Hillsborough - it could have been us!!

[Chapel Hill Hotspur]

I am so sorry I forgot that you cannot say anything deregatory about the loveable salt of the earth Liverpudlians in this day and age. My mistake.

Just ask the corpses at Heysel how great Liverpool fans are and they'd say the same!

 

[Chapel Hill Hotspur]

Likewise you could say the English were partly to blame for the Nazi's killing millions of Jews (because we invented the concentration camp and demonstrated the first example of persecuting them under Edward). That 1% you talk about (which isn't statistically verified so don't know how you come to that conclusion and I'd be interested to see how the other 99% of the breakdown works out) isn't worthy of inclusion in the argument.

That, incident, regardless of the background of the fans, could have happened to any fans from any club (which was explained in the op). If you do some research into the issue and history of football and how all fans conducted themselves prior to this event (hence why so much changed) you will understand. Have you ever seen Tottenham's highest attendance?

But reading some of these opinions isn't a surprise, because wherever you go, you have people who are too wrapped up in their own opinion and views and conspiracy theories to really grasp what the underlying problem is.

Personally I'm more shocked by the behaviour of the gvt, the police, the FA, the press and why this has taken so long to come out and why the apologies only came out once this was 'proven'. This is what is wrong with this Country and people who then look to insignificant issues instead only compound things like this to happen again (so perhaps I am saying you are 0.01% to blame for this).

I honestly don't know how to respond to that.

Anyway, I stand by my statement. Someone said that the Liverpool supporters are 100% innocent, and I don't believe that's true. We can argue it back and forth, but I truly don't think you can 100% say that they are faultless in what happened.

 

[base615]

I've read the summary of the report and these are my observations based on that report.

It is clear that the police tried to portray themselves in a positive light and that in hindsight, mistakes were made. There is no excuse for the concealing of information but it is also important to remember that the Police were reacting to a situation caused by the unruly behavior of the Liverpool fans outside the ground and the decisions were made to save lives.

The fans that lost their lives that day are undoubtedly the victims and it was an absolute tragedy. The fans outside the ground who could not wait to get in in an orderly fashion are undoubtedly the perpetrators. The Police only did what they thought was right at the time. How they behaved afterwards leaves a lot to be desired.

In answer to your points:

So what, didn't both teams have a similar allocation?
Well, if you’d read the reports as you are claiming you would know that they didn’t have similar allocations. For ease of crowd control, the police had allocated the Lepping Lane end to Liverpool despite protests from LFC. That ensured they had an allocation more than 4000 less than Forest’s despite having a larger following at away games. In addition there was less terracing (and therefore cheaper tickets) at that end. In addition the end allocated to Liverpool had 23 aging turnstiles that were not very efficient as opposed to the 60 modern turnstiles allocated to Forest.


So they will be late then.
Again, if you’d read the report you’d know that traffic lights at an intersection had failed causing major traffic issues and all the Liverpool supporters’ coaches had been delayed as a result.

A mistake, but the only consequence should have been that some people missed the start of the game.
I’ll accept that


The reputation of the fans went before them and the police were focusing on crowd disturbances rather than crowd safety, this is a direct consequence of previous behavior by the Liverpool fans.
Of course there were bad reputations at play but in that case that doesn’t explain the fact that there were not enough police stationed outside the ground to direct fans. Surely they would station the correct amount and the report confirmed that the policing level outside the ground was inadequate and not supplied with a sufficient number of personal radios.

The police were trying to save lives. There is a basic rule in life that is if someone is standing in front of you, don't push them, wait until they move and then step in to the space vacated by them. If the Liverpool fans outside the ground followed this simple courtesy the situation would not have happened. End of!
The police were trying to save lives by opening the gate. The issue is that when opening the gate they did not take the correct precautions by closing off the tunnel. In fact the police commander David Duckenfield was heard to say “Don’t worry, the fans will find their own level”


Yes, a direct consequence of the behavior of the fans outside.
No. It was as a direct consequence of not closing off the tunnel as they had the year before. This was in direct contradiction with their standard operating procedures for events at Hillsborough and a consequence of the usual commander being replaced with a commander that had never policed a football match.

Well, the gates were opened in an emergency
That does not mean that the tunnel couldn’t be closed off.

Yes, a direct consequence of the behavior of the fans outside.
No. This was as a direct consequence of not closing off the tunnel.

