Hillsborough - it could have been us!!

[UpTownSpur]

I honestly don't know how to respond to that.

Anyway, I stand by my statement. Someone said that the Liverpool supporters are 100% innocent, and I don't believe that's true. We can argue it back and forth, but I truly don't think you can 100% say that they are faultless in what happened.

I can only assume you never went to a football match in the 1980's. Fans were treated like animals. I used to stand on the Shelf and every big game at Spurs saw the same spectacle. The Park Lane was divided into pens, each one fenced off from the other with just a gate at the top. They would usually open the half the stand at the beginning and the away fans would enter though the corner at the West Stand. And you could see it filling up and they'd wait till all the pens were completely full - overly full - and fans were singing "Open up the fucking gate!" And they would eventually would with bodies pressed up against the fences and fans would come streaming through the small gap and whole sequence would repeat over again and all the while more fans were coming from the same single entrance. Absolutely no consideration was given to the fans safety and the Park Lane at White Hart Lane could easily have been another Hillsborough.

 

[montylynch]

It will always be a touchy subject to opinionate on, we all have a views on liverpool supporters, we've all heard stories on how they behave, some of us may have even encountered them over the years. I know I have and it wasn't pleasant.

Bear in mind though this was almost 30 years ago, when hooliganism was at it's fiercest. it was years before CCTV, Police spotters etc. Liverpool fans were hated across europe as their reputation proceeded them, They would happily rob anything they could to fund their trip abroad. So when you are expecting 1000's of liverpool supporters to turn up, I'm sorry but you're inevitably expecting trouble of the highest degree.

There is evidence that proves that Pubs, Clubs, supermarkets and off licences in the area of Hillsborough were drunk (and robbed) dry well before KO, there is also evidence to show that fans were in these pubs right up until 2.45-2.55. Some 5 minutes before scheduled KO.

There are probably many many stories from fans that will never ever get heard, some of which may be true, some of which may be embellished to protect them or others, some of them could be complete bullshit. It's a tragedy we'll probably never get to hear the 100% truth about, but it will take an awful lot to convince me that the liverpool fans played no part in it unfolding.

 

[Dougal]

FU police, wouldn't trust any of them it's an institution built on lies and corruption so of course they tried to cover it up it's their job! Not saying scousers were blameless but it's naive to believe anything that comes from the police that isnt about self preservation. Assholes all of them

Chill Dre.

 

[talkshowhost86]

It will always be a touchy subject to opinionate on, we all have a views on liverpool supporters, we've all heard stories on how they behave, some of us may have even encountered them over the years. I know I have and it wasn't pleasant.

Bear in mind though this was almost 30 years ago, when hooliganism was at it's fiercest. it was years before CCTV, Police spotters etc. Liverpool fans were hated across europe as their reputation proceeded them, They would happily rob anything they could to fund their trip abroad. So when you are expecting 1000's of liverpool supporters to turn up, I'm sorry but you're inevitably expecting trouble of the highest degree.

There is evidence that proves that Pubs, Clubs, supermarkets and off licences in the area of Hillsborough were drunk (and robbed) dry well before KO, there is also evidence to show that fans were in these pubs right up until 2.45-2.55. Some 5 minutes before scheduled KO.

There are probably many many stories from fans that will never ever get heard, some of which may be true, some of which may be embellished to protect them or others, some of them could be complete bullshit. It's a tragedy we'll probably never get to hear the 100% truth about, but it will take an awful lot to convince me that the liverpool fans played no part in it unfolding.

I don't think anyone has really said they had no part in it unfolding, but it is clear that there has been a huge cover-up orchestrated from a very high level, and you wouldn't get that if there weren't other people involved other than the fans themselves.

The press and the police did a complete hatchet job on the Liverpool fans after Hillsborough (easier to do with their richly deserved reputation) and that can be seen with posts in this thread attributing the issues to fans turning up without tickets (not the case) and even referencing the Sun's lies about fans picking through the pockets of the dead/dying.

It's clear that if the fans had acted a bit more rationally/hadn't been massively drunk etc etc then some degree of the tragedy may have been avoided. But it's equally clear that a lot more went on to put everyone in that situation in the first place, and the cover-up that has followed it all will always be a stain on the police and other authorities involved.

 

[TheChosenOne]

I applaud you for that. With respect, I don't think you have done a particularly good job of looking at all of, rather than some of, the facts on this occasion.

