Greg Dyke and the future of the England team

[Chris_D]

If the kids are good enough someone will want them. Perhaps it's a bigger problem that our youngsters don't go abroad to get games? Yes the premier league is very strong and you're not going to get games there aged 17 unless you're truly exceptional but in an EU of 28 nations why can't a good English teenager move to Belgium or Poland to show what he's made of? Look at Paulinho he didn't get a premier league place till he was mid twenties but had the guts to move from Brazil to Vilnius and Lodz to show he had what it took. A kid growing up in Tottenham doesn't need a visa to get into those teams, unlike Paulinho, but we never hear of local kids doing it. I fear it's just more comfortable to sit at home getting paid as an academy product instead of really learning your trade. Give our youngsters a kick up the backside don't blame the clubs hiring the best players they can get. If the clubs are doing something wrong it might be giving the youngsters too much money and not too little. Controversial I'm sure but look at English clubs and Brazilian clubs, their finances and who produces the players. We need to change something big this might be worth a go.

 

[talkshowhost86]

No we weren't. Two years previously we made it to a World Cup semi final. We may not have got out of the group stages of Euro '92 but the football we were playing was a million times better than it is now. Back then England played exciting and attacking football and if it weren't for the crossbar against France or Peter Schmeichel England would have qualified from that group. Watch the England goal against Sweden, the finish wasn't the finest but the build up was pretty decent. When was the last time England passed the ball so well against decent opposition in a competition?



Apart from the World Cup in 1966.



I agree the 'Golden Generation' have been shown up but some of England's legends were among the best in the world. Gordon Banks pulled off one of the best saves ever to deny Pele, Bobby Moore took the ball off Jairzinho as easily as taking candy from a baby, Gary Lineker played over 100 games for Barca, anyone who saw Sir Tom Finney play compares him to Pele, Best and Di Stefano and Sir Stanley Matthews was described as almost unstoppable by Franz Beckenbauer.

The low standard of coaching in this country is a problem but so is the dwindling talent pool. How many English left backs play in the top flight? (Off the top of my head I can think of six and most of them don't play regularly.)

The low talent pool is BECAUSE of the low standard of coaching and that is what Dyke has ignored.

Clubs aren't buying foreign players for the fun of it. It's because those players are much better.

The aim should be to improve the quality of English players. Not to allow them spots in squads simply because they are English.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/sport/football/I_nationals/article1310556.ece

2022: A doomed odyssey? ​

With the technical ability of players lagging behind the world's best, England have more to worry about than too many foreign players​

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When Everton’s Ross Barkley came on for his England debut against Moldova it was clear the Three Lions shirt is going to fit him like a tailor-made suit.​

Off the ball he moved naturally into the right positions. On it, there was evidence of the package he brings: two-footedness, bold intentions, shooting threat and a rare alchemy of brawn and explosiveness that must make opponents wonder why, thundering towards them, appears to be a light-heavyweight boxer, with football skills, who can sprint.​

“It is a step up from a Premier League club to play with these England boys. But he has taken to it like a duck to water,” Roy Hodgson said. It has all come together in Barkley — raw ingredients, right club, good family, a city where the parks are still full of football games and kids want to be players, not PlayStation-ers.​

Yes, when it all comes together England can dream the Greg Dyke dream of doing things to world champion standard, in the sport they invented but have seldom ruled.​

The problem is, it comes together infrequently and maybe less often than ever before. Barkley is fleeing towards stardom in a lifeboat while the great vessel of English football ploughs on towards the wrong shores. Dyke has announced his country’s game is a “tanker which needs turning” and as new Football Association chairman wants the old, compromised body he runs to thrust its hands back on the tiller.​

Yet it is the clubs who steer youth development. The FA ceded navigation duty long ago. The Premier League — deafeningly silent on Dyke’s speech and his call for them to participate in a commission — are miffed at being portrayed as the problem when, through their Elite Player Player Performance Plan (EPPP), designed to reduce teams’ reliance on overseas imports (Dyke’s bugbear), they regard themselves as the only ones seriously attempting a solution.​

