Gray and Keys could face 2 years in prison for making a joke about Harry

[yido_number1]

:shrug:

I'm sorry. I've read that now a couple of times and I'm still not sure what your objection is. The OP suggest that the WHO poster was 'typical WH.' My point being that whether you believe it or not I am not racist in any way shape or form and yet I also subscribe to the belief that Stephen Lawrence's murder was not simply an unprovoked racist attack. The insinuation that anyone who does not believe that to be the case must be racist is IMO abhorrent.

The witness reports from people at the bus stop would suggest SL and his mate were waiting for a bus when a group of lads walked across the road towards him and attacked him... I'd say the evidence points to unprovoked...

Eltham is not a great place to be at the best of times whether it was racial (which is very likely) or just a group of wallies intent on hurting someone its still wrong whether he had been a "good boy" or not... NO point trying to fight a case to justify someone getting stabbed and killed...

 

[wearetheparklane]

Interesting words from a few on here (and the WH site) that portray a different SL to the one that you read and hear about. I tried to find anything on the net that followed true to these claims but the truth is he was 18 and had never been in trouble with the police. This profile on the BBC site, although probably a little OTT, also contradicts any claims of SL being of questionable character.

To those who made these claims that 'all is not what it seems' I would be interested in their thoughts on the following:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13441122

 

[Lilbaz]

:shrug:

The witness reports from people at the bus stop would suggest SL and his mate were waiting for a bus when a group of lads walked across the road towards him and attacked him... I'd say the evidence points to unprovoked...

Eltham is not a great place to be at the best of times whether it was racial (which is very likely) or just a group of wallies intent on hurting someone its still wrong whether he had been a "good boy" or not... NO point trying to fight a case to justify someone getting stabbed and killed...

Devils advocate. and hypothetical situation not anything to do with Lawrence as it was very possibly an unprovoked attack.

My sister gets raped, we know who did it but my sister doesn't want to go to the police.
My friend comes up and tells me he knows where the guy is. I get a knife and me and a couple of mates go to do him.
We see him and run over start fighting and I stab him, I shout out take that you black ****. Another mate shouts out the n word.
He dies.
We get nicked. We reckon we've got a good chance of getting off so plead innocent.

Is that a racist attack? Is it unprovoked?

 

[Dinghy]

Interesting words from a few on here (and the WH site) that portray a different SL to the one that you read and hear about. I tried to find anything on the net that followed true to these claims but the truth is he was 18 and had never been in trouble with the police. This profile on the BBC site, although probably a little OTT, also contradicts any claims of SL being of questionable character.

To those who made these claims that 'all is not what it seems' I would be interested in their thoughts on the following:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13441122

I'm pleased to see that some may be a little more open-minded! :wink: I personally can't say as I was only really (to some extent) trying to counter-balance the posts a little! It does annoy me when sterotypes of any kind are used.
That saying what I was saying wasn't entirely without foundation and I do know people that live in that area and I personally frequented the area a lot more often back then. The people that I knew back then knew both the group of accused and SL. They believed (and I have no reason to doubt them) that there was far more to the situation than was being reported.
What I do find ironic in that article is the line "The irony is that the Lawrences behaved exactly how every black family is supposed to behave." Why "how every black family"? Are they supposed to behave differently? When racist tags are being thrown around...

 

[riggi]

Eh? Life for what? The witch hunt was all because they told lads jokes. I don't know why that should create such hatred that they deserve life in prison. You a Feminazi? Just asking.

Bang on.

 

[SpurSince57]

Maybe one of the Mods could collect all the Lawrence stuff and dump it in its own thread in Chat? :shrug:

 

[Dinghy]

Maybe one of the Mods could collect all the Lawrence stuff and dump it in its own thread in Chat? :shrug:

Sorry about that. I'd like to say I really didn't want to take it OT but... I obviously wasn't that bothered else I wouldn't have continued to post!

 

[JimmyG2]

Devils advocate. and hypothetical situation not anything to do with Lawrence as it was very possibly an unprovoked attack.

My sister gets raped, we know who did it but my sister doesn't want to go to the police.
My friend comes up and tells me he knows where the guy is. I get a knife and me and a couple of mates go to do him.
We see him and run over start fighting and I stab him, I shout out take that you black ****. Another mate shouts out the n word.
He dies.
We get nicked. We reckon we've got a good chance of getting off so plead innocent.

Is that a racist attack? Is it unprovoked?

It's like the Moral Maze on here.
Now Sir can I try to untwist your hypothetical ethical knickers.

If you think he commited the rape because he's black then it's a racist attack.
The use of the words 'nigger' and 'black bastard' during the murder would be used by the prosecution to indicate a racist motive.

A revenge killing is murder and the fact that you were attempting to redeem your sister's virtue is not a defence. Well not in civilised countries anyway.

As far as the law is concerned it is unprovoked but your lawyer would probably raise it as mitigation against sentence but not against conviction.

So in my view it is racist and unprovoked.
I am not a lawyer and stand to be corrected.

I can see many flaws in your scenario but have taken it at face value for sake of argument.

Are you trying to suggest that there are behind the scenes reasons why Stephen Lawrence was murdered?
I repeat there is nothing in the public domain to support this, only 'hearsay' local rumour and gossip.

 

[Dinghy]

It's like the Moral Maze on here.