So there was a rush of Liverpool fans.
Correct, a natural reaction when you hear a big cheer and you’re trying to see what happened.

Yes that's right the crowd surged forward by giving the person in front a 'slight' nudge

Correct, a natural reaction when you hear a big cheer and you’re trying to see what happened.

The police were focusing on crowd disturbances rather than crowd safety, this is a direct consequence of previous behavior by the Liverpool fans.
The police failed in their duty to protect people because they focused on crowd disturbances rather than the facts in front of them.

or the crowd showing any self control
Nope, in a crowd of 50,000 people the police are there to maintain that control

But there was already the risk of death to fans outside the ground so they had to let the fans in to try to save lives.
And therefore failed to follow their procedures for closing off the tunnel.

The police were focusing on crowd disturbances rather than crowd safety, this is a direct consequence of previous behavior by the Liverpool fans.
The police failed in their duty to protect people because they focused on crowd disturbances rather than the facts in front of them.

some people who have received their information first hand may choose to call them facts
Even the police have apologised and confirmed that it is complete bollocks. A judicial inquiry, a further judicial review of that inquiry and an independent panel have all held up that these “facts” are actually anything but

 

[Nocando]

I honestly don't know how to respond to that.

Anyway, I stand by my statement. Someone said that the Liverpool supporters are 100% innocent, and I don't believe that's true. We can argue it back and forth, but I truly don't think you can 100% say that they are faultless in what happened.

As I said it's not worth debating. You've obviously got an abstract viewpoint, which at a guess probably has more to do with your dislike of Liverpool and it's fans, than the bearing or relevance to the situation.

Who gives a flying duck whether they are saints or not, I don't know what any of that has to do with anything. To paraphrase you, you're debating 1% of something when the 1% means sod all in the context. But by all means if you have an agenda and want to debate that, then be my guest....

 

[tototoner]

Why let a good prejudice view get in the way of the facts

Hillsborough was a football tragedy not just a Liverpool tragedy

 

[spud]

In answer to your points:......

Nice work, base615. You've clearly got more patience than me.

 

[Matthew Wyatt]

Spud, Base and others I congratulate you on your comments in this thread which you've articulated very well and at all times stuck to the facts as agreed upon in the inquiries.

As for the others I just wonder what the agenda is - in one case it's only confirmed to the rest of you what I already knew - but taking the facts from the inquiries and all the circumstances at the time AND then considering what might have been in '81 (keep the gates to the pitch closed, pens - you have Hillsborough 8 years early) I'm staggered at the ignorance displayed.

Agreed, and must commend spud, base et al on their patience too.

 

[tototoner]

BBC - Hillsborough inquests: David Duckenfield admits causing 96 deaths

The Hillsborough police match commander has agreed that his failure to close a tunnel "was the direct cause of the deaths of 96 people".

Not much more needs said than that, will he now be prosecuted ?

 

[pook]

I'm amazed by the silence of so many other members on this topic. Posters with thousands and thousands of views on other more trivial topics but nothing on this subject

Either they are staggered by some views in here and feel it not worthy of response or they also hold some very worrying opinions and prejudices/ignorance/stupidity

or maybe some folks just avoid weighing in on it based on the fact that no matter how calmly, respectfully, and rationally one presents his opinions, there's a roughly 100% chance that someone of a differing perspective is going to imply that you're a prejudiced twat.

and now it appears that even silence is no defense against it.

nice.

 

[UncleBuck]

BBC - Hillsborough inquests: David Duckenfield admits causing 96 deaths

The Hillsborough police match commander has agreed that his failure to close a tunnel "was the direct cause of the deaths of 96 people".

Not much more needs said than that, will he now be prosecuted ?

No he shouldn't be held personally responsible, it's the force that should be held accountable for putting him into that scenario without knowledge of the surroundings in the first place, coupled with the zero experience Duckenfield had as an Ops Commander.
Talk about hung out to dry....

 

[yido_number1]

or maybe some folks just avoid weighing in on it based on the fact that no matter how calmly, respectfully, and rationally one presents his opinions, there's a roughly 100% chance that someone of a differing perspective is going to imply that you're a prejudiced twat.

and now it appears that even silence is no defense against it.

nice.

I don't know enough of the facts to make a comment about it. Clearly something went very wrong that day and it seems its all now really coming to light. Thanks to people that have posted up the facts and argued cases it is interesting to hear all the different perspectives and form an opinion.