If they were brutally honest, the Premier League could point out that the performance of the England team — or even the general quality of English talent — is not their job. Their job is to stage an exciting competition that makes oceans of cash and they do it rather well. They started on EPPP at a time when it would have been easy to complacent, in 2009, at the end of a stretch of five years where every Champions League final contained at least one Premier League club. What were the FA doing then? Wasting energy on a farcical World Cup bid and paying a foreign coach £6m a year.​

OK. History does not make much of a case for the FA to be given back leadership of shaping the game at the highest level. Dyke acknowledges past failings. “We have to accept we have not done as well as we should,” he said and nobody can deny the trend he identified. In 21 years of the Premier League — of which Dyke was an architect — the proportion of English players starting matches has fallen from 69% to 32% and three-quarters of signings made by Premier League clubs in a £630m spree this summer were foreigners. The selection pool is now so small that half the Englishmen who started on the Premier League’s opening weekend had England caps. As that tanker ploughs on, fresh generations get left in its wake.​

Barkley was part of an England Under-17 team that won the European Championship in 2010. They beat Spain in the final, so there was nothing inferior at that point of development about the quality of a group of English players. But what has happened to it since shows — for all the good of EPPP and past FA failings — why there was a need for Dyke’s speech.​

Just five of the 13 players England Under-17s used in that 2010 final have progressed to even one start in the Premier League. One is without a club. The most vaunted prospect, Josh McEachran, has a celebrity girlfriend and has earned millions but is a long way from favour at Chelsea. He made mixed impressions during loans at Middlesbrough and Swansea and one coach who has worked with him wonders whether — though his technical gifts are obvious — he has the “personality” to succeed.​

Is that not a familiar story of the hyped young English player? Now look at the Spanish kids defeated in 2010. They have made fewer headlines as individuals and none like Barkley or Jack Butland were fast-tracked to full international caps, but as a group there is more consistency about their progress.​

More have made top-flight starts than their English counterparts and, en masse, they have played significantly more top-flight minutes. More are now first-choice players at their clubs. Real Madrid’s Jese Rodriguez and Barcelona’s Gerard Deulofeu (on loan at Everton) are regarded as prospects equal to Barkley.​

Dyke’s thesis, that talent is not finding the right pathway in the Premier League to develop, is unarguable and if it was just a question of the raw English material not being “good enough” why did Gerard Pique or Paul Pogba leave to progress their careers, despite being at Manchester United, the club with the best record of development?​

What can Dyke do? His commission — whether the Premier League participates or not — is a cunning PR manoeuvre that secures him the mandate for future action. He has already achieved his prime aim: putting the future of the England team back at the centre of football’s debate.​

The most interesting idea he floated was tightening the work permit system. Nearly a third of foreign players allowed into England don’t meet the criteria and are waved through after hearings. Dyke recalls officals at Brentford, the club he chaired, talking about signing an Albanian striker. “How are we going to get him?” Dyke asked. “Relax,” was the answer. “He’ll get in on appeal.” But which players play in the Premier League will stay something the FA can affect only at the margins. Though Dyke said “when England does well everyone in the game is a winner” there’s no sign fans want the slew of foreign imports to stop.​

​

Just look at the anger directed towards clubs who “didn’t make enough signings” in the transfer window. Where the FA can make most difference is in producing more and better coaches. 12,720 “A” Licence coaches in Spain and just 1,161 in England; 2,140 Spanish “Pro Licence” coaches and only 203 English ones.

