It's our pattern of play that is costing us at the moment

[shyfx2k2]

Obviously another hugely disappointing performance today and what could turn out to be a very costly 3 points dropped. For me, Fulham were not spectacular at all and while they defended solidly, we rarely gave them anything to really think about.

There is a common theme which, in my opinion, is costing us big time and is consistent in all three of the games that we have lost recently. That theme is a lack of winger. Wing play is vital to our over all game and our pattern of play has been the same for a very long time. For the vast majority of the last 6 years, we have played with an out and out winger on one side and a guy cutting in on the other side. This changed for a while when we had both Bale and Lennon operating in the wide areas but we have had at least one wide man there for the vast majority of the time, basically for as long as Lennon has been in the first team (see also Simon Davies, Andy Reid etc).

What this gives us is width. The main advantage of this width is that it forces the opposition to 'seperate' in the middle of the park, they have to commit at least 1 midfielder and a full back to deal with our winger and full back combination, meaning there are gaps in which 1 of our CM's, our strikers and our opposite winger coming in from the other side can operate in, when in and around the opposition penalty area. This concept was key to our recent success and especially our success in the Champions League, where European teams aren't used to dealing with fast players willing to beat you on the outside.

So what happens when we don't play with width? As happened today, the game became congested. In the first half, while BAE and Sig did keep their width to a certain extent, we lacked pace. It was a difficult ask for BAE to operate as a LM as it isnt his natural game and Sig was non existent on the other side, mainly due to a lack of service and poor understanding with Naughton (neither of them can be blamed for that really as this was their first performance together).

In the second half, we had serious problems with penetration. Dempsey and Sig were too narrow. What this meant is that when Naugton especially got on the ball in the final third, the opposition penalty area was absolutely rammed with bodies, leaving no space for second balls to fall into. This, coupled with over hit crosses meant that we created very few chances.

The most threatening we looked all afternoon was when we moved Bale to right midfield. Finally we had some pace in the wide areas and were able to stretch Fulham a little. IMO the best move would have been to move Bale to LM and have Dempsey on the right hand side. However, it showed that when we injected some pace out wide (plus the introduction of the excellent Tom Carroll in the middle) and had someone who was willing to beat somebody on the outside. We looked threatening and forced the goalkeeper into making some saves.

In conclusion, if Lennon is injured for any more games, I think it is vital that Bale plays LW for every game that Lennon is not playing in, to give us the ability to stretch teams and open up pockets of space. Bale especially helps with this as most teams normally triple up on him in the wide areas. If Lennon is back then we can play Bale through the centre.

Without this width, we struggle and this isn't something new for us, we struggled last season when we had to play say Pienaar and Kranjcar wide, or Modric and Kranjcar wide. In hindsight, we should have held on to young Andros Townsend.

A real tough one to take today but it is vital that we get back to our shape and playing the way we know how to play. COYS

 

[markiespurs]

Agree about width being important in the way we play, which makes the decision to let Townsend go out on loan when we have no back up on the wing even more of a cock up by AVB.

Just a thought, but shouldn't a top manager be capable of changing the way his team plays according to the players he has available?

 

[shyfx2k2]

Agree about width being important in the way we play, which makes the decision to let Townsend go out on loan when we have no back up on the wing even more of a cock up by AVB.

Just a thought, but shouldn't a top manager be capable of changing the way his team plays according to the players he has available?

It depends on who well versed the team is in the alternative tactics I suppose. Fulham struggled for a long time when they lost Dembele as he was a vital element to the way they played and everything went through him. They had to work on an alternative model involved Ruiz and Berbatov.

For me, the biggest loss in the San Siro was Lennon, rather than Bale.

I agree about Townsend though, we should have held on to him.

 

[Pimp_Spur]

Obviously another hugely disappointing performance today and what could turn out to be a very costly 3 points dropped. For me, Fulham were not spectacular at all and while they defended solidly, we rarely gave them anything to really think about.

There is a common theme which, in my opinion, is costing us big time and is consistent in all three of the games that we have lost recently. That theme is a lack of winger. Wing play is vital to our over all game and our pattern of play has been the same for a very long time. For the vast majority of the last 6 years, we have played with an out and out winger on one side and a guy cutting in on the other side. This changed for a while when we had both Bale and Lennon operating in the wide areas but we have had at least one wide man there for the vast majority of the time, basically for as long as Lennon has been in the first team (see also Simon Davies, Andy Reid etc).