I can only assume you never went to a football match in the 1980's. Fans were treated like animals. I used to stand on the Shelf and every big game at Spurs saw the same spectacle. The Park Lane was divided into pens, each one fenced off from the other with just a gate at the top. They would usually open the half the stand at the beginning and the away fans would enter though the corner at the West Stand. And you could see it filling up and they'd wait till all the pens were completely full - overly full - and fans were singing "Open up the fucking gate!" And they would eventually would with bodies pressed up against the fences and fans would come streaming through the small gap and whole sequence would repeat over again and all the while more fans were coming from the same single entrance. Absolutely no consideration was given to the fans safety and the Park Lane at White Hart Lane could easily have been another Hillsborough.

Good call. Throughout the 1970's and 1980's hooliganism was rife throughout the UK but this wasn't the only factor contributing to trouble in and around football grounds.

There could be huge crushes in The Paxton Rd or indeed in any popular 'end' anywhere when folk got over excited with the action and goal celebrations and other goings on. You might have as few as twenty fans behind you but when you had a barrier at your midriff it was always touch and go as to whether you got out of it.

Even at White Hart Lane there were over exuberant policemen who loved to get the truncheons out and get the hoolies. It could be a home game without very few away supporters and there would still be aggro.

Outside the grounds could also be trouble with getting squashed and trampled by crowds being herded and stampeded by police horses galloping and Alsatian dogs straining at their leashes supposedly helping crowd control.

I am not blaming the police for any of this .. it was something that evolved at the time and slowly it became manageable to a certain extent although to this day there are still mad moments.

I stated here before that I was at Hillsborough for the semi in 1981. I was also at Wembley for the final and the replay.

I can honestly say that when Ricky Villa scored 'that' goal I was behind the goal in the middle of the upper tier and quite a few thousand off us celebrated so much that it was like being in one great big tumble dryer ..Up, down sideways, lost all my mates but the joy and the adrenalin was a rush never been known by me before.

Disasters have always happened at football matches, not all of them preventable - The Ibrox disaster in 1971 when 66 lives were lost being in my opinion one of those.

HTH

 

[Wirral Spurs]

I can only assume you never went to a football match in the 1980's. Fans were treated like animals. I used to stand on the Shelf and every big game at Spurs saw the same spectacle. The Park Lane was divided into pens, each one fenced off from the other with just a gate at the top. They would usually open the half the stand at the beginning and the away fans would enter though the corner at the West Stand. And you could see it filling up and they'd wait till all the pens were completely full - overly full - and fans were singing "Open up the fucking gate!" And they would eventually would with bodies pressed up against the fences and fans would come streaming through the small gap and whole sequence would repeat over again and all the while more fans were coming from the same single entrance. Absolutely no consideration was given to the fans safety and the Park Lane at White Hart Lane could easily have been another Hillsborough.

Generally agree but I was there too and many fans acted like animals. One of the Hillsborough 96 was a Spurs fan, it annoys me that it was assumed they were all Liverpool supporters.

 

[EastLondonYid]

I will never forget 81.....i was only a youth,my first away game north of Watford, we were right up the front, pleading with the police to open the gate, he just looked at us for ages as we were crushed, i thought we were going to die, we were clearly not drunk or causing trouble, it was a nightmare.
When they eventually opened the gate i remember the gates opened towards us , so that was virtually impossible, but somehow one by one we got out, we made our way to the left to the large standing area there, i didn't really care about the whole 1st half tbh, it was shocking and no words can really explain how bad it was and how slow the police were in helping us.I will never forget how the copper was just looking at us and doing nothing as we pleaded.

 

[spursphil]

I was at Hillsborough in 81 standing on that same terrace. My memories are similar to eastlondonyid above.
What I can't get my head around is some on here still peddling the lies and myths about ticketless drunk Liverpool fans.
The Taylor report went through 71 hours of footage from 4 sources, Headcounts and Sheffield Wednesday's computerised counting system all confirmed that at no point did the capacity of the leppings lane terrace exceed the number of tickets allocated! So much for the thousands of ticketless fans lie.
The leppings lane terrace has had a history of crushing incidents going back to the 1950's.
Funny thing it's been proven to be an almighty cover up from start to finish, 164 police statements illegally altered and yet we have people still spouting the crap by those that did the altering.

It could have been us, and if it was the same lies and untruths would have been pinned on us.