It's all good fun ain't it!

Now Sir can I try to untwist your hypothetical ethical knickers.

If you think he commited the rape because he's black then it's a racist attack.

I don't believe he said that. Why insinuate that? He said that he knows...

The use of the words 'nigger' and 'black bastard' during the murder would be used by the prosecution to indicate a racist motive.

IMO then the law is indeed an ass. The motive in this hypothetical situation was revenge and not racist.

A revenge killing is murder and the fact that you were attempting to redeem your sister's virtue is not a defence. Well not in civilised countries anyway.

I don't think that anyone is claiming it not to be.

As far as the law is concerned it is unprovoked but your lawyer would probably raise it as mitigation against sentence but not against conviction.

So in my view it is racist and unprovoked.

IMO in this hypothetical situation it just so happens that the offence may have been enacted by a racist but this in and of itself does not make it a racist act.

I am not a lawyer and stand to be corrected.

I can see many flaws in your scenario but have taken it at face value for sake of argument.

Are you trying to suggest that there are behind the scenes reasons why Stephen Lawrence was murdered?
I repeat there is nothing in the public domain to support this, only 'hearsay' local rumour and gossip.

I can't speak for anyone else, and can only go on hearsay or "local rumour" but I certainly believe that there were indeed behind the scenes reasons behind the attack. FWIW the people that I knew in the area at the time were very involved in the local drug scene. :wink:

 

[ThorntonSpur]

i thought talksport was a prison sentence

 

[JimmyG2]

It's all good fun ain't it!I don't believe he said that. Why insinuate that? He said that he knows... IMO then the law is indeed an ass. The motive in this hypothetical situation was revenge and not racist. I don't think that anyone is claiming it not to be.IMO in this hypothetical situation it just so happens that the offence may have been enacted by a racist but this in and of itself does not make it a racist act.
I can't speak for anyone else, and can only go on hearsay or "local rumour" but I certainly believe that there were indeed behind the scenes reasons behind the attack. FWIW the people that I knew in the area at the time were very involved in the local drug scene. :wink:

Why shout racist terms when committing the murder if the crime has no element of racism?
We are not in court and cannot cross examine the witnesses motivation
Killing a 'black' person whilst shouting racist abuse implies a racist motivation especially if as you suggest the murderer may have been a racist.
Very difficult to unravel the strands here.
I see the trap that is being set up but we cannot examine the situation in sufficient depth

Would he have commited the murder if the perpetrator was white?

Your comment that the local people were 'heavily involved in the local drug scene' raises doubts as to their impartiality or integrity as witnesses.
Were these people friends of Stephen Lawrence?
or friends of the Eltham Six?
It's very shakey grounds to rely on 'hearsay'.

I think you're still afloat despite my attempts to hole you below the waterline

 

[Dinghy]

Why shout racist terms when committing the murder if the crime has no element of racism?
We are not in court and cannot cross examine the witnesses motivation
Killing a 'black' person whilst shouting racist abuse implies a racist motivation especially if as you suggest the murderer may have been a racist.

I think you are missing the point in the above scenario. The reason for the murder is revenge for the rape. The racist nature of the perpetrators and the racist abuse is incidental to the actual murder...

Very difficult to unravel the strands here.
I see the trap that is being set up but we cannot examine the situation in sufficient depth

Would he have commited the murder if the perpetrator was white?

I think this was the point of the above scenario. The racism just muddies the waters

Your comment that the local people were 'heavily involved in the local drug scene' raises doubts as to their impartiality or integrity as witnesses.
Were these people friends of Stephen Lawrence?
or friends of the Eltham Six?

They knew both from within the scene (for want of a better word)

It's very shakey grounds to rely on 'hearsay'.

I don't dispute that. But isn't it only hearsay that they were racist?

I think you're still afloat despite my attempts to hole you below the waterline

I can argue 'til the cows come home!

 

[mike_l]

I don't get how people make the leap from someone saying SL was no saint, to interpreting it as SL deserved to die.

It's a hell of a fucking leap.

 

[3Dnata]

i thought talksport was a prison sentence

If they aren't rehabilitated by talksport they have to go on Loose Women.

 

[Gedi]

I thought their comments about having a go on Loose Women is part of what landed them in trouble in the first place!

 

[AW?]

I went on to talkshit briefly today as I often flick through the channels out of boredom and Andy Gray was on there laughing hysterically about something, but his laugh sounded exactly like a Magpie which is probably one of the most horrendous noises known to man. Just when I thought I couldn't dislike him any more.

 

[3Dnata]

I thought their comments about having a go on Loose Women is part of what landed them in trouble in the first place!

I set'em up you put them away.

 

[ghetto_spur]

pm meeeeee

 

[JimmyG2]

Fascinating stuff and considerably more important than the original thread.
But I agree it should have been separated.
Apologies to the original poster.

Anyway think I am argued out on this one and I'm needed in the milking parlour

 

[Lilbaz]

Fascinating stuff and considerably more important than the original thread.
But I agree it should have been separated.
Apologies to the original poster.

Anyway think I am argued out on this one and I'm needed in the milking parlour

But we still don't know if Keys and Gray are racist or if it was an unprovoked attack on Harry. Or were they just on drugs? I'm confused.

Off subject (again) how did our phone hacking case go? I believe we were in court yesterday?