Jose Mourinho

[Styopa]

Just a bit mate but there will others who say it's entitlement strange people.

I guess they don't have an issue with Mourinho being entitled to his £288k a week though

 

[rossdapep]

I really believe that managers all over Europe would be chomping at the bit to manage our squad. One of the best front 3s in Europe on paper with Lucas, Bergwin (who still has loads of untapped potential) and Lamela in reserve, a phenomenal midfielder and talent in Ndombele supported by Lo Celso (one of the best midfielders in La Liga with Betis), Hojbjerg, Winks (who I maintain is still a good player), Sissoko and Skipp. The chance to revitalise the career of Dele who at one point was on course to become an all time great of English football and maybe even Sanchez too. Not to mention the quality of Reguilon and the products coming out of our academy. I'm not saying our squad is perfect, it definitely isn't. In my opinion though, there is so much to be excited about with regard to our playing group and hence 8th place in March accompanied by turgid football is just nowhere near good enough.

Exactly. There's enough quality that when actually playing within a good system and maximising their ability would be second or third in the league. We have our weaknesses in the squad but the good players are capable of dragging the average ones up.

I saw a Chelsea fan saying Spurs are exactly where they should be but thats just nonsense. We most certainly do not have a group of players that equals 8th place.

 

[Japhet]

I don't think any Spurs fans wanted Doherty to start given Arsenal's threat down their left. That's first! Having that Bale/Doherty combo on a flank which was vulnerable with a combo that can't defend isn't hindsight.

Maybe something happened behind the scenes that we don't know about re Aurier 'cause he was on the bench, but there's little to justify Doherty's inclusion in the first place, nor the fact that he wasn't hooked early doors. Don't know what Jose was thinking, and I think the team were asking the same question.

Doherty was hung out to dry in that setup. Bale isn't going to track back and Hojbjerg has too much to do in an undermanned midfield to be much use either. Everybody knew Tierney and Smith-Rowe would cause problems but Mourinho went ahead with a midfiels pivot and Doherty at LB. Why the fuck he didn't recognise the need for a RM (Sissoko) to shore up that position is beyond me, and failing that, if you're going to put that much pressure on one player, use one that can actually defend, namely Japhet Tanganga.

 

[rossdapep]

From my perspective, you shouldn't have to motivate someone when it comes to their passion. They get paid a fuck load of money to do something they truly love, why on earth would they require any external motivation?

I guess this is because I come from poverty and we don't have a choice but to be motivated to earn money and change our lives. It might be a bit unfair but I expect the same ethic from Millionaire footballers. Its a tough job, but its what they love to do so there really is no excuse for not being motivated.

But do players love playing when the strategy is attack minded where they are encouraged to get into good areas and show their best skills?

Or do they enjoy being told to not have the ball and work within a defensive structure?

It's not always as simple as this.

Today, I spoke to a professional player who said that he felt the mood and motivation was a little off and confidence wasn't there, yet they'd just won a big game the previous week. And their coach isn't a shouter, so they didn't have anyone to kind of shake them up a bit. This player told me he wanted the coach to do this. Players are humans and can wake up with a 'weird' feeling in which they can't get motivated or focused which will effect performance. It's not cause they choose to, its just life. It's up to the coach to give them a strategy that makes them feel more confidence and stability and he needs to read the body language of a player.

Players will naturally give more when they trust their system and know what they are doing because it's a chance for them to express themselves. If they think playing is becoming more of a chore theyll play with a heavier more.

 

[Japhet]

Yeah completely agree - we look very poorly coached in this regard.

You only have to look at Chelsea to see what a coach can do to a team in a short space of time. They aren't the finished article but they are so well coached at passing the ball out from the back with intelligent, well-drilled passing moves and shapes. We are the polar opposite and have never looked comfortable passing the ball out from the back since the day Jose joined.

It's a glaring weakness in his management and while it might be reductive to say 'the game has left him behind' it's certainly worrying how consistently poor we've been at this since he took over. Does he just not consider it to be of importance? Sure, our defensive players aren't the most technical, but if they were properly coached I'm sure they could pass the ball out far better than they are currently.

Again, the problem here (IMO) is always playing a midfield pivot. Put another player in there and you greatly increase the number of angles and passing options to enable passing out from the back. Just like further up the pitch though, we have mobility issues with players either standing still or hiding and that is a coaching issue and a team selection issue, both of which are squarely on Mourinho's shoulders.

 

[Albertbarich]

Again, the problem here (IMO) is always playing a midfield pivot. Put another player in there and you greatly increase the number of angles and passing options to enable passing out from the back. Just like further up the pitch though, we have mobility issues with players either standing still or hiding and that is a coaching issue and a team selection issue, both of which are squarely on Mourinho's shoulders.

I dont understand why we never play a flat midfield trio.

It would make winks and sissoko far more valuable as they would both be better and give n'dombele and holjberg more support. Lo celso could easily fit in to that too.

It would also give the full backs more room to push up and let the front three concentrate on attacking more.

This rigid 4231 has never looked convincing.

 

[King of Otters]

Yeah, but why is always a question of 'blame'? The fact that you've used that word suggests that it's not about exploring a solution to the problem, just that you want to hold someone responsible for it.