 

[Toela65]

This is from the Liverpool Echo from right after Duckenfield's examination had finished. Its a summary of the most important points that came from his questioning about what happened that day:

Hillsborough inquests: David Duckenfield finishes his evidence - 17 things we learned from him

• 18:42, 18 March 2015
• By Eleanor Barlow

The match commander finished in the witness box after giving evidence for six and a half days

Hillsborough match commander David Duckenfield completed his evidence to the Hillsborough inquests after six and a half days in the witness box.

The retired chief superintendent, now 70, started his evidence last Tuesday.

We look back at what we learned during the course of his evidence.

His failures caused the deaths of 96 fans

Under questioning by Paul Greaney QC, representing the Police Federation, the former match commander agreed that closing the tunnel would have prevented the tragedy.

He accepted that he failed to recognise a need to close the tunnel and failed to take steps to close it.

Mr Greaney said: “That failure was the direct cause of the deaths of 96 persons in the Hillsborough tragedy?”

Mr Duckenfield said: “Yes, sir.” ( Full report )

He “froze” after ordering the opening of exit gates to the stadium

Mr Duckenfield initially refused to accept, when asked by Mr Greaney on a number of occasions, that he had frozen, “bottled it” or panicked as fans entered the ground through exit gate C.

But the court heard in evidence to Christina Lambert QC, counsel to the inquests, Mr Duckenfield had said that after the gate was opened his mind “went blank” for a moment.

Mr Greaney said: “What were you describing, in those statements to Ms Lambert, save for a situation in which, during the critical period, you froze?”

Mr Duckenfield said: “Listening to what you have just said, it appears a distinct possibility.”

Mr Greaney asked: “You know what was in your mind, and I will ask you just one last time: will you accept that, in fact, you froze?”

Mr Duckenfield said: “Yes, sir.”

He lied to an FA official as the disaster was unfolding

Mr Duckenfield told the inquests that when FA chief executive Graham Kelly came to the police control box at 3.15pm to find out what had happened to cause the crush in the central pens, he told him some fans had got in through a gate.

He said: “I was pointing out that fans had gained unauthorised access to the ground.”

He added: “What I didn’t say to Mr Kelly, I didn’t say, ‘I have authorised the opening of the gates’, I didn’t tell him that.

Christina Lambert QC, counsel to the inquests, said: “Do you consider now that you told them a lie?”

He said: “Yes, ma’am.”

He later said that was a “lie by omission” and he had been referring to fans entering the gate at 2.48pm - before the main opening at 2.52pm - when he wrongly thought the gate had been forced. ( Full report )

He apologised to the families for his lie

Mr Duckenfield said he apologised for lying to Mr Kelly in the police control box.

Last Wednesday he told the court: “What I would like to say the Liverpool families is this, I regret that omission and I shall regret it to my dying day.”

He added: “I apologise unreservedly to the families and I hope they believe it is a very, very sincere apology.”

He has now decided to tell the “whole truth”

Under questioning by Michael Mansfield QC, representing 75 of the families, Mr Duckenfield told the court that after the Hillsborough Independent Panel Report was published in 2012 he “hid himself away”.

He said: “I hope you understand this. I hoped it would go away.

“But then two years ago I had to force myself to look at matters and, as a result, I could only do so with the assistance of doctors. I think it is fair to say that since I have made great progress.

“Over this period, I have come to terms with reality, and that is why, over the period, you might say, I dug my head in the sand, didn’t admit things to myself, but I am now very much older, very much wiser, and very much more understanding of the events of the day and have decided to tell the whole truth.”

But he accepted that he was “driven” to accepting responsibility because the “writing is on the wall”

The court heard Mr Duckenfield was interviewed by ongoing investigation Operation Resolve on March 5 last year and gave officers a prepared statement, which said he could not improve on the evidence he had already given.

Pete Weatherby, representing 22 of the families, said: “So when you told this jury that it was the HIP report that made you confront your denials of the past, and when you told Mr Mansfield that you hadn’t found the opportunity to tell it how it really was, you are now saying that that moment didn’t happen after the HIP report, but it happened sometimes after March 5, 2014?”

Mr Duckenfield as time went by he had gained more knowledge and changed his views.

Mr Weatherby said: “The truth is that you have followed these inquests, and you have seen the evidence that’s emerged over the months, and you have seen that the writing is on the wall and you are now driven to accepting responsibility.”

Mr Duckenfield said: “Sir, I agree.”

He added: ““I have now learned of my failings, and I am accepting them.”

It has now dawned on him what the disaster meant to the families

At the end of his evidence on Friday, Mr Duckenfield was asked if he had thought about the families.

He said: “Sir, it is now that I have thought very seriously about the families.

