How important is it to have a DM?

[Cravenspurs]

Should probably stick this in the 'amnesty' thread, but I think Bentaleb needs to do a lot more to be rated as highly as he is. He's certainly very promising, and at such a young age he looks completely within his element in the Prem. However, he can't tackle well enough to be a DM, his positional sense isn't always great, he rarely plays killer passes forward, and offers no goal threat whatsoever. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but his strength seems to be as a 'Carrick' type that keeps things ticking along consistently, only Carrick-lite. That is still a great asset to have, but he's no box-to-box player in my eyes.

Completely agree on the above. I see the potential, but am not as in love with him as others are. Of course I want to see him develop and grow, but for me his decisive passing is slim to none and his defensive play is pretty lackluster. He is amazing with the ball at his feet though. I see a whole lot of Dembele in him and we all know how frustrating that can be.

My understanding when MoPo joined was that his system favoured two central midfielders who could each win the ball and then play it forward quickly. The idea being to break up play before oppos. attacks developed and transition the play forward before they had time to regroup and sit deep. So, neither player may be as effective alone as a true DM, and neither would necessarily be as effective creatively as the play-maker* but between them they would be as effective, or more so, both defensively and offensively while facilitating the more rapid attacking play that he favours.

I have no clue about his time at Espanyol, but while at Southhampton, Poch played with two DM in my book. Schneiderlin and Wanyama were both ball winners that also had the ability to push forward and pick out the long balls. We currently have neither of the two in my book. I have not seen enough of Alli or Winks, but from what I have seen they are suited for attacking positions.

 

[spurs9]

Completely agree on the above. I see the potential, but am not as in love with him as others are. Of course I want to see him develop and grow, but for me his decisive passing is slim to none and his defensive play is pretty lackluster. He is amazing with the ball at his feet though. I see a whole lot of Dembele in him and we all know how frustrating that can be.



I have no clue about his time at Espanyol, but while at Southhampton, Poch played with two DM in my book. Schneiderlin and Wanyama were both ball winners that also had the ability to push forward and pick out the long balls. We currently have neither of the two in my book. I have not seen enough of Alli or Winks, but from what I have seen they are suited for attacking positions.

Their were times when he played Cork & JWP as the 2 CM's. At Espanyol, he sometimes played a CM with an AM and sometimes one of the 2 with a DM.

 

[Cravenspurs]

Their were times when he played Cork & JWP as the 2 CM's. At Espanyol, he sometimes played a CM with an AM and sometimes one of the 2 with a DM.

Yeah he did play the two and he also out Davis (Davies?) in the mid too. But for the big games I tend to remember him playing the two big boys together. They made a nice pairing in my book. Thanks for the note man!

 

[Dharmabum]

We can't even agree on SC who, and what is, is a DM
There have been lengthy discussions on here about why players like Schneiderlin, McCarthy, Kramer are not DM...and yet a few wanted Cabaye to occupy the DM role And then there is the claim/argument that Spurs are not in fact using a DMF but a double pivots of CMs.
And then you got Tim and Les' view but that's another story.

 

[RickyVilla]

Fair enough.
Can you name a team that has won the league without one?

Nope. That's a much better argument.

 

[THOWIG]

The reaction over Dier who has played what 2 or 3 games as a defensive midfielder for us is crazy.

 

[THOWIG]

The funny thing is we already have a player who when he played as a DM was amazing.

 

[Japhet]

My issue is more with not having enough bodies in MF in defensive situations. Bringing in a destroyer to play one of the roles wouldn't solve the problem as he could only expect to cover half the pitch. A DM needs to plat centrally which can only be done with 3 in the middle. To play with 2 there they both need to be complete all rounders and Mason and Bentaleb aren't. Either or both would be fine with a third midfielder and would probably be able to push forward more which is where Bentaleb should be playing.

 

[nicdic]

McCarthy was a big no for me, and I'm glad we've not got him - at £20m you're talking insane money on a very average player. We would've been better off simply keeping Stambouli rather than wasting huge money on JM.

As Spurger said above - isn't our fancy new scouting system supposed to provide us with the players we need? Where did Wanyama come from for Saints? Celtic! And he does a solid job there. Surely there are players out there that fit the bill without us having to fork out 'UK Player' prices on a reasonable but ultimately quite plodding guy just because we know who he is?

Now Cabaye, on the other hand, was the obvious buy. Twice the talent and half the price of McCarthy, and very, very available. Given where he's ended up we evidently could've signed him on a whim and inexpensively - he's reported to be on as little as £40k a week at Palace.

He brings experience, grit, seniority, leadership, goals and a real eye for a forward pass. All things the centre of our team is crying out for.

Cabaye will be the big miss of the summer for me - he will excel at Palace and I'll be watching him all season regretting our lack of action. Perhaps he is too big a name and too big a personality for Poch to deal with - our manager certainly appears to prefer to deal with inexperienced kids than veteran professionals who have achieved anything.

I agree on Cabaye having been a better option than McCarthy, but is he actually a DM? Are many of these players we've been looking at strict DMs? I'd see Cabaye much more like Carrick or Schneiderlin, a deeper playmaker almost, capable of breaking things up, but their real talents lie in moving the ball forwards. In that sense, is Cabaye bringing a more defensive game to the table than say Bentaleb or Mason? I'm not sure that I'm convinced he is.

As I said, I don't think we're looking for a DM. We could add a quality central midfielder, but I don't think we'll be going for a strict DM.