It starts with the teachers. Instead of winning the World Cup by 2022 a nobler aim for the FA would be to produce, through its system, a Premier League-winning coach. There has never been one and Howard Wilkinson remains the only FA coach in 26 years to win an English title. Perhaps instead of continually looking at foreigners — either for solutions or scapegoat — the English could look in detail at what happens at home. England finished against Moldova with four Scousers on the pitch and that was without Wayne Rooney.​

If everywhere in the country produced as many top players as Merseyside and east London, World Cups would be a realistic aim — but what’s happening in a former great producer of players, Manchester? Only three Mancunians have appeared in this season’s Premier League.​

Dyke’s commission needs to hear not just from the famous but the unsung, such as Ray Hall, Barkley’s old academy director at Everton, and Andy Riedel, director of primary school football in Liverpool, who says the city’s tradition of talent production is under threat from well-meaning FA measures to stop competitive 11-a-side football for Under 12s.​

“The one thing I’m certain of is that there won’t be one single cause for our problem,” Dyke said. He was right, despite the “foreigners” rhetoric, about that.​

​

What Dyke wants to look at:

Greg Dyke says a failing England team are a ‘tanker which needs turning’ and wants to start by creating more opportunities for English players to play in the Premier League. He suggested his commission will look at the following areas:
QuotasOnly 32% of players starting in Premier League matches in 2012-13 were English and that proportion looks set to dwindle further, given 75% of Premier League transfer deals in the summer

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window involved foreign players. In his speech, Dyke mentioned quotas but he knows that even if he could get clubs to agree, employment law is against this. However, persuading the Premier League to beef up its ‘home-grown’ rule (currently, at least eight of a club’s squad of 25 players aged over 21 have to be home-trained) is a possibility.
Work permit systemDyke thinks too many of the foreign players in England are ‘average’ and these — not the Robin van Persies or Eden Hazards — are the problem that blocks opportunities for English talent. The FA administers the work permit system and may look at tightening controls. At present, 30% of players granted permits do not meet standard criteria and get in on appeals.
Loan systemDyke, below, raised the prospect of reviewing the loan system. Currently, Premier League clubs can take on loan no more than four players a season and can lend as many players as they like. While loans have proved a way for English players to gain experience they can also restrict opportunities when clubs ‘borrow’ a foreigner, rather than field a home-grown player. For example at Liverpool, the chances of first team football for England Under-21 left-back Jack Robinson decreased when the club borrowed Aly Cissokho from Valencia.
Mid-season breakHas long been on the wish-list of England managers who feel the gruelling domestic programme leaves players spent come end-of-season tournaments. But the Premier League and Football League (who run the Capital One Cup) are not going to vote to diminish their competitions so if this is something the FA really wants it might have to give up a round of the FA Cup.

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What Dyke should look at:

CoachingDeveloping players is the Premier League’s responsibility. Producing coaches is the FA’s and this is the area Dyke can most directly affect. At present, the numbers are damning. While Spain has 12,720 Uefa ‘A’ level coaches, and Germany 5,500, England has just 1,161. At Pro Licence level England has 203 coaches, Spain 2,140 and Germany more than 1,000. A look at the Premier League reveals England’s mediocre record of educating coaches. As many Premier League managers (six) took their Pro-Licence qualifications in Scotland as in England and they include bosses of three of the biggest clubs: David Moyes, Jose Mourinho, and Andre Villas-Boas.
FacilitiesLast year the FA voted to shake-up juvenile football and from 2014-15 it will be mandatory for Under-11s and Under-12s to play nine-a-side games. But despite grants from the Football Foundation, schools and boys’ clubs are reporting they are struggling to meet the cost of converting 11-a-side pitches and buying the smaller goals needed for these games. Changing age group football without providing the facilities for it suggests a lack of joined up thinking at the FA.

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[Bus-Conductor]

The bits in bold are for me at the heart of the problem. Instead of wittering on about "foreign players" what the FA should be concentrating on is improving the standards of coaching from every level.

 

[mpickard2087]

Coaching is definitely the No.1 area that needs to be looked at.

Bit off-topic, but the bit about Scousers producing the best players and how the rest of the country needs to meet their standards is actually showing part of the problem in the selection process of these youngsters in my experience. At school my team was a decent enough standard, and we usually did pretty well in the Schools National Cup, however the few times we made it really far and came up against the teams from Manchester or Merseyside, technically we more than held our own but they always seemed to be bigger, stronger, faster, just more developed (maybe they put something in the water up there that means they develop quicker!!) and that made the difference at the end of the day. And a school from that area nearly always won the cup and so I guess attract the attention of scouts etc, when its questionable whether they were technically superior to other teams they had knocked out.

