the top 2 max 3 could play in the CL. Chelsea still had a strong team but without the Abramovic money they never had the depth to compete for the League and cup, the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea, Villa, Newcastle and Leeds were fighting in hope of getting 1 of those lucky spots in the CL, but at the time knocking Arsenal and Man U off their perch made it even harder to compete. The League Cup wasn't important at all, and numerous teams won it over a 10 year period. Then came Abramovic who made their squad stronger around the same time I believe English teams got 3 guaranteed spots and a 4th had to qualify. all of a sudden Man U and Chelsea started going full in on all comps, then came the Sheik who has eventually provided whoever the manager is a squad that can take on all 4. they have won 5 of the last 6.

the annoying thing is even though it hurt and still hurts, Leicester did the impossible, something that I doubt will happen again, especially with the clout of 3 clubs and then having Liverpool who has build a solid squad makes winning anything tough. you now need the luck of the draw, and hope if you get to that final your team plays as well as they can, and either hope you pick up a complete underdog or 1 of those top teams have an off day

 

[soflapaul]

I must confess I have kind of lost the love for the premier league full stop . The top four consists of at least 3 teams buying success and breaking FFP as far as l can see. Plus buying decent players off of the remainder of the league . The fact we have to pay probably the highest season ticket prices in a superb stadium is severely getting to me when they serve up a load of rubbish due to the lack of investment . Will always support my club but quite frankly I’m done with the premier league . My match ticket is currently for sale in block 502 if anyone interested in the Chelsea game . Bargain at £80

are you offering to pay us?

 

[shelfboy68]

I must confess I have kind of lost the love for the premier league full stop . The top four consists of at least 3 teams buying success and breaking FFP as far as l can see. Plus buying decent players off of the remainder of the league . The fact we have to pay probably the highest season ticket prices in a superb stadium is severely getting to me when they serve up a load of rubbish due to the lack of investment . Will always support my club but quite frankly I’m done with the premier league . My match ticket is currently for sale in block 502 if anyone interested in the Chelsea game . Bargain at £80

Levy and ENIC have killed my love of the club

 

[dontcallme]

I'm moving towards the attitude that the club has to make me care. Being a "good, loyal football fan" is simply not something I care about being.

I was feeling pretty bored and detached before Poch took over. Then the way he put the team together and got a group of young players working as a team better than any Spurs team I'd seen in my lifetime reignited me. I loved the peak Poch years.

The downside is the utter deflation of this not working out in the long run. We regularly had one of the youngest squads in the league and once we stagnated there seemed to be no turning it around.

Jose was a missed attempt at reaching the top. Nuno needs to make us feel like a team again. If I am to care about the team then I need them to show they care and are all focused on achieving.

Right now, being a football fan is low on my list of priorities. They either do something to make me care, or I won't care.

 

[Cochise]

I think we've hit the glass ceiling and are now coming down with a large bump on our head. We got used to being one of the best in the league, having some of the best players in the league and playing some of the best football.

The last two years have been a gradual downturn where the quality of football, players and club position have all dropped a level and the immediate future looks bleak. Jose was a real fan base divider, but the promise of at least a trophy saw us weather it. The protracted search for a replacement culminating in the appointment of a man no-one wanted has exacerbated the feeling of "why give a shit?".

The fanbase wants to see a return to what Poch gave us. We want to watch football we can enjoy and we want to see a clear plan of attack. The longer we go without either the more the pressure will build on Nuno. It's a thankless task, but I do think that had the fanbase seen us appoint a coach closer to what we had there'd be more support for them. Nuno won't get that because he is a known entity and one that quite frankly feels below the level we aspire to.

 

[shelfboy68]

I think we've hit the glass ceiling and are now coming down with a large bump on our head. We got used to being one of the best in the league, having some of the best players in the league and playing some of the best football.

The last two years have been a gradual downturn where the quality of football, players and club position have all dropped a level and the immediate future looks bleak. Jose was a real fan base divider, but the promise of at least a trophy saw us weather it. The protracted search for a replacement culminating in the appointment of a man no-one wanted has exacerbated the feeling of "why give a shit?".

The fanbase wants to see a return to what Poch gave us. We want to watch football we can enjoy and we want to see a clear plan of attack. The longer we go without either the more the pressure will be build on Nuno. It's a thankless task, but I do think that had the fanbase seen us appoint a coach closer to what we had there'd be more support for them. Nuno won't get that because he is a known entity and one that quite frankly feels below the level we aspire to.

Nunos appointment is exactly where the club aspires to be otherwise Conte would now be in.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

I think to answer this one properly will take a long and probably complicated and likely rambling answer.

But the first thing that springs to mind is intent, intent from the owners (not words, action) to give the team it's identity back. Exciting football, the odd player who gets your arse of your seat when he gets the ball, I don't think we have one, maybe Traore would have gone a little way toward addressing that. A capable manager (Nuno might turn out to be that, only time will tell) but then again you get one of those and what's the use unless you have or sign the players to match.

Right now I watch the team expecting nothing. It's verging on no interest. And without turning this into an anti-Levy/ENIC thing, for that, they can fuck off. The number of supporters who they are turning off speaks volumes and I can't see how it's to be defended. For me, all these justifications are just rank bollocks, I look at where we are, I look at how they've switched me (and many others off) and that's what counts, not the balance sheets or the other magic things offered up for this shitfest. Where and what we are right now is what counts. Double so when we were so close not all that long ago. Not "oh but oil barons, how can we compete" or any of the other crap, where we are right now. Now, now now. Yes it'd be nice to win things but i'd like to enjoy it a bit along the way, to have a team that plays on the front foot, that gives it a go. No wonder Kane wants out. If he can see it, we can see it, then WTF are the owners playing at? How much do they actually care. You simply have to question it.

