Greg Dyke and the future of the England team

[talkshowhost86]

I agree with the first part and as I said we are techincally miles behind but I do think its a bit of a vicous circle as the less English players are playing reguarly, the less they can improve.

As for the 90's, I think the talent available was far superior than it is now. I think the curreent crop of English players are the worst I can remember. I remember the England team under Hoddle in 98 and I think that the best we have been since the 1990 World Cup. Its a shame Hoddle had such man management problems and made those stupid remarks as I thought we were building an excellent team which could start to at least compete against the best.

I don't like England under Hodgson as they bore me but I feel sorry for him as I don't think any manager in the world could get England to a World Cup final these days, let alone win it.

Whilst the talent pool was better, I don't think it was much better.

Our most successful tournament in the last 10 years was Euro 96, and in that tournament we only actually won 2 games out of 5.

I agree about Hodgson though. Not really sure what he can do with this England team unless he just gives up on the current batch and basically picks a squad of youngsters that will hopefully gel for the future. It will never happen though.

 

[hellava_tough]

To be fair England's record has always been fairly mediocre

Out of 29 major tournaments spanning 60-odd years we've managed one win, two 3rd place and one 4th place finishes

The problem goes beyond the PL era

 

[Syn_13]

My little man has just signed up with a local club, and all training is based on ball work and control, with short areas on scoring.

All dribbling with little balls, passing, space awareness - actually quite impressed with the training to be honest.

His first league game on Saturday - he's excited, but the grass roots is really being looked at these days.

That sounds great, Shanks. It doesn't matter where you play on the pitch, even in goal, you should be truly comfortable with the ball at your feet.

 

[Shanks]

That sounds great, Shanks. It doesn't matter where you play on the pitch, even in goal, you should be truly comfortable with the ball at your feet.

Yeah, its quite decent.

My boy has seen me play in goal, and always asks to play in goal, but the coaches rotate fairly.

He is the quickest and strongest by quite some, he'll be a big lad when he grows up (I'm 6'7 tall myself), but he's unreal in goal. I'm keen for him to learn how to play football before sorting out an actual position.

I also met a guy at his school, who is a youth scout for Liverpool (we live in Hampshire!), he reckons kids shouldn't do anything like that until they are at least 11/12 tops - no positions, just playing with a ball, as that way you can see who has natural talent, the rest you can train.

Pretty insightful really, I've been doing quite a lot recently on training itself, how to teach ball control, it's pretty interesting watching a video of my son 6 months ago, to now - he's like a different player, but he mostly learned to do these by watching players like Bale on TV and Fifa and then going out in the street to practise...

 

[Syn_13]

Yeah, its quite decent.

My boy has seen me play in goal, and always asks to play in goal, but the coaches rotate fairly.

He is the quickest and strongest by quite some, he'll be a big lad when he grows up (I'm 6'7 tall myself), but he's unreal in goal. I'm keen for him to learn how to play football before sorting out an actual position.

I also met a guy at his school, who is a youth scout for Liverpool (we live in Hampshire!), he reckons kids shouldn't do anything like that until they are at least 11/12 tops - no positions, just playing with a ball, as that way you can see who has natural talent, the rest you can train.

Pretty insightful really, I've been doing quite a lot recently on training itself, how to teach ball control, it's pretty interesting watching a video of my son 6 months ago, to now - he's like a different player, but he mostly learned to do these by watching players like Bale on TV and Fifa and then going out in the street to practise...

That is a great way of thinking, really like that. I remember when I was a kid it was all about where you played on the pitch, it wasn't until I went back to Italy that I realised this means nothing if you can't actually play the ball. It's not about whether you're a winger or a striker, or even if you're a defender or an attacker . It's about being a footballer first and foremost.

 

[Shanks]

That is a great way of thinking, really like that. I remember when I was a kid it was all about where you played on the pitch, it wasn't until I went back to Italy that I realised this means nothing if you can't actually play the ball. It's not about whether you're a winger or a striker, or even if you're a defender or an attacker . It's about being a footballer first and foremost.