 

[TorontoYid]

I don't think England can win anything unless the FA change their focus. At the moment they are more concerned with profit than results which seemed to come from where the clubs pressured the FA to pay players wages while on international duty. It doesn't matter to them how well they do as they will still sell the same number of shirts and fill stadiums.

Because of that the FA appoints yes men as manager who will select all the media favorites regardless of how well or badly they perform for club and country. As long as they are a media superstar they will get selected as they will sell shirts.

Also, when players were not paid to play for England, they took pride in their position. Now it is just another pay day. After the fiasco that was the last world cup, none of the players there should ever wear an England shirt again. Throwing tantrums because they can't go out and party after extremely poor performances on the pitch? What a hard life to be stuck in a 5 star hotel for a couple of weeks with golf, playstation, swimming pools etc..

Then Terry leading a revolt and poisoning the bench so all players are playing even worse then making himself look good by being the only one even trying? France had the right idea by rebuilding the team from the ground up but we continued with the same bunch of losers.

Anyone remember Terry Butcher having to keep changing shirts due to blood from a nasty cut? Can you honestly see the same passion or commitment from the superstars we have now? The only solution I see is to shake up the FA and completely revamp the team and manager.

 

[chinaman]

For about 35 years after winning the WC, a succession of managers, whether with the England team or with English clubs had to a man trotted out the very famous line: " we have nothing to learn from them " even after being defeated by their continental counterparts time after time. This explains how the British players have gone downhill all this while.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Coaching is definitely the No.1 area that needs to be looked at.

Bit off-topic, but the bit about Scousers producing the best players and how the rest of the country needs to meet their standards is actually showing part of the problem in the selection process of these youngsters in my experience. At school my team was a decent enough standard, and we usually did pretty well in the Schools National Cup, however the few times we made it really far and came up against the teams from Manchester or Merseyside, technically we more than held our own but they always seemed to be bigger, stronger, faster, just more developed (maybe they put something in the water up there that means they develop quicker!!) and that made the difference at the end of the day. And a school from that area nearly always won the cup and so I guess attract the attention of scouts etc, when its questionable whether they were technically superior to other teams they had knocked out.

This echoes my experiences too. Throughout the seventies/eighties strength and height seemed to be valued over technique by coaches generally.

 

[DFF]

This echoes my experiences too. Throughout the seventies/eighties strength and height seemed to be valued over technique by coaches generally.

This was my experience also. When i made it to County level, we were 14/15 and we had this big game against a team from Birmingham. Technique and possession-wise, we were much better. Physically, they were monsters. It was like something out of Space Jam.
Guess who the scouts were more interested in?

 

[beats1]

Arsenal scouts were obsessed with finding someone with the pace of Henry, Overmars or Viera and unfortunately I didnt fit with that

Also in England scouts always sign strikers we dont know how to assess talent, even now most players were strikers before they joined their club and got moved in to another role. Its mainly because scouts dont pay attention to good defending or passing but always pay attention to players who score goals

I also hate those predict the squad things for the world cup and that is part of the problem imo, as people said that shit with the golden generation but though right I wish they were wrong

 

[Bus-Conductor]

The low talent pool is BECAUSE of the low standard of coaching and that is what Dyke has ignored.

Clubs aren't buying foreign players for the fun of it. It's because those players are much better.

The aim should be to improve the quality of English players. Not to allow them spots in squads simply because they are English.

Spot on. And you said it before the post above.

 

[tiger666]

I was wondering something recently. I guess this is kind of on topic.

How do youngsters get a foothold in a club? What I mean is, I understand that there is a youth intake each year. How is it decided what kids to take? Do youth clubs in the local area put forward their brightest prospects and offer them? Do Spurs have scouts that specifically look at local youngsters and suggest them for a trial?

Just curious how footballers start out and get discovered.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I was wondering something recently. I guess this is kind of on topic.

