Harry's plans for the new season?

[Lilbaz]

We need to get into the group stages of the CL, this will give us £30m that can be used to improve the squad. If we fail to qualify we will get the usual £1m for the Europa.

Yes we need to get 4th again next season but what is easier winning 2 qualifying matches or a whole season. Liverpool under performed last year there is no guarantee they will this year. Man City have invested heavily, we only finished a few points ahead of Villa and if it wasn't for Evertons dreadful start last season they would have finished above us. Like it or not, this may be our only stab at the CL so we have to make it count.

 

[mil1lion]

4th without Champions League is no better than 5th or even 6th. Lets not exagerate what 4th place on its own is. There is only 1 reason we all want 4th place and that is to play Champions League football. When we finished 5th for the 2nd season straight it didn't make a real difference to us as a club. We didn't suddenly start signing players the 2nd time we finished 5th that we couldn't sign the 1st time we finished 5th.

At the end of the day we'll have played 2 seasons in both scenarios, and spent 1 season in the CL. All i'm saying is, last seasons 4th place will have meant nothing if we dont play in the Champions League. If you take Champions League out of the equation then there is no difference between 4th or 5th place. Would it matter if we finished 4th for 5 seasons straight but never played in the Champions League? 4th on its own is not worth getting excited about imo.

I would sacrifice CL football this season for a Title challenge though.

 

[StartingPrice]

We need to get into the group stages of the CL, this will give us £30m that can be used to improve the squad. If we fail to qualify we will get the usual £1m for the Europa.

Yes we need to get 4th again next season but what is easier winning 2 qualifying matches or a whole season. Liverpool under performed last year there is no guarantee they will this year. Man City have invested heavily, we only finished a few points ahead of Villa and if it wasn't for Evertons dreadful start last season they would have finished above us. Like it or not, this may be our only stab at the CL so we have to make it count.

You obviously haven't understood the nature of the debate (or maybe you haven't actually read the whole thread:grin. It is a hypothetical question and part of the option which includes us not getting past qualifier this year is that we will absolutely 100% without dout no chance of failure finish 4th this year AND have a good run in CL next year.

But Mill it would, that is the whole point, we would finish 4th twice and that would be on the record. If this option is followed, finishing 4th again and performing well in Cl next year may be the springboard to regular qualifcation, and if, in 5 years time, we have qualified for CL five years running, no one is gonna give a monkey's chuff that the first year we didn't get past first base.
To take the alternative, that you are arguing, failure to finish in the top 4 this year, and thereby qualify for CL, would allow someone to take that place we miss out on, and get stronger. It would allow the Goons to strengthen, as they are now not so handicapped by the Scumeriates; it would allow Citeh to strngthen immensely, with a team that has had a season to gel and even more super-duper players; Liverpool will have had a season to consolidate. Us, we would be seen as just a flashin the pan, like Everton.

It's a no-brainer, really:shrug:

 

[mil1lion]

It's not about what 4th place is it's what 4th place represents. Nobody would give a shit if we finished 4th or 5th if it wasn't for the Champions League. People talk about the target being to finish in the top 4 on consecutive seasons. It's not. It's playing regular Champions League football. There's a difference. What did Man City gain from 5th place that Aston Villa didn't with 6th? A little bit more money that wont make much difference. If Spurs dont make the CL then what will we have gained that either of those 2 haven't?

The difference between the 2 scenarios is that it would take 76 league games to qualify for the CL rather than 38. So lets say we dont qualify but finish 4th, it means we'll play CL for the first time next season. If we do qualify however, even if we dont finish 4th this season, we've still played our 1st season of CL football this season. The only thing the 1st one does is delay the benefit of 4th by 1 year. What's the point in finishing 4th if we end up with the exact same benefit (ie no CL football) as 5th, 6th or even 7th place?

1st level - Chelsea and Man Utd (titles and cups)
2nd level - Arsenal and Liverpool (regular CL football)
3rd level - Tottenham (one off CL footy)

Whichever way you look at it, we're still on the same level for both scenarios. The difference is that we're doing it now rather than wait another year. You mention Everton, but they didn't play CL football. That's the point. 4th place is worthless without CL football.

If we dont qualify for the CL season this season, other fans will rip us to shit. Even if we finish 4th again this season but do qualify, they'll turn around and say "well you should've qualified last season though" and they'll be right. A season wasted. The scenario I support will not be wasted though because even if we dont make 4th, we've still gained a season of CL football and reaped the benefits of it.