“I’ve seen a video of late, a very distressing video, and for the first time, I have seen what it means to a mother to lose a loved one, to lose a loved one, not only in these tragic circumstances, but to have to say their goodbyes so unexpectedly, in a gymnasium, on a dirty floor, cuddling that person tearfully, and you can’t share with that person your grief, your sorrow and your sadness.”

He added: “To the families, I say this, I am terribly sorry. It has now dawned on me what it means to you, and I am dreadfully sorry.”

Admitting that his failings caused the 96 deaths was the “most difficult period” of his life

On Tuesday Mr Duckenfield’s own counsel, John Beggs QC, said: “I want to ask you whether it had been easy, for the last five and a half days, to admit that your professional failings led to the deaths of 96 innocent men, women and children, and the injuries of many more?

“Has that been easy, Mr Duckenfield, for you?”

Mr Duckenfield said: “Sir, it has been the most difficult period of my life.”

He was not the best man for the job

On his first day of evidence Mr Duckenfield, who was promoted just weeks before the disaster, was asked if he was concerned that he had a limited time to become “au fait” with the job.

He said: “With hindsight, I should have thought about my limited knowledge of the role of the commander in a major event that was an all-ticket sellout, when I had not been responsible, or in that responsible position, previously.”

He added: “All I would say is this, that after a period of... shall we say, I’m older, hopefully wiser, probably I wasn’t the best man for the job on the day.”

He did not act as a “reasonably competent” match commander on the day

During questioning about his actions after ordering the opening of the exit gates, coroner Sir John Goldring asked: “You are saying, are you, that a reasonably competent match commander would have foreseen where fans should go?”

Mr Duckenfield said: “Yes.”

The coroner asked: “You are saying that a reasonably competent match commander would have closed the tunnel?”

Mr Duckenfield said yes.

The coroner asked: “Does it therefore follow - tell me if I have misunderstood - that on the day you did not act as a reasonably competent match commander?”

Mr Duckenfield said yes.

The buck stopped with him

Mr Duckenfield says: “I am the man in overall control. I seek guidance and assistance from others with greater experience, but ultimately the buck stops with me.”

Dog handlers were called to the stadium before ambulance

The court was shown a transcript of a call at 3.04pm from the control box, where Mr Duckenfield was based, to police headquarters requesting dog handlers to go to the ground.

Mr Duckenfield was asked why dog handlers might be needed, and said: “I have no idea, sir, other than possible contingency to put a line across the pitch for my secure area for rescue.”

The inquests heard a request for a fleet of ambulances was made two minutes and 40 seconds after the request for dogs was made,

A request for the fire service was made at 3.13pm.

He avoided disciplinary proceedings by retiring in his mid-40s

The jury heard the former match commander retired two years after the disaster.

Terry Munyard, representing three of the families, said: “You retired at a time when the police complaints commission indicated that they intended to bring disciplinary proceedings against you, and by retiring you avoided those proceedings, didn’t you?”

Mr Duckenfield said: “I did, sir.”

Mr Munyard said: “You retired at what age, 46, 47, on full pension?”

Mr Duckenfield replied: “Something like that, sir.”

He suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder and severe depression

The court heard Mr Duckenfield was medically retired on November 10, 1991, and was certified as the force doctor as unfit to carry out the duties of a police constable.

Mr Duckenfield confirmed the diagnosis was one of severe depression and post-traumatic stress disorder.

He was asked if he was ashamed by his retirement.

He said: “Very ashamed, sir, and embarrassed by it all.”

His failures were made under circumstances where he was inexperienced and under intense pressure

Mr Beggs asked his client: “In front of this jury, Mr Duckenfield, many family members in court, many, many lawyers and journalists, you have admitted, haven’t you, some very serious professional failures.

“Do you agree that those serious failures were in circumstances, I just want to list four, where first you were new and inexperienced?”

“You were working to what we now know was a flawed operational order?”

“You were, at least from 2.30pm onwards, if not earlier, under intense pressure?”

“You were working in unmanagably difficult and fast moving circumstances?”

Mr Duckenfield agreed with all the points.

He was a Freemason

Mr Duckenfield was asked whether he was a member of the Freemasons.

He said: “I was, sir.”

He said he joined in 1975 and the year after the disaster became a “worshipful master”.

He was asked if his promotion to chief superintendent of F Division, a role which included being match commander at Hillsborough, was linked to Freemasonry.

He said: “I wouldn’t know, sir, but I would hope not.”