I agree and remember completely.

I used to enjoy playing midfield when I was a kid, loved scoring and I was quite natural in front of goal, but when I joined a club, I was stuck in goal simply because I was tallest, even though I felt I was better than most on pitch.

As it turned out, I ended up playing in goal, but by the time I was 16, I found myself sick of being in goal - I was at a conference team, with possibility of being taken on by professional clubs, but I hated being stuck in goal through all of those years.

At the time I was playing basketball and scoring for fun - much more enjoyable, so I stopped football. Probably my biggest mistake.

I train my eldest in goal and he is unreal considering he is 7 - I have no doubt he has talent playing in goal, but he's the quickest on pitch - I won't be making the same mistakes my old man done with me, he gets to express himself fully, but I'll keep training him to be a keeper as well on the side!

 

[SlunkSoma]

Personally i think until the money is capped in the English game, the national team will suffer. That will never happen IMO. Too much rides on exciting, marketable football that foreign players can bring. Football isn't about development, it isn't even about sport - it is about profitability. The first step in this process needs to be reaffirming the belief that football should be a competitive sport. You have billionaire owners bankrolling teams (us included), each one damaging the development of real talent. At this rate it is only going to get worse for English players.

It's also worth noting that English players, and British sportsmen in general have it easy compared to their foreign counterparts. Tennis for example, because their is a dearth of talent, as soon as you achieve anything of note at a youth level you are already deemed to have succeeded. You get endorsements (ok, not necessarily in the league of C Ronaldo) you get the fancy training facilities, you get molly coddled. There is no grit, no struggle to hone your talents to the point of higher development and achievement.

Removing the financial gain for people to propel a football club to success is the key to this. The focus will then return to what the game is supposed to be. Competitive, balanced and driven by regional pride. It's a real shame that Spurs don't have a promising youngster to get behind this season - I miss that connection. Carroll, Kane etc are homegrown - but they are far down the pecking order seeing them start usually means we are playing our weaker XI.

 

[Syn_13]

I agree and remember completely.

I used to enjoy playing midfield when I was a kid, loved scoring and I was quite natural in front of goal, but when I joined a club, I was stuck in goal simply because I was tallest, even though I felt I was better than most on pitch.

As it turned out, I ended up playing in goal, but by the time I was 16, I found myself sick of being in goal - I was at a conference team, with possibility of being taken on by professional clubs, but I hated being stuck in goal through all of those years.

At the time I was playing basketball and scoring for fun - much more enjoyable, so I stopped football. Probably my biggest mistake.

I train my eldest in goal and he is unreal considering he is 7 - I have no doubt he has talent playing in goal, but he's the quickest on pitch - I won't be making the same mistakes my old man done with me, he gets to express himself fully, but I'll keep training him to be a keeper as well on the side!

It's funny because they say that the kids that seemed to get pushed more were always the bigger, stronger kids. You clearly found your height to be a disadvantage as your coach made presumptions about you.

I never made it to a particularly good level in football, my old man did quite well for himself. Back in Italy he played for a team called Akragas who, during his last season with them before moving to England, came runners up in Serie C2 (kind of like League 1/2 level). He was quite a player I was told and was going to be offered a contract for Palermo along with his mate, but in those days money was awful for a footballer, particularly in Sicily. He moved to England to find work and couldn't get to the same level because of the difference in style and being homesick. He played for Dagenham at one point for a short while (pre-Dagenham & Redbridge days) but hated the way English football was at the time in the lower league and was looked down upon because he was an immigrant and too much of a "flair player" according to him. He found his career cut short by a severe back injury and now has multiple deteriorated discs, had to have spinal fusion a few years back. Funny old world...

 

[Azazello]

I think it's a supply-side issue - until there is a (greater) supply of quality English players, the national team will suffer and the proportion of English players playing at an elite level will suffer too, relative to the elite leagues in Spain, Italy and Germany.There are plenty of templates for the FA to follow in focussing efforts on developing quality English players.