I see no reason why we would want to repeat last season this season. Because that's effectively what we're saying. Drop the benefit of 4th place this season and take it next season instead. We wont gain anything this season without CL football. We'll just spend another season doing what we did last season, only this time it'll probably be harder work. Maybe we finish 7th this season after playing CL, and City finish 4th this season. Next season they'll be in the same situation that we were this season, playing their first ever CL season. We'll be ahead of them. Been there done that City, shove that up your arse.

 

[lukespurs7]

TRANSFERS:
IMPERITIVE to try and attract a WORLD CLASS STRIKER any of the following:Forlan,Fabiano,Hunterlaar,Dzeko. Someone who isn't far off Rooney,Drogba,Torres etc who can win us games on their own. thats n.o1.

n.o2 is to keep all our best players i.e Modric,Lennon etc etc and get them on new contracts which we have pretty much done. Therefore keeping a settled squad.

n.o3 sign a world class CB IMO,King's fitness is too unreliable as is Woodgates so get a WORLD CLASS CB in,and possibly Joe.Cole.
SEASON:
n.o1-Get into the CL proper(group stages and possibly get out of there)
n.o2-get top4 again yes it will be very difficult as Liverpool will stronger as will City so it would be an even bigger achievement that last year but still definately doable, IMO if we make a few signings world class ones we'll not be far off Man.U and Chelsea.(why not be positive we have a damn good squad and strength in depth in every position,just lack a few world class players)
n.o3-get to a cup final.
n.o4-PROBABLY can also be n.o1 improve on the points we got in the league last year but at least 5,progression is always the aim.

To be fair we may go out of the CL in the qualifier not get to a cup final and finish say 7th but then again if we do well and players stay fit and on form we are just as likely to get through the group stages in the CL,get to a cup final and come 3rd this season if we are lucky,so who knows but after last seasons epic achievement I'm pretty happy right now whatever and we'll play good footy and score goals for sure.

 

[KentuckyYid]

Surely at the start of every season it's every managers job to target winning the league and every cup possible?

I would think anything less than a top 4 position, and a decent run in all the cups (winning at least one of the major ones) would be viewed as a disappointment by everybody connected with the club.

 

[SpurSince57]

Quite.

 

[StartingPrice]

It's not about what 4th place is it's what 4th place represents. Nobody would give a shit if we finished 4th or 5th if it wasn't for the Champions League. People talk about the target being to finish in the top 4 on consecutive seasons. It's not. It's playing regular Champions League football. There's a difference. What did Man City gain from 5th place that Aston Villa didn't with 6th? A little bit more money that wont make much difference. If Spurs dont make the CL then what will we have gained that either of those 2 haven't?

The difference between the 2 scenarios is that it would take 76 league games to qualify for the CL rather than 38. So lets say we dont qualify but finish 4th, it means we'll play CL for the first time next season. If we do qualify however, even if we dont finish 4th this season, we've still played our 1st season of CL football this season. The only thing the 1st one does is delay the benefit of 4th by 1 year. What's the point in finishing 4th if we end up with the exact same benefit (ie no CL football) as 5th, 6th or even 7th place?

1st level - Chelsea and Man Utd (titles and cups)
2nd level - Arsenal and Liverpool (regular CL football)
3rd level - Tottenham (one off CL footy)

Whichever way you look at it, we're still on the same level for both scenarios. The difference is that we're doing it now rather than wait another year. You mention Everton, but they didn't play CL football. That's the point. 4th place is worthless without CL football.

If we dont qualify for the CL season this season, other fans will rip us to shit. Even if we finish 4th again this season but do qualify, they'll turn around and say "well you should've qualified last season though" and they'll be right. A season wasted. The scenario I support will not be wasted though because even if we dont make 4th, we've still gained a season of CL football and reaped the benefits of it.

I see no reason why we would want to repeat last season this season. Because that's effectively what we're saying. Drop the benefit of 4th place this season and take it next season instead. We wont gain anything this season without CL football. We'll just spend another season doing what we did last season, only this time it'll probably be harder work. Maybe we finish 7th this season after playing CL, and City finish 4th this season. Next season they'll be in the same situation that we were this season, playing their first ever CL season. We'll be ahead of them. Been there done that City, shove that up your arse.

I've read your arguments and understand them fully, Mill...you just don't seem to be taking on board what anyone else is saying.

