Juande Ramos

[idontgetit]

It depends what you value and what you enjoy. There are various different tactical and coached approaches that teams can take, and at least having one I can appreciate and enjoy. From about three months of his career onwards I didn't find most of what AVB was doing or our performances awful, it is hard to teach élan, quick witted ingenuity, creative genius. As we found throughout most of last year too. But at least there was clearly an ethos in place and a method that yielded results, even without much quality in the team, and it wasn't about parking buses and praying either.

We didn't play team attacking football under AVB and I think that's why I really disliked his approach. We played team defensive football and we played team possession football but we never played team attacking football. It was press hard, win the ball, keep the ball, try give the ball to Bale as much as possible and hope he does something with it. We never created for Bale, we just gave him the ball as often as possible and left him to do it all. Football without purpose or intent. Obsession with technicality, clouding the true purpose of a Spurs side which should be to put the ball in the back of the oppositions net and to bloody well enjoy doing it. I get what he was trying but he was so wrong about our play on the ball it was never going to work out. And in the end it even impacted the bits he had previously got right. We were so insecure about an ability to score goals or threaten going forward that we went to pieces in desperation against any of the big sides that went ahead against us. If you can't defend comfortably then you cant attack comfortably and vice versa. Nah his philosophy was flawed in the first place and it was way too boring to get away with, certainly at Spurs

 

[Mullers]

I dunno if we read the same article but JJ was saying that he went along with it all but thought that Ramos was completely in the wrong for being inflexible. The player who got the most out of the manager came out and clearly stated that his man management was awful

We did read the same article, I even read it again before replying to you and it seems even more ridiculous the 2nd time around.

He says 'At half-time they cut out our Lucozade drinks - we weren't allowed those anymore because it wasn't 'natural'.
Complaining about cutting Lucozade drinks for crying out loud. Lucozade drinks are total shit, Ramos was right to cut them. With a little research, Jenas and others would find that out themselves.
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/sep/28/should-i-use-sports-drinks
The fact that Jenas doesn't know or doesn't care about this explains why he was inconsistent average/fairly good player and not a top international player.

Athletes at that level should really not need to be told how to eat healthy, they are getting thousands of pounds a week, they should KNOW IT. Ramos was trying to get the best out of the players, some of which were pretty average. They already help get Jol the sack, so I don't see how they can be telling a new man coming in that he should change his methods, at the very least you need to give it a try for a season and then diplomatically approach the manager, They are lucky to be in a job where they can get away with the antics they pull, like deliberately not playing for the manager, in other jobs they would get the sack.

They are pampered, spoilt, overpaid brats.

 

[0-Tibsy-0]

I think he's thinking of this humping which was away...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/7260372.stm

''Central defenders Jonathan Woodgate and Ledley King dropped out through injury and they were replaced by Younes Kaboul and Didier Zakora.''

Oh Fuck. Makes me shudder even now.

Even the journos got his name wrong as well.

 

[RichieS]

I think he's thinking of this humping which was away...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/7260372.stm

Ah..the game after the Cup final. Even that wasn't the humping the score suggested, it was a bazar game.

I was indeed.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

We didn't play team attacking football under AVB and I think that's why I really disliked his approach. We played team defensive football and we played team possession football but we never played team attacking football. It was press hard, win the ball, keep the ball, try give the ball to Bale as much as possible and hope he does something with it. We never created for Bale, we just gave him the ball as often as possible and left him to do it all. Football without purpose or intent. Obsession with technicality, clouding the true purpose of a Spurs side which should be to put the ball in the back of the oppositions net and to bloody well enjoy doing it. I get what he was trying but he was so wrong about our play on the ball it was never going to work out. And in the end it even impacted the bits he had previously got right. We were so insecure about an ability to score goals or threaten going forward that we went to pieces in desperation against any of the big sides that went ahead against us. If you can't defend comfortably then you cant attack comfortably and vice versa. Nah his philosophy was flawed in the first place and it was way too boring to get away with, certainly at Spurs

I think that's a very lazy, naive and massively over simplistic assessment of things under AVB. The true purpose of a Spurs side, of any side, is to win. That was the purpose and intent of AVB's methods, and considering the players he had (and didn't have), the circumstances of us at the time, I think his methods were successful. And this continual "everything was shit and then give it to Bale" nonsense extremely lacking in ability to separate reality from fiction. The fact that he got so much more out of Bale than anyone else had in his previous 5 years with us should be applauded for the managerial success it was. Keeping the ball is both an offensive and defensive strategy. It is the strategy employed by the most successful managers and teams of the last few decades. And because you or other fans don't have the patience or ability to understand it, or extract pleasure from it doesn't mean it lacks purpose or intent. It's not as if his strategy was park a bus and hope Bale can score on the break, at least having possession means watching your team play with the ball not watching the other team play with it for 70% of a game.

Of course he made some selection mistakes that didn't always help his tactical system, but he ended up with a team devoid of wit, craft and verve in any area and Pochettino has subsequently had the same problems extracting "thrills" from this team. Surely anyone with a modicum of common sense can see the creative problems AVB was wrestling with ? And anyone who had watched his Porto side or some of Zenit knows his intent and purpose is not to "not" put the ball in the net, but like any team, a coach can only do so much, look at how Dortmund struggled under the darling of the swift attack Klopp once they lost all their best attacking players.