 

[Imnotacticalgenius]

Personally to me, that ideal DM with a good sense of positioning, tenacious and accurate fast long ball (ala a quarterback) is already in the squad. But he is 2-3 years away from reaching his full potential. That player is Winks. IMHO, i think Winks will get some game time this season. Last season against most teams we played Bentaleb and Mason. This included the 3-0 lost at Man United. I believe that is why we see Dier and Alli being experimented on the last few pre-season games. I think Dier and Alli will be paired to play some games and Bentaleb and Mason to play the others. These partnership will be dependent on the opponents and how they are set up.

So i think that we might see a partnership of Dier and Alli in the Man United game the next 2 days. Dier might be a temporary or permanent feature in CM. I think this will really depends on whether a specialist DM is brought in (Sven Bender?) this transfer window. If Dier and Alli partnership proved to be a success at Man United, i think the club might not be bringing in a specialist DM this transfer window and to continue developing Dier as a DM specialist. Considering also that Winks will come through in the next 2-3 years (Winks, imho is already a decent DM at present and will see some game time this season).

This might be the thinking now at Spurs and might be good longer term as:

1. It frees funds to buy the extra Forward/WF player (On top of N'Jie. And Berahino?)
2. Allows Milos Veljkovic to be the 3rd choice RCB and see some game time (I think Milos might be on 1/2 season Championship loan now or January Transfer window)

Yes, so i think DM specialist is important as it provides alternative avenues to play differently for certain games against certain opponents. As the Squad had Bentaleb and Mason mostly last season, with now with Dier, Alli and to some extent Winks (for this season), i think the squad is stronger in the DM/CM positions now.

* Personally i feel MoPo is looking to play Carroll as a CAM and Dembele as a CAM/RWF. So the CMFs will be Bentaleb, Mason, Alli, Winks and Dier (or a new DM specialists - Sven Bender?).

 

[THOWIG]

Winks is 19 isn't he?

Portos midfield was bossed by a 17 year old for a lot of the time last season.

 

[Imnotacticalgenius]

Winks is 19 isn't he?

Portos midfield was bossed by a 17 year old for a lot of the time last season.

Yes, i believe he is 19. But the thing for our Club is that they have just bought a highly rated 19 years old in Alli. So now,
Alli is paired with Dier who is just 21 (Dier being a little bit of experience in the BPL). But if Winks can grab his chances, when he is played, we might just see a Winks/Alli pairing in the first team before the season ends on top of Bentaleb/Mason pairing. But this is also looking the whole club plans for the long term for Dier, Winks and Weljkovic (who i truly believe is in Spurs long term plan as a RCB and not as a DM), as well as if Dier do very well in his DM outings......

 

[THFCSPURS19]

I agree on Cabaye having been a better option than McCarthy, but is he actually a DM? Are many of these players we've been looking at strict DMs? I'd see Cabaye much more like Carrick or Schneiderlin, a deeper playmaker almost, capable of breaking things up, but their real talents lie in moving the ball forwards. In that sense, is Cabaye bringing a more defensive game to the table than say Bentaleb or Mason? I'm not sure that I'm convinced he is.

As I said, I don't think we're looking for a DM. We could add a quality central midfielder, but I don't think we'll be going for a strict DM.

Schneiderlin isn't a deeper playmaker. His strength is breaking things up, and can move the ball forward well. Whereas someone like Carrick's strength is moving the ball well...etc....you get my point.

 

[Blake Griffin]

i don't know. we didn't have one last season yet finished where we pretty much always do.

 

[nicdic]

Schneiderlin isn't a deeper playmaker. His strength is breaking things up, and can move the ball forward well. Whereas someone like Carrick's strength is moving the ball well...etc....you get my point.

Yeah, but I wouldn't say either are strict DMs, they've far more to their games than that. We're after a well rounded CM in my opinion.

 

[zepstar]

It's no coincidence that in the last 10-15 years, on those occasions when we've had an 'enforcer' type in the middle, we've always fared significantly better.

The obvious example being Scott Parker during those heady days.

 

[mpickard2087]

We wont play one. Poch is wedded to 4-2-3-1 (4-2-4) and the double pivot and the mythical two all-rounders who can do everything. Playing in a cm2 like this is incredibly demanding for players and it simply wont work every week. I've made the point before that even Mourinho with all the talent available to him, and how hard his team works, has certain games where he has to put an extra body in midfield.

I guarantee that even if we did sign some defensive maestro that after a while people would be focusing on what he couldn't do. We've seen it when we had Parker/Modric as a duo, half the time it was people bemoaning that one couldn't pass a ball progressively and the other couldn't tackle.

 

[nicdic]

We wont play one. Poch is wedded to 4-2-3-1 (4-2-4) and the double pivot and the mythical two all-rounders who can do everything. Playing in a cm2 like this is incredibly demanding for players and it simply wont work every week. I've made the point before that even Mourinho with all the talent available to him, and how hard his team works, has certain games where he has to put an extra body in midfield.

I guarantee that even if we did sign some defensive maestro that after a while people would be focusing on what he couldn't do. We've seen it when we had Parker/Modric as a duo, half the time it was people bemoaning that one couldn't pass a ball progressively and the other couldn't tackle.

This is basically the position we're in. At least we look like we could have four guys who are capable of playing the way Poch wants in Mason, Bentaleb, Alli and Winks, but there are going to be ups and downs with them that we'll need to stick with them through.

Things will change if we seek to play a different formation, but I just don't see it happening.

 

[idontgetit]

The reaction over Dier who has played what 2 or 3 games as a defensive midfielder for us is crazy.

Dunno you can look at a player and quite quickly know whether their style fits a role or not. Dier isn't a CM

 

[idontgetit]

Depends on the formation. With the double pivot we play you need two cm's who can attack and defend meaning an out and out DM isn't important