It is a hypothetical exercise.
As part of this hypothetical exercise we are assuming that we go out of the qualifying round of CL now, but finish 4th, and then do well in the CL.
Do you recognise that finishing 4th two years running, and doing well in the CL in the second year is the first part of the exercise?
And do you recognise that the second part of the hypothesis is that we dowell in the CL this year but fail to qualify for it next year?
Because if you do, then you have to assume that if you opt for the second you are really saying we should be put back to where we were last year in two years time. Only by that time our rivals will have probably stolen a march on us.
If you take the former, however, I understand that you feel we wouldn't actually be competing in the CL until next year, and that, therefore, finishing 4th last year would have been meaningless as it is only the CL qualification that gives it any meaning. But, in reality, we would be in a far better position, that if we didn't qualify at all next year. Whereas if you take the miss-out on qual but finish 4th this year route, no-one would really givea damn if we didn't actually get past the qualfying round this year in 3 or 4 years time, as we would have been qualifying for the CL consistently and doing well in it. And that is what we are saying...we would be in a better position overall. Nothing more, nothing less. Failing to get past the group qualifying round this year but being gauranteed a top 4 finish AND a good run in the CL next year would put us in a better position overall...even if you wld feel a bit disapponted at having to wait a year to see a good display in the CL. To take your route might mean seeing a good display this year, but we may never get another, or have to wait a few years.

 

[EmperorKabir]

i'd take just 4th and start attracting some quality players. (apparently doing it once seems not enough so far this summer...)

 

[mil1lion]

I've read your arguments and understand them fully, Mill...you just don't seem to be taking on board what anyone else is saying.

It is a hypothetical exercise.
As part of this hypothetical exercise we are assuming that we go out of the qualifying round of CL now, but finish 4th, and then do well in the CL.
Do you recognise that finishing 4th two years running, and doing well in the CL in the second year is the first part of the exercise?
And do you recognise that the second part of the hypothesis is that we dowell in the CL this year but fail to qualify for it next year?
Because if you do, then you have to assume that if you opt for the second you are really saying we should be put back to where we were last year in two years time. Only by that time our rivals will have probably stolen a march on us.
If you take the former, however, I understand that you feel we wouldn't actually be competing in the CL until next year, and that, therefore, finishing 4th last year would have been meaningless as it is only the CL qualification that gives it any meaning. But, in reality, we would be in a far better position, that if we didn't qualify at all next year. Whereas if you take the miss-out on qual but finish 4th this year route, no-one would really givea damn if we didn't actually get past the qualfying round this year in 3 or 4 years time, as we would have been qualifying for the CL consistently and doing well in it. And that is what we are saying...we would be in a better position overall. Nothing more, nothing less. Failing to get past the group qualifying round this year but being gauranteed a top 4 finish AND a good run in the CL next year would put us in a better position overall...even if you wld feel a bit disapponted at having to wait a year to see a good display in the CL. To take your route might mean seeing a good display this year, but we may never get another, or have to wait a few years.

Well I dont know where this good run in the CL next season comes from. The question was whether we'd take not qualifying for CL this season for a guaranteed 4th place finish again this season. Thats all the question was. Nothing about doing better in the CL next season as a result

So here's a question then, would you take being knocked out of the CL in the qualifier if it meant a guaranteed 4th place at the end of the season? I'd be tempted.

I'm sure the main targets are Group stage and challenging, top four and a cup run.

There's a reason why at the end of the season, teams play out shit results. Its because they have nothing to play for. Nobody battles out for positions, but what that position gets them. So teams battle for the title, automatic CL places, a crack at the CL qualifier, the Europa League. So the reason we battled last season to finish 4th was not because we really love the number 4. It's because that's the next level up, a crack at CL football. Without CL football 4th place is no better than a Europa League place.

All i'm saying really is that the job is not done yet. We finished 4th in order to get into the CL qualifier, and if we fail in that then we'll have lost all our benefits of 4th place (minus a bit of money that lets face it, City would piss over).

Would I take losing out on the CL this season if we finish 4th this season and then have a better run in the CL than we would've had this season. Probably, but thats a really complicated question. I'm happy to have CL this season so we're a step ahead of teams who haven't had CL before.

Would I take no CL qualification this season for CL football in the next 2 seasons? Definitely. Because that's the next level. Consecutive Champions League football.