What this gives us is width. The main advantage of this width is that it forces the opposition to 'seperate' in the middle of the park, they have to commit at least 1 midfielder and a full back to deal with our winger and full back combination, meaning there are gaps in which 1 of our CM's, our strikers and our opposite winger coming in from the other side can operate in, when in and around the opposition penalty area. This concept was key to our recent success and especially our success in the Champions League, where European teams aren't used to dealing with fast players willing to beat you on the outside.

So what happens when we don't play with width? As happened today, the game became congested. In the first half, while BAE and Sig did keep their width to a certain extent, we lacked pace. It was a difficult ask for BAE to operate as a LM as it isnt his natural game and Sig was non existent on the other side, mainly due to a lack of service and poor understanding with Naughton (neither of them can be blamed for that really as this was their first performance together).

In the second half, we had serious problems with penetration. Dempsey and Sig were too narrow. What this meant is that when Naugton especially got on the ball in the final third, the opposition penalty area was absolutely rammed with bodies, leaving no space for second balls to fall into. This, coupled with over hit crosses meant that we created very few chances.

The most threatening we looked all afternoon was when we moved Bale to right midfield. Finally we had some pace in the wide areas and were able to stretch Fulham a little. IMO the best move would have been to move Bale to LM and have Dempsey on the right hand side. However, it showed that when we injected some pace out wide (plus the introduction of the excellent Tom Carroll in the middle) and had someone who was willing to beat somebody on the outside. We looked threatening and forced the goalkeeper into making some saves.

In conclusion, if Lennon is injured for any more games, I think it is vital that Bale plays LW for every game that Lennon is not playing in, to give us the ability to stretch teams and open up pockets of space. Bale especially helps with this as most teams normally triple up on him in the wide areas. If Lennon is back then we can play Bale through the centre.

Without this width, we struggle and this isn't something new for us, we struggled last season when we had to play say Pienaar and Kranjcar wide, or Modric and Kranjcar wide. In hindsight, we should have held on to young Andros Townsend.

A real tough one to take today but it is vital that we get back to our shape and playing the way we know how to play. COYS

This for me is spot on

 

[monkeynick]

Slightly rude of me but I couldn't be bothered to read all that. Are you saying that by having width we can stretch teams?

 

[Jamturk]

Agree about width being important in the way we play, which makes the decision to let Townsend go out on loan when we have no back up on the wing even more of a cock up by AVB.

Just a thought, but shouldn't a top manager be capable of changing the way his team plays according to the players he has available?

But if we are being honest, Townsend was'nt really cutting it was he.
He needed games in order to develop.
Throwing him into high pressure situations could have proved negative to his future.
He is playing in a team with nothing to lose, a forgiving crowd and a manager who knows him better than his own one does.
Even Jenas is flourishing in the same enviroment and we all know what our supporters thought of him.

 

[DEFchenkOE]

We have needed a bacup winger for years, how about in the Bernabeu when Lennon got injured? We had to rearrange the whole midfield as we had no cover. And a few years later we still have no cover, it's crazy for a team that often plays with fast wingers.

 

[shyfx2k2]

But if we are being honest, Townsend was'nt really cutting it was he.
He needed games in order to develop.
Throwing him into high pressure situations could have proved negative to his future.
He is playing in a team with nothing to lose, a forgiving crowd and a manager who knows him better than his own one does.
Even Jenas is flourishing in the same enviroment and we all know what our supporters thought of him.

The thing is though it's not so much the ability of the player but the fact that he has similar attributes to Lennon/Bale so we can make a like for like change and it doesnt mean changing the entire way we play

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Obviously another hugely disappointing performance today and what could turn out to be a very costly 3 points dropped. For me, Fulham were not spectacular at all and while they defended solidly, we rarely gave them anything to really think about.

There is a common theme which, in my opinion, is costing us big time and is consistent in all three of the games that we have lost recently. That theme is a lack of winger. Wing play is vital to our over all game and our pattern of play has been the same for a very long time. For the vast majority of the last 6 years, we have played with an out and out winger on one side and a guy cutting in on the other side. This changed for a while when we had both Bale and Lennon operating in the wide areas but we have had at least one wide man there for the vast majority of the time, basically for as long as Lennon has been in the first team (see also Simon Davies, Andy Reid etc).