As an ancillary issue, England needs to be decoupled from the batty British state, to some extent at least, so that it can develop its own identity as a nation. National football in Germany is important partly because German national identity is strong. It's all a but wishy-washy in England where people seem to censor themselves into talking about being British rather than being English.

 

[punkisback]

When you have Pearce picking players like Henderson over Carroll in the u21 teams thats whats wrong; and Milner over Johnson/Lennon in the main team.
We also need to get rid of the old guard, Lampard, Gerrard, Terry, Ferdinand,Cole, Barry, Parker should never play international football after this tournament. Heck, all those with the exception of Cole should never have gone to the last tournament.
We should be nurturing players with actual ability and technique who've been marginalised, such as the likes of Huddlestone, Adam Johnson, Lennon. Hodgson made a good call on sturridge, the boy has technique and intelligence, whilst he may be selfish, this is something that can be drilled out. Instead of getting top top t'riffic lads in the first team who have great attitudes but lack ability; we should look at ability first and their attitudes later; its easier to change attitudes than improve players technical ability.

 

[Shanks]

It's not even at U21 level is it.

Smalling who hasn't played this season has been picked for the 1st team, yet Dawson who has featured every game isn't.

Not saying Dawson is better than Smalling (although I believe he actually is), but picking players who don't play for their clubs isn't the best way to pick players.

Pick players who play regularly for their team and are playing in form.

Pick your style and formations (adaptable granted), run it through from u16 england level, right through every other single level.

Which will mean those at U16 level, if they make it that far, won't need any transitional period when going from club to national team. Yes we may not win, but we'd have a team that can play as a team, instead of a scared looking bunch of guys waiting for one of the old chaps to tell them what to do.

Let players have the confidence to go out and play, yes a mistake might be had, but let them learn that way - it's the best way.

I'm not saying this will fix our issues, but it would be a damn better way to have one national team, with the same ethos right from kids level through to the top level, picking the form players in the right positions.

What message does it send out to those who play, unless you play for Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal or Chelsea - you can play as often as you like, or as a good as you like, we'll still pick their reserves.

FUBAR

 

[Annabel]

If Greg dyke really said the target is that England will win the 2022 world cup, that means the plays who will be at their peak at age 26/28 are playing in the under 19s now.

The current under 19 squad of 18 players has 4 from the Chelsea youth set up, 3 from Norwich, 2 each from Man U & Arse, and 7 from other random clubs.

I'm not particularly confident. England always seem to prefer the hoofer/body on the line types than the really skilful players.

 

[EnfieldYiddo]

If Greg dyke really said the target is that England will win the 2022 world cup, that means the plays who will be at their peak at age 26/28 are playing in the under 19s now.

The current under 19 squad of 18 players has 4 from the Chelsea youth set up, 3 from Norwich, 2 each from Man U & Arse, and 7 from other random clubs.

I'm not particularly confident. England always seem to prefer the hoofer/body on the line types than the really skilful players.

We're seeing a shift though.

A midfield trio of Carroll/Hughes/Barkley/Wilshere is very technical and play the type of football we desire - They'll be our best midfield for decades, far exceeding Lampard/Gerrard combo on an international stage

The problem for me is a dearth in striking talent.

 

[worcestersauce]

why, may I ask, do young English players need to play in the English Premier League? All the foreign players now in the epl have one thing in common they started and learned their craft in other countries so why don't our youngsters go abroad at an early age to become better players, perhaps the FA could look at sponsoring that.
we've just bought Erikson a Dane who went through the Ajax academy why don't English players ever come through the Ajax academy?

 

[EnfieldYiddo]

why, may I ask, do young English players need to play in the English Premier League? All the foreign players now in the epl have one thing in common they started and learned their craft in other countries so why don't our youngsters go abroad at an early age to become better players, perhaps the FA could look at sponsoring that.
we've just bought Erikson a Dane who went through the Ajax academy why don't English players ever come through the Ajax academy?

On the whole we're a philistine nation; that's why.