 

[StartingPrice]

Well I dont know where this good run in the CL next season comes from. The question was whether we'd take not qualifying for CL this season for a guaranteed 4th place finish again this season. Thats all the question was. Nothing about doing better in the CL next season as a result

Yeah, you're right I probably made that bit up...to tempt you out of your doctrinal purity:grin:

Dunno, that is how I took this strictly hypothetical question, and on those grounds I think it is the better option, but as I said, no-one actually wants it to happen, it is just IMHO the best of two very restricted (and not particularly great) scenarios. I have expressed my feeling about the forthcoming campaign many times on SC = We are gonna win

EVERYTHNG
:beer:​

 

[Lilbaz]

You obviously haven't understood the nature of the debate (or maybe you haven't actually read the whole thread:grin. It is a hypothetical question and part of the option which includes us not getting past qualifier this year is that we will absolutely 100% without dout no chance of failure finish 4th this year AND have a good run in CL next year.

But Mill it would, that is the whole point, we would finish 4th twice and that would be on the record. If this option is followed, finishing 4th again and performing well in Cl next year may be the springboard to regular qualifcation, and if, in 5 years time, we have qualified for CL five years running, no one is gonna give a monkey's chuff that the first year we didn't get past first base.
To take the alternative, that you are arguing, failure to finish in the top 4 this year, and thereby qualify for CL, would allow someone to take that place we miss out on, and get stronger. It would allow the Goons to strengthen, as they are now not so handicapped by the Scumeriates; it would allow Citeh to strngthen immensely, with a team that has had a season to gel and even more super-duper players; Liverpool will have had a season to consolidate. Us, we would be seen as just a flashin the pan, like Everton.

It's a no-brainer, really:shrug:

Sorry got confused as I started this thread asking what Harry's targets would be for next season :razz:

Would rather have a good run in the CL this season than the chance of not qualifying both this and next.

1 in the bush is worth two in the hand.

 

[brasil_spur]

Surely at the start of every season it's every managers job to target winning the league and every cup possible?

Of course not. Do you think a club like West Brom is thinking of winning things next season?!?!? They'd be mad.

Different clubs have different priorities, for some it will be survival or a top half finish, for other cups and glory.

 

[Lilbaz]

But every team should go out and try to win each game they play. Even if that is by parking the bus and hitting on the break.

 

[SpurSince57]

Of course not. Do you think a club like West Brom is thinking of winning things next season?!?!? They'd be mad.

Different clubs have different priorities, for some it will be survival or a top half finish, for other cups and glory.

Yes, but isn't this stating the crashingly obvious?

 

[KentuckyYid]

Show me a club with a defeatist attitude that winning something is out of their grasp and I'll show you a club who'll never win or achieve anything.

It's about doing your best with the squad you got and setting out to win using your strengths be it silky skills on the ground or doing it ugly. If WBA won the league with 10 behind the ball all the time and kicking the crap out of everybody then so be it.

 

[StartingPrice]

Sorry got confused as I started this thread asking what Harry's targets would be for next season :razz:

Would rather have a good run in the CL this season than the chance of not qualifying both this and next.

1 in the bush is worth two in the hand.

:think: :doh:

Yeah, what I mean is we have gone off on this tangent discussing a hypothetical question and you don't seem to be debating within that question:grin:

Anyway, as I keep on saying, this is a hypothetical question. In the real World, we will win

EVERYTHING
:beer:​

 

[worcestersauce]

:think: :doh:

Yeah, what I mean is we have gone off on this tangent discussing a hypothetical question and you don't seem to be debating within that question:grin::beer:

The post that sent us off on the tangent said:
"So here's a question then, would you take being knocked out of the CL in the qualifier if it meant a guaranteed 4th place at the end of the season? I'd be tempted".

Which is giving up a chance of CL football this year for no guarantee of CL football next year, if it had said "if it meant a guaranteed good run in the CL next year" that might be different although I'd be too gutted by losing the qualifier to even agree with that I think.

Personally I still think we finished the season a far better side than we started it and so we have the opportunity of doing even better this coming year and I think Harry will have that aim.

 

[StartingPrice]

The post that sent us off on the tangent said:
"So here's a question then, would you take being knocked out of the CL in the qualifier if it meant a guaranteed 4th place at the end of the season? I'd be tempted".

Which is giving up a chance of CL football this year for no guarantee of CL football next year, if it had said "if it meant a guaranteed good run in the CL next year" that might be different although I'd be too gutted by losing the qualifier to even agree with that I think.

Personally I still think we finished the season a far better side than we started it and so we have the opportunity of doing even better this coming year and I think Harry will have that aim.

Yeah, blame SP, why don't ya...why is it always my fault:razz:

 

[worcestersauce]

So here's a question then, would you take being knocked out of the CL in the qualifier if it meant a guaranteed 4th place at the end of the season? I'd be tempted.

I'm sure the main targets are Group stage and challenging, top four and a cup run.

I wouldn't blame you SP I thought it was this one actually.