So often that word crops up. Why the confrontation? What fuels that? Why does it have to be hostile? Why does it have to be destructive?

That's the issue. It's what fuelled the whole 'agenda' narrative in the earlier parts of this thread. Because people seem unable to speak about it without making it feel like a crime has been committed and someone has to be punished for it. Instead of discussing the salient points, it's always about the person. There is a problem. We need a solution. So why do we obsess so much about who is to 'blame'? It's not a criminal trial.

When I talk about the player's mindset, I don't become destructive or insult or denigrate them as sportsmen or people or try to delegitimise their achievements. It's believing they have a problem that can be solved and exploring whether that idea has merit. When I was discussing Bale in the match thread, I didn't say he was shit, I said he hadn't contributed anything much. That's a conclusion drawn on my own observation of what he did in that match - I didn't blame him for what went wrong and I certainly didn't indict him as a player or individual as a whole.

So why are so many of the critiques of Mourinho so vociferously about 'blame'?

Blame. It's such a bullshit word to use in a reasoned discussion.

Just on this, now I've cooled down from you dragging me ever so slightly in this post, the question of blame seems to me the only relevant point worth discussing in this thread.

We all agree that what we're seeing currently on the pitch is unacceptable, where we diverge is the cause of that effect.

You point to structural issues at the club, intangibles such as mentality etc. Some say the players either aren't good enough or are weak mentally, yet others believe that what we're seeing on the pitch is caused by a manager who is not getting the best out of the team.

The short term fortunes of the club depend on those factors being identified and resolved. Some are easier to resolve than others, such as changing the manager, while others probably aren't resolvable at all and may not even be relevant, such as our supposed mentality issue.

That's the only discussion I'm interested in, and I don't think it implies any of the negativity that you've latched on to in your response. Semantics, on the other hand, doesn't interest me at all.

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

I find it all very confusing - I just can't decide whether he really does want the team to sit back or whether he doesn't but his methods are either confusing the players and/or are encouraging them to play a highly risk adverse game. It's very odd.

I'm firmly in the belief that the players are shit scared of making mistakes because, sure as day follows night, if they do, they'll be hung out to dry by he who is never responsible for boring, limp, pathetic & inexcusable displays.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

But do players love playing when the strategy is attack minded where they are encouraged to get into good areas and show their best skills?

Or do they enjoy being told to not have the ball and work within a defensive structure?

It's not always as simple as this.

Today, I spoke to a professional player who said that he felt the mood and motivation was a little off and confidence wasn't there, yet they'd just won a big game the previous week. And their coach isn't a shouter, so they didn't have anyone to kind of shake them up a bit. This player told me he wanted the coach to do this. Players are humans and can wake up with a 'weird' feeling in which they can't get motivated or focused which will effect performance. It's not cause they choose to, its just life. It's up to the coach to give them a strategy that makes them feel more confidence and stability and he needs to read the body language of a player.

Players will naturally give more when they trust their system and know what they are doing because it's a chance for them to express themselves. If they think playing is becoming more of a chore theyll play with a heavier more.

Fair enough and I know money doesn’t take these off days away from humans, it’s nature. But to seem utterly uninterested when you’re being paid to be, it becomes a bit of an issue. It’s not fair to forget that this is their job or career at the end of the day. They’re paid to at least show up.

Tactics will always be different depending on the manager, so that’s not an excuse to not perform. There’s aspects to my job that I absolutely hate but I have to do it because I’m paid too. Whether I’m happy or not I have to get the job done. This is the attitude I expect from our players. My main issue is it seems like sometimes, both under Poch and Jose, they don’t even bother trying to get the job done. If they don’t like the tactics fine but you’re not paid to like the tactics you’re paid to play football to the best of your ability.

That’s just one side of it. The other is a bit more personal. If they’re being asked to play a system they hate, then why do they seem so happy when it works? When we were top of the league we weren’t exactly playing like Man City. But they were allowed to express themselves then and more recently and we’ve only lost to Arsenal in 6. The slump was a bit of both misfortune and individual errors, but also a true lack of worksmanship on the pitch. I have never ever complained when we’ve lost a game fighting.

Thats when you have to start questioning their work ethic. When they want to be, they can be the best in the league. When they don’t, they languish in 8th place.

There’s really too many aspects to this entire situation to indulge in without seeming bias towards one side or the other. But it’s really fascinating to see everyone’s perspective, including yours.

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

We all see this in different ways, As for Mourinho, I like him and want him to stay but I must admit i've wobbled a bit but still I think i'd give him another season.

 

[rez9000]

Fair enough, I apologise if I have misquoted you.

But anyway, it's an important point, especially when people keep mentioning about "these" players, or "painful rebuild".

We have spent the best part of quarter of billion pounds on players since the Champions League final!

Where are the signs of that?

It's an excellent question.

I want to be clear that my focus re 'these' players is only inasmuch as they're the ones who happen to be here now. And I've not talked about a rebuild per se. Only that we're in for pain. The rebuild could be taken in the literal sense of buying a whole load of players, or it could be seen more metaphorically as a reform of less tangible aspects. My own view tends towards a need for the latter rather than the former.