Personally I understood it's purpose and it's intent and I find the obsession with slapstick end to end lottery football puzzling as it's never been a philosophy that has achieved anything sustainable in football and at least under AVB a very ordinary team was clocking up points at a very decent rate, even after we lost Bale.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Just wanted to say thanks to @Lufti for posting the Jenas Piece. I'd been mulling over setting up a blog for months, finally set it up a couple of weeks ago but then almost immediately hit writers block. That article, and the subsequent discussion was just the agitant I needed to get me over that hump.

Knowing how much he loves me, I'm sure Lufti is nauseous at the thought of being my inspirational muse, but I felt it would be remiss of me not to give him (and the rest of you chaps in here) due credit.

 

[Lufti]

Just wanted to say thanks to @Lufti for posting the Jenas Piece. I'd been mulling over setting up a blog for months, finally set it up a couple of weeks ago but then almost immediately hit writers block. That article, and the subsequent discussion was just the agitant I needed to get me over that hump.

Knowing how much he loves me, I'm sure Lufti is nauseous at the thought of being my inspirational muse, but I felt it would be remiss of me not to give him (and the rest of you chaps in here) due credit.

I don't dislike you BC, I just don't agree with some of your opinions. You always articulate yourself well and don't just neg rep people, I have no problem with that

 

[yusrisafri]

I can book a honeymoon package for the 2 of you if youre ok with that.

 

[whitesocks]

Ramos was a tactical genius.
The changes he made in the league cup final were stunning and won us the game.
He took off Chimbonda at LB for Hudd, Steed pulled back to a vague LB role and in the chaos we equalised.
What courage, but he was prepared to take chances.

He sacrificed the fullbacks on other occasions too, much to the players' disgust, but that is too bad. He wanted to win.

His problems were the language, a broken promise of the players of his choice in the summer of discontent, and Poyet who I feel fancied the job himself so let the issues boil over into revolt.

Ramos with Clive Allen or Hughton would have been a better team imo, as they would have had the players' trust.

 

[C0YS]

Ramos was a tactical genius.
The changes he made in the league cup final were stunning and won us the game.
He took off Chimbonda at LB for Hudd, Steed pulled back to a vague LB role and in the chaos we equalised.
What courage, but he was prepared to take chances.

He sacrificed the fullbacks on other occasions too, much to the players' disgust, but that is too bad. He wanted to win.

His problems were the language, a broken promise of the players of his choice in the summer of discontent, and Poyet who I feel fancied the job himself so let the issues boil over into revolt.

Ramos with Clive Allen or Hughton would have been a better team imo, as they would have had the players' trust.

Ramos was good at tinkering during a game, but not exactly a tactical genius.

I don't care how many players left, the performances and results in our 8 game 2 points start was inexcusable an ultimately came down to failing to set up a team that could create any kind of chances. I think Redknapp demonstrated that, as soon as he got the job he went back to basics, get crosses in, play with a solid proven partnership in the middle, give the striker support etc.

When things don't work a good manager knows they have to change things up. The easiest way of doing that is taking a few steps back before going forward. Even AVB understood this after dropping the high line midway through his first season (only to bring it back later).

 

[yankspurs]

Oh the last few pages make me laugh. The AVB bashing is soooo old and tiresome. So fucking what, we were boring. Boo fucking hoo. At least we had a clue with him and played good. Much rather that than the boring, clueless, horrendous shit we've had for the last 22 months in all honesty.

Players crying about methods? Hahahahahaha get the fuck over yourselves. You're making bank every week. Deal with it and do your damn job as best you can. Thats my opinion. Bitching anout Ramos, avb, lvg since their strict and rigid. Fuck outta here. Get to work. You play a fucking sport for a living.

 

[The Apprentice]

This threads been a good read this morning. A nice reminder that there are some rational, balanced posters left here.

 

[whitesocks]

Ramos was good at tinkering during a game, but not exactly a tactical genius.

I don't care how many players left, the performances and results in our 8 game 2 points start was inexcusable an ultimately came down to failing to set up a team that could create any kind of chances. I think Redknapp demonstrated that, as soon as he got the job he went back to basics, get crosses in, play with a solid proven partnership in the middle, give the striker support etc.

When things don't work a good manager knows they have to change things up. The easiest way of doing that is taking a few steps back before going forward. Even AVB understood this after dropping the high line midway through his first season (only to bring it back later).

Ramos was a dead man walking at that point - no-one was playing for him and hadn't for some time.
I think he needed someone new to get his message across as a priority.

Poyet is a very capable person, but he wanted to be no 1, and although it did not all land in his lap as it turned out, I think he gets an easy ride, when we review that period.

 

[sundanceyid10]

Oh the last few pages make me laugh. The AVB bashing is soooo old and tiresome. So fucking what, we were boring. Boo fucking hoo. At least we had a clue with him and played good. Much rather that than the boring, clueless, horrendous shit we've had for the last 22 months in all honesty.

Players crying about methods? Hahahahahaha get the fuck over yourselves. You're making bank every week. Deal with it and do your damn job as best you can. Thats my opinion. Bitching anout Ramos, avb, lvg since their strict and rigid. Fuck outta here. Get to work. You play a fucking sport for a living.

AVB was ok while he had Bale, without him it was f****** dire!