Hope this helps inform the minority in this thread who seem to be CHOOSING to stick to disproven lies, propaganda and myths. Duckenfield himself has admitted that the reason, the ONLY reason, why 95 LFC fans and 1 Spurs fan died that day was because his incompetence led to him not closing off the Leppings Lane tunnel.

Can I also give a heartfelt thank you to the same few posters who have obviously taken lots of time to read the various reports into what happened that day, as well as the Hillsborough Independent Panel Report which was over 300 pages, and went to great time and effort to correct a minority here who's views on what happened that horrible day are at best, misguided.

As someone who was personally effected from what happened that day, my Dad more so, it means so much to me to see rival fans putting aside partisan football nonsense to be objective about Hillsboro and go to great lengths to learn the truth. Its means more to me, and I'd imagine other LFC fans affected, than I can get across here. Thank you so very very much.

 

[Toela65]

Generally agree but I was there too and many fans acted like animals. One of the Hillsborough 96 was a Spurs fan, it annoys me that it was assumed they were all Liverpool supporters.

Given it was a LFC match not involving Spurs and the 96 who died were all in the LFC end do you not think its a little expected that the media assumed they were all LFC fans.

I go out of my way, as do other LFC fans, to remind younger Reds not around then that there was also a Spurs fan who died also and I know the club tries to do this too but unfortunately I nor the club can control what the rest of the media says and writes. I agree though it must be awfully frustrating to Spurs fans and I wish there was more I could do to ease this.

 

[talkshowhost86]

This is from the Liverpool Echo from right after Duckenfield's examination had finished. Its a summary of the most important points that came from his questioning about what happened that day:

Hillsborough inquests: David Duckenfield finishes his evidence - 17 things we learned from him

• 18:42, 18 March 2015
• By Eleanor Barlow

The match commander finished in the witness box after giving evidence for six and a half days

Hillsborough match commander David Duckenfield completed his evidence to the Hillsborough inquests after six and a half days in the witness box.

The retired chief superintendent, now 70, started his evidence last Tuesday.

We look back at what we learned during the course of his evidence.

His failures caused the deaths of 96 fans

Under questioning by Paul Greaney QC, representing the Police Federation, the former match commander agreed that closing the tunnel would have prevented the tragedy.

He accepted that he failed to recognise a need to close the tunnel and failed to take steps to close it.

Mr Greaney said: “That failure was the direct cause of the deaths of 96 persons in the Hillsborough tragedy?”

Mr Duckenfield said: “Yes, sir.” ( Full report )

He “froze” after ordering the opening of exit gates to the stadium

Mr Duckenfield initially refused to accept, when asked by Mr Greaney on a number of occasions, that he had frozen, “bottled it” or panicked as fans entered the ground through exit gate C.

But the court heard in evidence to Christina Lambert QC, counsel to the inquests, Mr Duckenfield had said that after the gate was opened his mind “went blank” for a moment.

Mr Greaney said: “What were you describing, in those statements to Ms Lambert, save for a situation in which, during the critical period, you froze?”

Mr Duckenfield said: “Listening to what you have just said, it appears a distinct possibility.”

Mr Greaney asked: “You know what was in your mind, and I will ask you just one last time: will you accept that, in fact, you froze?”

Mr Duckenfield said: “Yes, sir.”

He lied to an FA official as the disaster was unfolding

Mr Duckenfield told the inquests that when FA chief executive Graham Kelly came to the police control box at 3.15pm to find out what had happened to cause the crush in the central pens, he told him some fans had got in through a gate.

He said: “I was pointing out that fans had gained unauthorised access to the ground.”

He added: “What I didn’t say to Mr Kelly, I didn’t say, ‘I have authorised the opening of the gates’, I didn’t tell him that.

Christina Lambert QC, counsel to the inquests, said: “Do you consider now that you told them a lie?”

He said: “Yes, ma’am.”

He later said that was a “lie by omission” and he had been referring to fans entering the gate at 2.48pm - before the main opening at 2.52pm - when he wrongly thought the gate had been forced. ( Full report )

He apologised to the families for his lie

Mr Duckenfield said he apologised for lying to Mr Kelly in the police control box.

Last Wednesday he told the court: “What I would like to say the Liverpool families is this, I regret that omission and I shall regret it to my dying day.”

He added: “I apologise unreservedly to the families and I hope they believe it is a very, very sincere apology.”

He has now decided to tell the “whole truth”

Under questioning by Michael Mansfield QC, representing 75 of the families, Mr Duckenfield told the court that after the Hillsborough Independent Panel Report was published in 2012 he “hid himself away”.