 

[WalkerboyUK]

Duckenfield has been made the scapegoat, no two ways about it.
What about the hundreds/thousands of Liverpool fans who turned up without tickets?
They were forcing their way towards the gate, desperate to get in. No doubt in my mind that if the gate hadn't been opened there would have been similar problems outside.
Of course, Liverpool fans are always the victim, never the cause.

People seem to forget that 50+ people died at Valley Parade 30 years ago, but you don't see the families still looking for someone to blame.

 

[southlondonyiddo]

Duckenfield has been made the scapegoat, no two ways about it.
What about the hundreds/thousands of Liverpool fans who turned up without tickets?
They were forcing their way towards the gate, desperate to get in. No doubt in my mind that if the gate hadn't been opened there would have been similar problems outside.
Of course, Liverpool fans are always the victim, never the cause.

People seem to forget that 50+ people died at Valley Parade 30 years ago, but you don't see the families still looking for someone to blame.

Haha

Yeah 26 years later after having told lie after lie after lie David Duckenfield has been made a scapegoat. Unbelievable

 

[WalkerboyUK]

Haha

Yeah 26 years later after having told lie after lie after lie David Duckenfield has been made a scapegoat. Unbelievable

I'm not arguing that he's lied - I'm saying that thousands of Liverpool fans turned up without tickets, and put so much pressure on the police that a gate was opened by Duckenfield. They are just as guilty of manslaughter as anyone else!
Duckenfield opened the gate, thinking it would ease the congestion. Unfortunately he had not been fully briefed on the layout of the stadium or the surroundings.

 

[jimmyn16]

I'm not arguing that he's lied - I'm saying that thousands of Liverpool fans turned up without tickets, and put so much pressure on the police that a gate was opened by Duckenfield. They are just as guilty of manslaughter as anyone else!
Duckenfield opened the gate, thinking it would ease the congestion. Unfortunately he had not been fully briefed on the layout of the stadium or the surroundings.

From the Health and Safety Executive report to the Hillsborough Independent Panel:

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/main-section/part-2/chapter-6/page-7/

2.6.106 The HSE estimated that on the day of the disaster 1,576 people entered pen 3. This was approximately double the maximum safe capacity.[61] The HSE found no evidence that this was due to fans without tickets entering the ground. It calculated that the highest number of entrants, either through the turnstiles or Gate C, was 10,124, just 24 over the designated capacity of the Leppings Lane terrace.[62]

 

[WalkerboyUK]

2.6.105 The HSE also found that had the central pens, 3 and 4, conformed to the Green Guide, their maximum capacities would have been 1,015 and 1,036 respectively. As they did not conform, their maximum safe capacities should have been 822 (pen 3) and 872 (pen 4). Yet the safety certificate allowed 1,200 (pen 3) and 1,000 (pen 4).

So Duckenfield is responsible for the safety certificate being wrong, and allowing more people in that it was safe to hold??
Ultimately it was a combination of errors, from the ground not actually being safe enough to hold that number of fans, to a gate being opened to allow more people in. The blame is not to be shouldered by just one man!!
Could they have delayed kick-off to get everyone in?! Yes, but if there were more people than it was safe to hold, the same thing would have happened.

 

[Borks]

I know very little about Hillsborough but the simple fact is that if only fans with tickets turned up there would have been no crush. I'm not laying the blame with anyone or trying to take the responsibility away from the police but to say Liverpool fans are entirely blameless can't be true.

 

[southlondonyiddo]

I'm not arguing that he's lied - I'm saying that thousands of Liverpool fans turned up without tickets, and put so much pressure on the police that a gate was opened by Duckenfield. They are just as guilty of manslaughter as anyone else!
Duckenfield opened the gate, thinking it would ease the congestion. Unfortunately he had not been fully briefed on the layout of the stadium or the surroundings.

If the Liverpool fans were as much to blame as anyone else can you tell me why there was such a monumental cover up by the police and establisment for over 20 years?

 

[Dougal]

Has Duckenfield taken the blame for 1981 aswell?

 

[benski]

FU police, wouldn't trust any of them it's an institution built on lies and corruption so of course they tried to cover it up it's their job! Not saying scousers were blameless but it's naive to believe anything that comes from the police that isnt about self preservation. Assholes all of them