Harry's plans for the new season?

[Gassin's finest]

I'd be looking at making a strong showing in the CL Group Stages and retaining 4th place is the minimum requirement for next season if we are to genuinely become a contender. It will be seriously tough just to achieve this, so anything above that is a bonus in my eyes.

 

[mil1lion]

But Brett is making a fair point. What is the point of qualifying for it once:shrug:
If we finish two years running in CL position, players and clubs will begin to look at us as the type of club who could regularly finish in those places. Something, I suspect, they never did with Everton.

p.s. I did suggest about 2 years ago thatthe days when there were only ever the same 4 teams in the CL positions was probably coming to an end. We should prepare ourselves for the possibility that qualification for CL 3 years in the next 5 (for instance) should be seen as success and not failure - depending on what the tams around us do.

The only reason it is called the top 4 is because thats what qualifies for the Champions League. If only 3 teams made the Champions League it would be called the top 3. What's the point of qualifying for the Champions League qualifiers if we dont play proper Champions League football? If we failed to qualify, wouldn't potential signings say "well they may have finished 4th but they didn't even qualify last time". It defeats the whole purpose of finishing 4th in the first place.

4th is nothing without Champions League. It means we're the 4th best in England, that's all. Not 1st, 2nd or 3rd, but 4th. It's nothing to get excited about. Champions League on the other hand...

Like silver clothing? I don't think it would suit Huddlestone.

Exactly what I meant

 

[StartingPrice]

The only reason it is called the top 4 is because thats what qualifies for the Champions League. If only 3 teams made the Champions League it would be called the top 3. What's the point of qualifying for the Champions League qualifiers if we dont play proper Champions League football? If we failed to qualify, wouldn't potential signings say "well they may have finished 4th but they didn't even qualify last time". It defeats the whole purpose of finishing 4th in the first place.

4th is nothing without Champions League. It means we're the 4th best in England, that's all. Not 1st, 2nd or 3rd, but 4th. It's nothing to get excited about. Champions League on the other hand...

Obviously, but that is not what is being said. What is being said is that we could do reasonably well in the CL this year, but fail to qualify next, in which case it would be a pleasant little jaunt that left us pretty much where we began. If we failed to qualify for the group stages this year, but were guaranteed CL qualification next, it doesn't mean we would fail to qualify for group stages next. So, qualifying for CL two years running, and having a good run in the second year would leave us in a better position all-round than doing well this year and then zilch.

It is a hypothetical question: no-one is saying we actually want to fail to qualify for the group stages this year. Perhaps it should have been worded slightly more tightly to show that the options where as I have unravelled them above:shrug:

 

[midoNdefoe]

Don't think there is any evidence that United will be stronger...while quite a lot of evidence that they might be weaker.
Chelsea could be stronger...but they could be weaker.
The Goons ditto to Chelsea.
Think the best Liverpool can hope for this year is consolidation.

Whereas I am fully expecting us to push on again, and quite how much is an unknown. How much is a player like Bale going to come on for being a year older and stronger, with the second half of last season to give him confidence, the security of a new contract, the continuity of having 'Arry as boss for another year, and the same with knowing he is going to be working with players like Modders for the foreseeable? We are also in a better financial position than any of them except Chelsea, and maybe the Goons. There is less dissent between our fans and owners/managers with any of them - except maybe the Chavs (if the Goons get a bad start to the season/fail to challenge again, their fans will start turning on Whinger).

Really, allow yourself the unusual Yid luxury of actually feeling optiistic.

I think we are known as being over-optimistic, the luxury this time is people can understand our optimism...as its justified!

 

[StartingPrice]

I think we are known as being over-optimistic, the luxury this time is people can understand our optimism...as its justified!

Anyone who read the posts on here when this miserable bunch were saying 'We cannot finish 4th' even as we were lying 4th in the table omg will know what I'm getting at. And it's not the perception other clubs supporters have, and take the p*ss out of us for, that 'this year is gonna be our year'.

 

[midoNdefoe]

The only reason it is called the top 4 is because thats what qualifies for the Champions League. If only 3 teams made the Champions League it would be called the top 3. What's the point of qualifying for the Champions League qualifiers if we dont play proper Champions League football? If we failed to qualify, wouldn't potential signings say "well they may have finished 4th but they didn't even qualify last time". It defeats the whole purpose of finishing 4th in the first place.

4th is nothing without Champions League. It means we're the 4th best in England, that's all. Not 1st, 2nd or 3rd, but 4th. It's nothing to get excited about. Champions League on the other hand...