He said: “I hope you understand this. I hoped it would go away.

“But then two years ago I had to force myself to look at matters and, as a result, I could only do so with the assistance of doctors. I think it is fair to say that since I have made great progress.

“Over this period, I have come to terms with reality, and that is why, over the period, you might say, I dug my head in the sand, didn’t admit things to myself, but I am now very much older, very much wiser, and very much more understanding of the events of the day and have decided to tell the whole truth.”

But he accepted that he was “driven” to accepting responsibility because the “writing is on the wall”

The court heard Mr Duckenfield was interviewed by ongoing investigation Operation Resolve on March 5 last year and gave officers a prepared statement, which said he could not improve on the evidence he had already given.

Pete Weatherby, representing 22 of the families, said: “So when you told this jury that it was the HIP report that made you confront your denials of the past, and when you told Mr Mansfield that you hadn’t found the opportunity to tell it how it really was, you are now saying that that moment didn’t happen after the HIP report, but it happened sometimes after March 5, 2014?”

Mr Duckenfield as time went by he had gained more knowledge and changed his views.

Mr Weatherby said: “The truth is that you have followed these inquests, and you have seen the evidence that’s emerged over the months, and you have seen that the writing is on the wall and you are now driven to accepting responsibility.”

Mr Duckenfield said: “Sir, I agree.”

He added: ““I have now learned of my failings, and I am accepting them.”

It has now dawned on him what the disaster meant to the families

At the end of his evidence on Friday, Mr Duckenfield was asked if he had thought about the families.

He said: “Sir, it is now that I have thought very seriously about the families.

“I’ve seen a video of late, a very distressing video, and for the first time, I have seen what it means to a mother to lose a loved one, to lose a loved one, not only in these tragic circumstances, but to have to say their goodbyes so unexpectedly, in a gymnasium, on a dirty floor, cuddling that person tearfully, and you can’t share with that person your grief, your sorrow and your sadness.”

He added: “To the families, I say this, I am terribly sorry. It has now dawned on me what it means to you, and I am dreadfully sorry.”

Admitting that his failings caused the 96 deaths was the “most difficult period” of his life

On Tuesday Mr Duckenfield’s own counsel, John Beggs QC, said: “I want to ask you whether it had been easy, for the last five and a half days, to admit that your professional failings led to the deaths of 96 innocent men, women and children, and the injuries of many more?

“Has that been easy, Mr Duckenfield, for you?”

Mr Duckenfield said: “Sir, it has been the most difficult period of my life.”

He was not the best man for the job

On his first day of evidence Mr Duckenfield, who was promoted just weeks before the disaster, was asked if he was concerned that he had a limited time to become “au fait” with the job.

He said: “With hindsight, I should have thought about my limited knowledge of the role of the commander in a major event that was an all-ticket sellout, when I had not been responsible, or in that responsible position, previously.”

He added: “All I would say is this, that after a period of... shall we say, I’m older, hopefully wiser, probably I wasn’t the best man for the job on the day.”

He did not act as a “reasonably competent” match commander on the day

During questioning about his actions after ordering the opening of the exit gates, coroner Sir John Goldring asked: “You are saying, are you, that a reasonably competent match commander would have foreseen where fans should go?”

Mr Duckenfield said: “Yes.”

The coroner asked: “You are saying that a reasonably competent match commander would have closed the tunnel?”

Mr Duckenfield said yes.

The coroner asked: “Does it therefore follow - tell me if I have misunderstood - that on the day you did not act as a reasonably competent match commander?”

Mr Duckenfield said yes.

The buck stopped with him

Mr Duckenfield says: “I am the man in overall control. I seek guidance and assistance from others with greater experience, but ultimately the buck stops with me.”

Dog handlers were called to the stadium before ambulance

The court was shown a transcript of a call at 3.04pm from the control box, where Mr Duckenfield was based, to police headquarters requesting dog handlers to go to the ground.

Mr Duckenfield was asked why dog handlers might be needed, and said: “I have no idea, sir, other than possible contingency to put a line across the pitch for my secure area for rescue.”

The inquests heard a request for a fleet of ambulances was made two minutes and 40 seconds after the request for dogs was made,

A request for the fire service was made at 3.13pm.

He avoided disciplinary proceedings by retiring in his mid-40s

The jury heard the former match commander retired two years after the disaster.