What this gives us is width. The main advantage of this width is that it forces the opposition to 'seperate' in the middle of the park, they have to commit at least 1 midfielder and a full back to deal with our winger and full back combination, meaning there are gaps in which 1 of our CM's, our strikers and our opposite winger coming in from the other side can operate in, when in and around the opposition penalty area. This concept was key to our recent success and especially our success in the Champions League, where European teams aren't used to dealing with fast players willing to beat you on the outside.

So what happens when we don't play with width? As happened today, the game became congested. In the first half, while BAE and Sig did keep their width to a certain extent, we lacked pace. It was a difficult ask for BAE to operate as a LM as it isnt his natural game and Sig was non existent on the other side, mainly due to a lack of service and poor understanding with Naughton (neither of them can be blamed for that really as this was their first performance together).

In the second half, we had serious problems with penetration. Dempsey and Sig were too narrow. What this meant is that when Naugton especially got on the ball in the final third, the opposition penalty area was absolutely rammed with bodies, leaving no space for second balls to fall into. This, coupled with over hit crosses meant that we created very few chances.

The most threatening we looked all afternoon was when we moved Bale to right midfield. Finally we had some pace in the wide areas and were able to stretch Fulham a little. IMO the best move would have been to move Bale to LM and have Dempsey on the right hand side. However, it showed that when we injected some pace out wide (plus the introduction of the excellent Tom Carroll in the middle) and had someone who was willing to beat somebody on the outside. We looked threatening and forced the goalkeeper into making some saves.

In conclusion, if Lennon is injured for any more games, I think it is vital that Bale plays LW for every game that Lennon is not playing in, to give us the ability to stretch teams and open up pockets of space. Bale especially helps with this as most teams normally triple up on him in the wide areas. If Lennon is back then we can play Bale through the centre.

Without this width, we struggle and this isn't something new for us, we struggled last season when we had to play say Pienaar and Kranjcar wide, or Modric and Kranjcar wide. In hindsight, we should have held on to young Andros Townsend.

A real tough one to take today but it is vital that we get back to our shape and playing the way we know how to play. COYS

We didn't have a winger against Inter at home and that was possibly our best performance of the season. You don't loose games because you don't have a winger. Wing play isn't vital to our success. Hard work, discipline, Good movement off the ball and good use of the ball are.

 

[CJMurray]

We didn't have a winger against Inter at home and that was possibly our best performance of the season. You don't loose games because you don't have a winger. Wing play isn't vital to our success. Hard work, discipline, Good movement off the ball and good use of the ball are.

We did, Lennon played.

 

[shyfx2k2]

We didn't have a winger against Inter at home and that was possibly our best performance of the season. You don't loose games because you don't have a winger. Wing play isn't vital to our success. Hard work, discipline, Good movement off the ball and good use of the ball are.

I'd actually disagree and say that having at least 1 winger has been absolutely fundamental to our success. We look nowhere near as fluent without one and the space they create is incredibly valuable for our other players. Unfortunately we don't have a team capable of tip tapping their way through stubborn defenses.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

We did, Lennon played.

Sorry, you are right, I was thinking of Liverpool. I think that was a damn fine performance and we didn't have and "wingers".

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I'd actually disagree and say that having at least 1 winger has been absolutely fundamental to our success. We look nowhere near as fluent without one and the space they create is incredibly valuable for our other players. Unfortunately we don't have a team capable of tip tapping their way through stubborn defenses.

I don't think any one facet or position is integral to any teams success and certainly not our future success. Good coaching, hard work, discipline (ie players like Dembele and Dempsey not letting players walk past them when they should be fucking pressing and tracking them) intelligent movement are far more fundamental IMO.

We score hardly any goals from traditional wing play. I can't think of too many of the best teams right now playing with out and out wingers or utilising traditional wing play. So clearly it is not a necessity. Just another tactical facet that can be used. Arsenal and Chelsea haven't played with traditional wingers for years and they finish above us every season.

We lost today because we were physically jaded and emotionally spent. And because a player didn't press properly high up. Exactly the same problem as Thursday.

 

[SargeantMeatCurtains]

No.

Its Scott Parker ruining and slowing down our pattern of play that is the problem.

 

[shyfx2k2]

I don't think any one facet or position is integral to any teams success and certainly not our future success. Good coaching, hard work, discipline (ie players like Dembele and Dempsey not letting players walk past them when they should be fucking pressing and tracking them) intelligent movement are far more fundamental IMO.