Exactly what I meant

Are you suggesting you would prefer to, for example, reach the CL semi's this season and finish 5th, over not getting past the qualifier but finishing in the top 4 and getting another stab at it next season...?

 

[brasil_spur]

I think we need to progress through the group stages this season, but i'd be happy with that and wouldn't expect us to go much further.

But 4th place or higher next season is a must.

I think we should be looking at a cup as well.

So overall i'd take: 4th in PL, Knocked out as last 16 in CL, Knocked out at Semi-Finals in FA Cup and Carling Cup Winners. For me that shows good progression without being too over the top next season.

 

[mil1lion]

Are you suggesting you would prefer to, for example, reach the CL semi's this season and finish 5th, over not getting past the qualifier but finishing in the top 4 and getting another stab at it next season...?

Thats exactly what i'm saying. Having another stab at it is basically a season wasted then.

 

[brett.spurs]

It's not though.

 

[mil1lion]

Obviously, but that is not what is being said. What is being said is that we could do reasonably well in the CL this year, but fail to qualify next, in which case it would be a pleasant little jaunt that left us pretty much where we began. If we failed to qualify for the group stages this year, but were guaranteed CL qualification next, it doesn't mean we would fail to qualify for group stages next. So, qualifying for CL two years running, and having a good run in the second year would leave us in a better position all-round than doing well this year and then zilch.

It is a hypothetical question: no-one is saying we actually want to fail to qualify for the group stages this year. Perhaps it should have been worded slightly more tightly to show that the options where as I have unravelled them above:shrug:

Thats what I dont get though. Finishing 4th is a waste if you dont get into the Champions League proper. If we fail to make the group stage, then by the time the season starts we're no better off than Liverpool or Man City even though we finished above them last season. We might aswell have finished 5th.

 

[midoNdefoe]

Thats exactly what i'm saying. Having another stab at it is basically a season wasted then.

Thats crazy talk?!

Not qualifying next season is more of a backwards step imo than getting far in it this season.
I think it is definately not a wasted season. To be taken seriously we need to cement ourselves in the top 4 as much as we can. A big push to get third spot and automatic qualification would be ideal for me regardless of any domestic or european cup runs.

 

[StartingPrice]

Thats exactly what i'm saying. Having another stab at it is basically a season wasted then.

But then next season would be wasted (bearing in mind the specific point you seem to be defending is doing well in CL and finishing 5th), AND we may lose our chance for the foreseeable to actually establish ourselves in that top bunch.

The argument we are making is that if we finsihed in the top 4 again this season (and did well in the CL), by the time next summer comes along higher level players would be looking at us and thinking "They finished in top 4 two seasons running, and put up a good show this year in CL...they could be an interesting prospect)"; whereas with the hypothesis you appear to be supporting, they coe next summer they would be more likely to be saying"Yeah, they did quite well in their one year in CL, but they haven't even qualified this year...it was probably just a flash-in-the-pan, like an upmarket Everton".

And I repeat, it is a hypothetical situation, no-one actually wants us to not qualify for CL proper this season.

 

[mil1lion]

It's not though.

Of course it is. What's the difference between 4th and 5th place in the League? Making the Champions League qualifier. So if we dont qualify for the Champions League then we haven't finished the job. Remember, we haven't qualified yet, we're a percentage of the way in. If we fall at the last hurdle then it would have all been for nothing, aside from a bit of extra money for finishing 4th (no Champs League money). That's hardly going to make a difference though.

1 season to make the Champions League group stage>2 seasons to make the Champions League group stage

Sorry but it's a no brainer.

 

[midoNdefoe]

Thats what I dont get though. Finishing 4th is a waste if you dont get into the Champions League proper. If we fail to make the group stage, then by the time the season starts we're no better off than Liverpool or Man City even though we finished above them last season. We might aswell have finished 5th.

I kinda understand where your coming from, but we are no better off than them at whatever stage we exit the competition, unless we win it...?

One good run in the champions league doesnt make you european giants, it takes consistent qualification, gradual gaining of experience and aquiring the standard of player comfortable at that level....imo of course.

 

[brett.spurs]

Option 1:

- Maybe acquire one or two "CL quality players"
- Qualify for CL proper
- Go out in the group stages
- Finish outside of the top 4
- Modric, Bale, Lennon, Gomes + new signings don't fancy playing in the Europa/not in Europe at all.

Option 2:

- Maybe acquire one or two "CL quality players"
- Lose the qualifier
- Finish in the top 4 ahead of two from Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, City
- Further establish ourselves as a top 4 club, not a one off.
- Said players stay as they want another crack at CL football and at a side capable of consistently finishing amongst the best in the country
- Win the CL qualifier
- Add another couple of "CL quality players" as we won't be seen as an "Everton"
- Compete in CL proper

Basically whether you want short term success over long term.