 

[jondesouza]

But isn't that because they weren't getting the quality of player that they needed through these youth systems? I agree that it is currently easier to buy foreign imports, but that's largely because they are actually better players. If the English players were actually any good, they'd be getting interest from abroad but that simply isn't the case.

I think the number of foreign players is a symptom of the poor quality of English players, not a cause.

I think that's partly right TSH but I also think that there's an element where managers know that if they pick the international player who cost x million pounds they're less likely to get it in the neck that if they picked some youngster who has come through the Academy.

 

[JimmyG2]

One of my grandchildren ( now aged 9)began training at his local sports club last year.
Just outside Madrid, pretty even split of Athletico (Falcao shirts last season)
and Real fans (Ronaldo) with a sprinkling of Barcelona fans amongst them. (mainly Messi shirts)
Two hour sessions twice a week , small groups, qualified or qualifying coaches, no volunteer parents
Mainly ball work, half pitch, eight a side 20 minute games to finish.
Proper warm up and warm down sessions.
Hour long competetive league games every week
with analysis and discussion at the beginning of the next session.
He in fact joined late as there are two younger groups beneath him.
Emphasis on skills rather than strength, each child has a ball available.
All taken very seriously with awards and cups for everything.
Its a private club and quite expensive (150 Euros per year) but the pitches are all weather
with floodlights for the winter.

66% of Players in the Spanish league are Spanish.
38% of players in Premiership are English.
Spain are World and European champions.
We are not.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Why should the national game, basically 10 games plus tournaments every 2 years be prioritised over the performance of league teams ?

I'm all for improving coaching methods for kids to produce technically better footballers, but The FA constantly assume that the ultimate goal is producing a better national team. Frankly the performance of the national team is way down on my priority list compared to my club and the quality of the league they play in in general, pretty much always has been and always will be. So I'm fine with the FA introducing guidelines for coaching etc, but I don't want them meddling with clubs and quotas and all that bollocks.

 

[teok]

It's been said a million times but we do the basics of football badly. We have players in the premiership who seem unable to control a football and pass it quickly.

These skills should be ingrained in players from single digits and constantly worked on.

Look at a country like croatia. Just checking wikipedia it has just over 4 million people. That is what half the size of greater london alone (1/15th the size of england)? When was the last english player you can remember that could play like modric?

Given the amount of money available it's so incompetent it's embarrassing.

 

[Danners9]

The FA have been stuck with a problem, it comes down to priorities and they haven't been able to balance the two things; maintain a high profile national team and develop players for the future.

The national sides have been so focused on qualifying for competitions that they haven't been willing to fail in order to rebuild. Players in the England squads are stale, been there so long that the next crop are far behind in their development - a problem that affects league sides, too. For the last World Cup they had 2 goalies who had been fighting relegation and Joe Hart with just 3 caps at the time. That has been fixed, now but Joe's form is a bit off. Hodgson has been changing the squad, thankfully, but he has little choice really.. the old favourites are just that, old. Heskey was still in the 2010 squad. Not saying he would be picked now but his first call up was in 1998, retiring in 2010 with 7 goals from 62 games... as a forward and still picked consistently.

England NEEDS to qualify, but when it gets there the team is underprepared and often worn out because of the league season.

The U21s for the recent tournament has players like Rose with 27 caps, Henderson with 24, Lansbury with 16 and Delfouneso with 16. Connor Wickham now has 17 caps for the U21s. James Milner played 47 times for the U21s but at least he did move on to become a regular member of the senior squad.

They should progress through the system or be left behind. And that goes right the way down, focus on building better players and the results will come.. not focus on winning games using the same players and ignoring the others. The likes of Terry, Lampard, Ashley Cole and Gerrard should be phased out, if not binned altogether - they are still performing well enough to get in (except Terry who is now a sub for Chelsea it seems) but England should be moving on and not relying on the old guard, even if it means losing some games.

A lot of the older players from France retired after they won the World Cup/European Championships, as happened with the England Rugby team when they beat Australia (hurrah!), but what followed was a period of mediocrity. Spain has been planning for years and years to be where the national teams are now. England is so far behind.