How do youngsters get a foothold in a club? What I mean is, I understand that there is a youth intake each year. How is it decided what kids to take? Do youth clubs in the local area put forward their brightest prospects and offer them? Do Spurs have scouts that specifically look at local youngsters and suggest them for a trial?

Just curious how footballers start out and get discovered.

All clubs have a network of scouts, many junior level coaches act as kind of scouts too. A young kid will be watched and recommended to go and train with a club and each season will be evaluated ANC either retained or released.

 

[ILS]

All clubs have a network of scouts, many junior level coaches act as kind of scouts too. A young kid will be watched and recommended to go and train with a club and each season will be evaluated ANC either retained or released.

Most kids get scouted these days from the ages of 6 onwards. Scouts are all over the shop at 5 aside tournaments and matches etc.

My lad is 4 without sounding big headed is the stand out player at his little dribbles class. If a scout comes to me when he is 6 before he has had chance to enjoy football with his mate's I will not let him go, until he is ready. Too many parents love telling people, my sons at this club etc but I have seen it growing up only two players in my age group made it professionally and they were not the most talented but had good parents who didn't let anything go to their heads.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Most kids get scouted these days from the ages of 6 onwards. Scouts are all over the shop at 5 aside tournaments and matches etc.

My lad is 4 without sounding big headed is the stand out player at his little dribbles class. If a scout comes to me when he is 6 before he has had chance to enjoy football with his mate's I will not let him go, until he is ready. Too many parents love telling people, my sons at this club etc but I have seen it growing up only two players in my age group made it professionally and they were not the most talented but had good parents who didn't let anything go to their heads.

Yeah, my nephew is currently with a club, he was asked by just about every club in his catchment and there were others further away rumoured to be sniffing around. This started when he was about 9 of 10 I think. He's absolutely spurs bonkers and a great little player.

 

[mpickard2087]

Yes a lot of the scouts at clubs are junior coaches. My cousin does this for Luton. They do a lot of stuff at schools (I'm talking age level of like 5-9 here) such as half-term football courses and some schools have them go in one night every week to train the kids for an hour or so if their is enough demand. They just go from there then, the best kids they make a note of and get them training initially at the club and it goes from there. They are also watching a lot of the local clubs and the 5 and 7-a-side things that get run at weekends to see who shows ability. It really is very thorough process, even at such a young age and considering this is a club in the Conference level of football.

It is maybe a bit too much too soon though. Like ILS above, my nephew (7) has been doing well the last couple of years and has been invited to trials, but my brother would rather he just played with his friends at this age and just continues to enjoy playing and learning football.

 

[tiger666]

Yeah, my nephew is currently with a club, he was asked by just about every club in his catchment and there were others further away rumoured to be sniffing around. This started when he was about 9 of 10 I think. He's absolutely spurs bonkers and a great little player.

Can he play left back?

I jest, I jest..

 

[UncleBuck]

Yes a lot of the scouts at clubs are junior coaches. My cousin does this for Luton. They do a lot of stuff at schools (I'm talking age level of like 5-9 here) such as half-term football courses and some schools have them go in one night every week to train the kids for an hour or so if their is enough demand.

It is maybe a bit too much too soon though. Like ILS above, my nephew (7) has been doing well the last couple of years and has been invited to trials, but my brother would rather he just played with his friends at this age and just continues to enjoy playing and learning football.

our godson, who is 14, has been down there a couple of years. He also plays for two other teams local to him in Luton. Every weekend this summer he has had a tournament somewhere in the UK or Europe.
It's just mental, I thought the pressure put on youngsters 25 years ago was bad but its a totally different level now.
Every kid now see's the financial rewards involved in the game and thinks they'll be the next Ronaldo, i've heard them tell their parents how they'll buy Porsches and big houses for them!
The emergence of Sky all them years ago has ultimately created this problem and the subsequent creation of the EPL as the FA, and Mr Dyke, can say and do what they want but ultimately unless the EPL agree to the FA's recommendations then we'll be talking about the same situation in ten years time.