 

[mil1lion]

But then next season would be wasted (bearing inmind the specific point you seem to be defending is doing well in CL and finishing 5th), AND we may lose our chance for the foreseeable to actually establish ourselves in that top bunch.

The argument we aremaking is that if we finsihed in the top 4 again this season (and did well in the CL), by the time next summer comes along higher level players would be looking at us and thinking "They finished in top 4 two seasons running, and put up a good show this year in CL...they could be an interesting prospect)"; whereas with the hypothesis you appear to be supporting, they coe next summer they would be more likely to be saying"Yeah, they did quite well in their one year in CL, but they haven't even qualified this year...it was probably just a flash-in-the-pan, like an upmarket Everton".

And I repeat, it is a hypothetical situation, no-one actually wants us to not qualify for CL proper this season.

Nah we sign players now. We dont need to wait another year to take advantage of Champions League football. We qualify now and we turn heads now. If we finish 4th 2 seasons running but have only 1 season in the CL then it wont make a difference anyway. Then the season after next will start from scratch again.

Fuck it, lets just qualify now and win the League this season :grin:

 

[StartingPrice]

Nah we sign players now. We dont need to wait another year to take advantage of Champions League football. We qualify now and we turn heads now. If we finish 4th 2 seasons running but have only 1 season in the CL then it wont make a difference anyway. Then the season after next will start from scratch again.

Fuck it, lets just qualify now and win the League this season :grin:

I am a convert:grin:

I guess this is where we need a 'Del-Boy-Icon' to pop out of the corner of the text box saying ":wink: You know it makes sense":shrug:

 

[mil1lion]

Option 1:

- Maybe acquire one or two "CL quality players"
- Qualify for CL proper
- Go out in the group stages
- Finish outside of the top 4 Coming off a season of Champions League football
- Modric, Bale, Lennon, Gomes + new signings don't fancy playing in the Europa/not in Europe at all. Already tied down long term and already having played Champions League football.

Option 2:

- Maybe acquire one or two "CL quality players"
- Lose the qualifier
- Finish in the top 4 ahead of two from Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, City
- Further establish ourselves as a top 4 club, not a one off.
- Said players stay as they want another crack at CL football and at a side capable of consistently finishing amongst the best in the country Or they leave in the summer because they've already been there and failed to qualify, so they have less faith in us than they had before.
- Win the CL qualifier A year late
- Add another couple of "CL quality players" as we won't be seen as an "Everton" Not likely to add any more players than we would this summer.
- Compete in CL proper Finally

Basically whether you want short term success over long term.

Sorry but that is not realistic. Players are going to see us just the same if we finish 4th 2 seasons straight but qualify for the CL once, as they would if we finish 4th 1 season and qualify for the CL once. Now if we were to finish 1st or 2nd, it would make a difference.

4th place will still not attract the very best players anyway. So we might aswell qualify now and get those players in this summer. Then even if we dont finish top 4 this season, they'll have had that 1 year to settle in. If we sign that same player next summer then the following season they'll probably need a year to settle.

We'll attract the same level of player now as we would next summer (unless we finish top 3 at least).

 

[worcestersauce]

I'm with mil1lion on this and the reason is simple we haven't qualified for the CL yet we have only finished fourth which is bugger all, only by getting into the group stages and hopefully beyond will we have played in the CL, by only finishing 4th and failing to qualify we merely confirm that we are not a CL team and finishing 4th next season will mean nothing because people will know that we'll not actually play in the CL.
Finishing 4th twice does not confirm us as a consistant CL qualifier by any stretch of the imagination especially if we don't qualify, having a good run in the CL will establish us at least as a possible regular CL club in the eyes of players.

 

[StartingPrice]

I'm with mil1lion on this and the reason is simple we haven't qualified for the CL yet we have only finished fourth which is bugger all, only by getting into the group stages and hopefully beyond will we have played in the CL, by only finishing 4th and failing to qualify we merely confirm that we are not a CL team and finishing 4th next season will mean nothing because people will know that we'll not actually play in the CL.
Finishing 4th twice does not confirm us as a consistant CL qualifier by any stretch of the imagination especially if we don't qualify, having a good run in the CL will establish us at least as a possible regular CL club in the eyes of players.

But the argument is that if we finish 4th next year we will also do very well next year. So, we will have finished in the top 4 two years running and performed quite well in the second year. That has to be better that finishing outside the top 4 this year and not qualifying for CL next year, even if we had a good run in it this.