Terry Munyard, representing three of the families, said: “You retired at a time when the police complaints commission indicated that they intended to bring disciplinary proceedings against you, and by retiring you avoided those proceedings, didn’t you?”

Mr Duckenfield said: “I did, sir.”

Mr Munyard said: “You retired at what age, 46, 47, on full pension?”

Mr Duckenfield replied: “Something like that, sir.”

He suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder and severe depression

The court heard Mr Duckenfield was medically retired on November 10, 1991, and was certified as the force doctor as unfit to carry out the duties of a police constable.

Mr Duckenfield confirmed the diagnosis was one of severe depression and post-traumatic stress disorder.

He was asked if he was ashamed by his retirement.

He said: “Very ashamed, sir, and embarrassed by it all.”

His failures were made under circumstances where he was inexperienced and under intense pressure

Mr Beggs asked his client: “In front of this jury, Mr Duckenfield, many family members in court, many, many lawyers and journalists, you have admitted, haven’t you, some very serious professional failures.

“Do you agree that those serious failures were in circumstances, I just want to list four, where first you were new and inexperienced?”

“You were working to what we now know was a flawed operational order?”

“You were, at least from 2.30pm onwards, if not earlier, under intense pressure?”

“You were working in unmanagably difficult and fast moving circumstances?”

Mr Duckenfield agreed with all the points.

He was a Freemason

Mr Duckenfield was asked whether he was a member of the Freemasons.

He said: “I was, sir.”

He said he joined in 1975 and the year after the disaster became a “worshipful master”.

He was asked if his promotion to chief superintendent of F Division, a role which included being match commander at Hillsborough, was linked to Freemasonry.

He said: “I wouldn’t know, sir, but I would hope not.”



Hope this helps inform the minority in this thread who seem to be CHOOSING to stick to disproven lies, propaganda and myths. Duckenfield himself has admitted that the reason, the ONLY reason, why 95 LFC fans and 1 Spurs fan died that day was because his incompetence led to him not closing off the Leppings Lane tunnel.

Can I also give a heartfelt thank you to the same few posters who have obviously taken lots of time to read the various reports into what happened that day, as well as the Hillsborough Independent Panel Report which was over 300 pages, and went to great time and effort to correct a minority here who's views on what happened that horrible day are at best, misguided.

As someone who was personally effected from what happened that day, my Dad more so, it means so much to me to see rival fans putting aside partisan football nonsense to be objective about Hillsboro and go to great lengths to learn the truth. Its means more to me, and I'd imagine other LFC fans affected, than I can get across here. Thank you so very very much.

What's the general Liverpool fan view on this latest revelation Toela?

It feels to me as if Duckenfield, whilst clearly culpable, has been completely hung out to dry by everyone else who must have been involved.

 

[Toela65]

What's the general Liverpool fan view on this latest revelation Toela?

It feels to me as if Duckenfield, whilst clearly culpable, has been completely hung out to dry by everyone else who must have been involved.

Honestly, as you can imagine, he's pretty much hated for what he did and has done until the revelations of what he's admitted and divulged about himself etc in the current inquest.

I don't know what the general feeling is amongst Reds generally as we are not allowed to discuss it on social media and even LFC forums are being pretty paranoid about discussing it as the Judge'Law has said they could be held in contempt of court for doing so and the QC's have said talking about it by LFC fans together online could jeopardize the criminal case against Duckenfield planned in the future, something about a fair trial? i don't understand any of it TBH.

Duckenfield hasn't been hung out to dry at all. Its impossible for that to have happened. He was the ultimate authority on that day. he was the one in charge of EVERYTHING that happened that day and he was the ultimate responsibility for having a duty of care for all supporters safety at the game.

The buck stops with him. There is no-one else above him for the buck to be passed to, hence why he is the one facing the consequences now.

Basically, as Duckenfield has now admitted in Court himself, the reason the 96 people died was because of the decisions, or lack there-of, he made on the day. The ultimate cause, the one variable that if changed wouldve prevented the tragedy, was Duckenfield forgetting to close of the entrance to the central pens on the Leppings Lane end like had been done at previous big games there.

 

[spursphil]

It's about time Duckenfield faced the music but I would be very worried if he was made the sole scapegoat.
Many things went wrong day day which led to the disaster.

Sheffield city council certainly were to blame for overestimating the capacity of the leppings lane end AND its also there duty to the public to make sure that hillsborough had a safety certificate. They didn't have a safety certificate from 1979 to 1989.

Sheffield Wednesday are also to blame for knowingly stageing games for 10 YEARS without a safety certificate.