We score hardly any goals from traditional wing play. I can't think of too many of the best teams right now playing with out and out wingers or utilising traditional wing play. So clearly it is not a necessity. Just another tactical facet that can be used. Arsenal and Chelsea haven't played with traditional wingers for years and they finish above us every season.

We lost today because we were physically jaded and emotionally spent. And because a player didn't press properly high up. Exactly the same problem as Thursday.

You're absolutely right that barely any of the top teams play with wingers, however that is mainly because they play fluid 4-3-3 systems with technically gifted players who can move the ball quickly and intelligently in the centre of the park, like Mata today with his flick over the top for Lampard's goal, lovely play.

Again, I'm not saying that it is the wingers directly winning us games with goals or assists, but by having players that will stay wide, it opens up gaps that allow the central players, such as Bale and Dembele to prosper. Today our attacking players had absolutely no space whatsoever and Fulham just stayed narrow, suffocating the space and shutting us down before we could shoot from the edge of the box (something Liverpool did as well and it is noticeable just how many times we shoot from outside the box, teams may be cottoning on to this).

Of course we need to be winning the individual battles and fatigue may have played a part, but all I will say is we always have problems when we have to play 2 non wingers in a midfield 4 due to injuries to Lennon and Bale.

 

[Dembele'Disciple]

Yeah, we're playing narrow as if we have the players to pass through teams while we don't. We have to spread it out and one of the main things we should do to do that is to play Bale on the left. He can come centrally when were on the counter but when the oposition has men behind the ball its important he gets chalk on those boots. Exactly how ronaldo has always played.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You're absolutely right that barely any of the top teams play with wingers, however that is mainly because they play fluid 4-3-3 systems with technically gifted players who can move the ball quickly and intelligently in the centre of the park, like Mata today with his flick over the top for Lampard's goal, lovely play.

Again, I'm not saying that it is the wingers directly winning us games with goals or assists, but by having players that will stay wide, it opens up gaps that allow the central players, such as Bale and Dembele to prosper. Today our attacking players had absolutely no space whatsoever and Fulham just stayed narrow, suffocating the space and shutting us down before we could shoot from the edge of the box (something Liverpool did as well and it is noticeable just how many times we shoot from outside the box, teams may be cottoning on to this).

Of course we need to be winning the individual battles and fatigue may have played a part, but all I will say is we always have problems when we have to play 2 non wingers in a midfield 4 due to injuries to Lennon and Bale.

I honestly don't think Fulham were that great today, I just think our movement was terrible and we didn't pose them any problems.

I've watched countless games where having wingers made no difference at all - such the second half of the last two seasons under Redknapp - and in fact made us predictable and easy to stop. Season before last we only won 9 of our home games and that was with Bale also playing as an out and out winger and with Modric and VDV.

 

[ethanedwards]

I honestly don't think Fulham were that great today, I just think our movement was terrible and we didn't pose them any problems.

I've watched countless games where having wingers made no difference at all - such the second half of the last two seasons under Redknapp - and in fact made us predictable and easy to stop. Season before last we only won 9 of our home games and that was with Bale also playing as an out and out winger and with Modric and VDV.

It's been like that most of the season, IMO we need another Michael Carrick.
There is a lot of huff'n'puff, but fuck all in the intelligece departmet, our midfield is to predictable.
The next bit is dedicated to Steve, who posted last week that he was underwhelmed by the football Barcelona played last week, I urge you to watch the second half again, and tell me what they did wrong.

 

[kcmei]

we really lack tat risk taking in the final we really need someone like suarez to always test their defenders. You keep trying and once in a while you will get your chance. Yesterday, we did not even have one chance because we didnt even try to take them on, except bale who was constantly outnumbered. Also evident of the fact that we have yet to receive a penalty this season, because we don't even try. My opinion is that if you are confident with keeping hold of the ball, then you can also keep hold of it even in the opposition box, it's just the mentality that it is normal to lose the ball in those areas making them weaker than they should be.

 

[laowaiandros]

OP is completely right imo.

We need to play with width. When we had modric and vdv we could go through the middle but we had electric pace on either side and that really opened up space for adebayor. The main reason ade has had such a terrible season for me is because the midfield doesnt supply him with anything anymore. If Bale plays in the middle we have no width and if teams close down his space then he becomes ineffective at times. If we go back to playing wingers and trying to get behind the full backs and allowing the likes of dembele, carroll, holtby, sig to play ahead of parker I think we will get the wins we need.