So yeah, as @NickHSpurs asks, that'd be a great start, having a team we enjoy watching again. Build from there, cut out the bullshit and show some intent. You don't have to 'Do a Leeds' or spunk the clubs future up the wall on the way.

There you go. Rambling bollocks, sorry........

Absolutely bang on! Intent and direction and better decisions required on the football side but we’ve been waiting 20 years for that so I won’t hold my breath.

 

[Stuart Leathercock]

Yesterday, in the stadium, I bumped into a group of 4 guys that I last saw 30 odd years ago at school. All of them commented that paying £1,500 for a season ticket to watch a team playing unattractive football won’t stay on the agenda for long and with the easy availability of tickets now (there were several thousand available on ticket exchange yesterday all over the stadium and even in groups of 6 or more). They were saying that they were likely to go back to getting memberships and then just picking and choosing games.

Our owners will have to be very careful in charging the highest prices in the PL when they’re own ambition doesn’t appear to be for us to watch the best team in the league.

We have an absolutely huge debt pile and the last thing we need is to lose ST holders in significant numbers. Last season the renewal rate was already far lower than usual seasons. High prices combined with a not particularly good product will see the fans vote with their feet.

 

[shelfboy68]

Yesterday, in the stadium, I bumped into a group of 4 guys that I last saw 30 odd years ago at school. All of them commented that paying £1,500 for a season ticket to watch a team playing unattractive football won’t stay on the agenda for long and with the easy availability of tickets now (there were several thousand available on ticket exchange yesterday all over the stadium and in groups of 6 or more). They were saying that they were likely to go back to getting memberships and then just picking and choosing games.

Our owners will have to be very careful in charging the highest prices in the PL when they’re own ambition doesn’t appear to be for us to watch the best team in the league.

We have an absolutely huge debt pile and the last thing we need is to lose ST holders in significant numbers. Last season the renewal rate was already far lower than usual seasons. High prices combined with a not particularly good product will see the fans vote with their feet.

I'm afraid more of this needs to happen and as the team continues to fall apart each season more fans will take up this option.
No good having a world class stadium when you team is third class well done ENIC for fucking it up.

 

[Albertbarich]

Last season was the most toxic I've ever known. Mourinho was so divisive and I dread to think what would have happened if fans had been in the ground.

Then the chairman decides to make a ridiculous speech about DNA to then see over the most shambolic manager search I have ever seen any club conduct only to appoint a man he clearly didn't want and one that plays the opposite sort of football to the clubs supposed DNA.

Of course the fan base is fragile. The clubs a joke . It's Disney world on the outside (stadium ) with Disney prices and when you get inside the product is Chessington. (The team)

You can't go from a champions league final to competing for 8th whilst playing dire football and charging the prices they do without pissing people off.

But it will be fine if they start winning. Even one win will get people defending them again and people like me will have to shut up as winning football matches overshadows everything

 

[Goobers]

Last season was the most toxic I've ever known. Mourinho was so divisive and I dread to think what would have happened if fans had been in the ground.

Then the chairman decides to make a ridiculous speech about DNA to then see over the most shambolic manager search I have ever seen any club conduct only to appoint a man he clearly didn't want and one that plays the opposite sort of football to the clubs supposed DNA.

Of course the fan base is fragile. The clubs a joke . It's Disney world on the outside (stadium ) with Disney prices and when you get inside the product is Chessington. (The team)

You can't go from a champions league final to competing for 8th whilst playing dire football and charging the prices they do without pissing people off.

But it will be fine if they start winning. Even one win will get people defending them again and people like me will have to shut up as winning football matches overshadows everything

Agreed with much of this.

The underlying factor is not striking whilst the iron was hot but that ship has sailed. We now have to rebvusile and that will be painful. I don't think a lo6t of this season will bee fun to watch but I do truly believe that the current manage has true integrity and the older I get the more I value that.

 

[dorsetyid]

It was the DNA thing that finally did for me. I was always pro enic but hiring Nuno after saying that confirms that Levy doesn’t actually know what the clubs DNA is. I watch on tv but I will be damned if the club gets a penny from me in tickets or merch.
I felt pretty disillusioned at the end of Sherwoods reign but even then it looked like the club had a direction of travel. We look directionless as a club, like everyone from the owner to the playing staff is content with average. This feels more like the Sugar years than at any time since enic bought the club. I am going to get push back on this but I genuinely think I preferred 2 points in 8 games era to this uninspired garbage.

 

[shelfboy68]

Agreed with much of this.

The underlying factor is not striking whilst the iron was hot but that ship has sailed. We now have to rebvusile and that will be painful. I don't think a lo6t of this season will bee fun to watch but I do truly believe that the current manage has true integrity and the older I get the more I value that.

True integrity might be good enough to finish 8th or 9th but ambition, money, good manager and players gets you touching and grabbing glory are you still happy with integrity?

 

[shelfboy68]

It was the DNA thing that finally did for me. I was always pro enic but hiring Nuno after saying that confirms that Levy doesn’t actually know what the clubs DNA is. I watch on tv but I will be damned if the club gets a penny from me in tickets or merch.
I felt pretty disillusioned at the end of Sherwoods reign but even then it looked like the club had a direction of travel. We look directionless as a club, like everyone from the owner to the playing staff is content with average. This feels more like the Sugar years than at any time since enic bought the club. I am going to get push back on this but I genuinely think I preferred 2 points in 8 games era to this uninspired garbage.

Clubs DNA is ???????????????????????