The FA are to blame for not insisting on inspecting the safety certificate of a club hosting an FA cup semi final.

South Yorkshire police are to blame as it was there job to see that the match passed off without incident. Its obvious as events unfolded that command and control failed miserably. A police control box overlooking the terrace had a birds eye view of crowd, no action was taken to stop the disaster.
To make matters worse south yorkshire police perverted the course of justice by almost instantly getting a cover up underway. Their black propaganda unit got into full swing with its smear campaign against the victims. They later illegally altered statements and hid evidense.

Many people were to blame but only the south yorkshire police acted in a criminal way.

The Thatcher government were to blame as they knew the truth and were happy to lock documents away for years.

To finish the liverpool fans were let down by everybody, all those with a duty to protect them failed to do just that. These public servants must be accountable, its their responcibilty, and the families of the 96 and liverpool
people as a whole do not want revenge, they purely want JUSTICE and for 23 years its been denied them because of an establisment CRIMINAL COVER UP.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Honestly, as you can imagine, he's pretty much hated for what he did and has done until the revelations of what he's admitted and divulged about himself etc in the current inquest.

I don't know what the general feeling is amongst Reds generally as we are not allowed to discuss it on social media and even LFC forums are being pretty paranoid about discussing it as the Judge'Law has said they could be held in contempt of court for doing so and the QC's have said talking about it by LFC fans together online could jeopardize the criminal case against Duckenfield planned in the future, something about a fair trial? i don't understand any of it TBH.

Duckenfield hasn't been hung out to dry at all. Its impossible for that to have happened. He was the ultimate authority on that day. he was the one in charge of EVERYTHING that happened that day and he was the ultimate responsibility for having a duty of care for all supporters safety at the game.

The buck stops with him. There is no-one else above him for the buck to be passed to, hence why he is the one facing the consequences now.

Basically, as Duckenfield has now admitted in Court himself, the reason the 96 people died was because of the decisions, or lack there-of, he made on the day. The ultimate cause, the one variable that if changed wouldve prevented the tragedy, was Duckenfield forgetting to close of the entrance to the central pens on the Leppings Lane end like had been done at previous big games there.

Surely there are people above Duckenfield though who can or should be implicated in the cover up that followed?

I'm not for a minute suggesting there should be any leniency towards him. As you say he made the decisions and he also helped cover everything up afterwards, but there's no way he's the only head that the axe should fall on over this.

 

[TheChosenOne]

Yes TSH, totally agree with what you say, Duckenfield is completely responsible for the events unfolding the way
they developed on the day ... But those above him are also culpable in whatever way they trained him up for the job.

The buck shouldn't stop at Duckenfield and given previous turns of events at Hillsborough I would have to say was nothing learned from then.

 

[Wirral Spurs]

Given it was a LFC match not involving Spurs and the 96 who died were all in the LFC end do you not think its a little expected that the media assumed they were all LFC fans.

I go out of my way, as do other LFC fans, to remind younger Reds not around then that there was also a Spurs fan who died also and I know the club tries to do this too but unfortunately I nor the club can control what the rest of the media says and writes. I agree though it must be awfully frustrating to Spurs fans and I wish there was more I could do to ease this.

Not seen very much on this actually from any quarter. I guess the last bit was sarcastic as it clearly is not that important to anyone except those directly involved. Fair play if you do as you say, nice gesture.

 

[spud]

This is from the Liverpool Echo from right after Duckenfield's examination had finished.

Toela, I was in the Leppings Lane end in 1981, and firmly believe that the only thing that saved us on that day was that the police opened the gates in the fence at the front of the terrace and let us escape onto the pitch.

I haven't been able to follow the inquest as closely as I'd like. Was anybody questioned about opening those gates in 1989 and was any reason given as to why they weren't opened?

 

[balalasaurus]

For a second there I thought I made this post! Had me going there.

 

[JollyHappy]

Toela, I was in the Leppings Lane end in 1981, and firmly believe that the only thing that saved us on that day was that the police opened the gates in the fence at the front of the terrace and let us escape onto the pitch.

I haven't been able to follow the inquest as closely as I'd like. Was anybody questioned about opening those gates in 1989 and was any reason given as to why they weren't opened?

Were there gates and railings at that time? I though the railings went up later on?

I was thankfully at the other end standing in the Wolves end

 

[TheChosenOne]

Were there gates and railings at that time? I though the railings went up later on?

I was thankfully at the other end standing in the Wolves end

Have a decko at this to jog the memory. ...