Now I could go into organisational culture, which contrary to what some would have us believe, does exist. But it's basic stuff and any first-year business or management student will tell you that. Regardless of who the players are that, to my mind, is the larger, most pressing problem for Spurs right now.

Spending enough money could solve things, but it would be a lot of money, more than I think we're capable of without breaking the financial approach the chairman has chosen. Spending enough would negate the hampering effect of the organisational culture to actually get us over the line. It wouldn't deal with it until something was won, but it would do enough to reduce its 'drag'. But I don't see us spending that much, so we need to find another way of getting rid of that culture.

 

[rez9000]

Just on this, now I've cooled down from you dragging me ever so slightly in this post, the question of blame seems to me the only relevant point worth discussing in this thread.

We all agree that what we're seeing currently on the pitch is unacceptable, where we diverge is the cause of that effect.

You point to structural issues at the club, intangibles such as mentality etc. Some say the players either aren't good enough or are weak mentally, yet others believe that what we're seeing on the pitch is caused by a manager who is not getting the best out of the team.

The short term fortunes of the club depend on those factors being identified and resolved. Some are easier to resolve than others, such as changing the manager, while others probably aren't resolvable at all and may not even be relevant, such as our supposed mentality issue.

That's the only discussion I'm interested in, and I don't think it implies any of the negativity that you've latched on to in your response. Semantics, on the other hand, doesn't interest me at all.

I'm sorry if I was the cause of the heating, old boy.

I agree. I absolutely don't deny there's something wrong. And the thing of it is, that it might be both what I think it is and what you think it is. That's the real mindfuck.

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

I don't think Jose will ever get a fair crack of it at spurs although I like him personally I think fan power will prevail here and he will be gone in the summer, meaning we would need to start all over again probably staying outside the top four for the foreseeable future.

Sorry, but start what all over again? He's been with us for what, 18 months or so?

Are we improved since he took over?

Is the football better since he took over?

Are the players better, or happier since he took over?

Are we likely to better the 6th position we finished in last season?

Have his (7?) signings made our squad better/stronger? And I mean the ones we know he personally wanted. Ie Doherty, Hojbjerg, Hart, number 1 striker choice Vinicious, & the already disposed of Gedson.

Not the fortuitous signing of a suddenly available Reguilon, or the romantic Bale signing by Levy.


I'm not having a pop at you, sb. It's a genuine question because, from where I'm sitting, whether it's Mourinho or a new gaffer, I don't really see what has to be started all over again. As we're not exactly advanced from when he took over.

 

[spurs mental]

Been working all afternoon. Have I missed anything?

 

[shelfboy68]

Sorry, but start what all over again? He's been with us for what, 18 months or so?

Are we improved since he took over?

Is the football better since he took over?

Are the players better, or happier since he took over?

Are we likely to better the 6th position we finished in last season?

Have his (7?) signings made our squad better/stronger? And I mean the ones we know he personally wanted. Ie Doherty, Hojbjerg, Hart, number 1 striker choice Vinicious, & the already disposed of Gedson.

Not the fortuitous signing of a suddenly available Reguilon, or the romantic Bale signing by Levy.


I'm not having a pop at you, sb. It's a genuine question because, from where I'm sitting, whether it's Mourinho or a new gaffer, I don't really see what has to be started all over again. As we're not exactly advanced from when he took over.

I'm referring to another manager coming in starting new tactics and new set of players taking a number of windows to attain only for the club to go through the same cycle of achieving diddly squat.

 

[rez9000]

Been working all afternoon. Have I missed anything?

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

Yeah, I agree that he should have been more proactive in his substitutions on Sunday. Your suggestions are fair, but I would have also suggested Sissoko on for Son, pushing Ndombele further forward so that Moussa could help cover that right side with Doherty. Generally Mourinho has been good with substitutions lately, bringing on more attacking options when we look hungry to score and defensive options to shut up shop, but Sunday was a stinker.

And there is the glaring issue.

You're suggesting substitutions & moving players around, purely to make up for the shortfalls of a player who shouldn't have been selected in the first place.

If you don't select that player, or if you remove him because he's, umm, not very good. You don't have to move half the team around, and you don't have to ask others to cover for his ineptitude on the pitch.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if players could simply concentrate on their own games?

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Been working all afternoon. Have I missed anything?

Scott Parker is possibly a future manager candidate, but not for now but for later when he will become really good and probably end up at a different club.

 

[spurs mental]

the same cycle of achieving diddly squat.

This is it in a nutshell. We can change and start going through managers like packs of crisps again. The end result will more than likely be the same as if has been for the last 3 decades. Nothing. The odd cup run maybe and a season or two of overacheiving.

People say they're falling out of love with club now, wait until we get a new guy in, nothing changes and we go again

 

[spurs mental]

Scott Parker is possibly a future manager candidate, but not for now but for later when he will become really good and probably end up a different club.

I think if Potter is a supposed candidate then Parker is too, or he should be. I'd be happy to see him given a shot if Jose was to go this summer. Whether Kane and Sonny would feel the same I don't know.