Juande Ramos

[danielneeds]

And the league cup win, what was that? A fluke?

To a certain extent cup wins do have an element of luck, but we did produce some good peformances in the run.

Overall his win percentage was dier and the squad disharmony was evident.

 

[Mullers]

Not even close to being the same mate. The players are all very happy under Poch and are enjoying training. Yes there is a lot of physical work involved, but there is far more to it than that. I'm sure you have seen the many video's released by Spurs TV of the players involved in fun games and stuff during training aswell as the hard running. I think MP has also proved player power means naff all to him. The club captain, the highest paid player, and the longest serving player all dropped like a stone, when push came to shove and the rest of the team didn't even bat an eyelid. Why? because they believe in the manager and what he is trying to do. Listen to the old interviews with Shaw, Rodriguez and Lambert to name but three of his ex players that really can't speak highly enough of him, and you can tell he is a man that the players will follow.

The thing with philosophies is that they take time to implement and involve far more than just a playing style on the pitch, and you can't completely change the natural instincts of players over night. Had he not started sulking at missing out on Hulk and Villa, when he got Soldado, Paulinho and Capoue, I think AVB would have probably been backed aswell. As it was he threw his toys out the pram, and lost interest. It wasn't long before the players picked up on that and lost all respect for the man and he lost any auhtority.

When MP went into Southampton they were far better prepared for the changes than we were, because fact is we have been a disjointed mess for years.

The clue is in the name, spurs TV. Of course they are not going to show any negative stuff.
Poch is fortunate to arrive at the time he did, he didn't want Fazio or Stambouli, he missed out on MS before the price went up and he missed out on Wellbeck and he never wanted Adebayor. Poch wasn't pleased with Levy's dillying and dallying so he told the board that we need to move early on targets. Levy knows he can't afford to upset a manager or change coach so soon after Sherwood and AVB, so he has backed him in his clearout

 

[Mullers]

To a certain extent cup wins do have an element of luck, but we did produce some good peformances in the run.

Overall his win percentage was dier and the squad disharmony was evident.

So you don't give him credit for winning our only trophy in a decade.

 

[Trix]

The clue is in the name, spurs TV. Of course they are not going to show any negative stuff.
Poch is fortunate to arrive at the time he did, he didn't want Fazio or Stambouli, he missed out on MS before the price went up and he missed out on Wellbeck and he never wanted Adebayor. Poch wasn't pleased with Levy's dillying and dallying so he told the board that we need to move early on targets. Levy knows he can't afford to upset a manager or change coach so soon after Sherwood and AVB, so he has backed him in his clearout

That's not the point. The point is it's not a total disciplinarian regime under Poch and there is also very much a fun element which makes training enjoyable.

The bit in bold is just laughable.

 

[Mullers]

That's not the point. The point is it's not a total disciplinarian regime under Poch and there is also very much a fun element which makes training enjoyable.

The bit in bold is just laughable.

Your evidence for there being a fun element is spurs TV. I am sure when AVB and Ramos were managers they showed players having fun as well.

Why is the bit in bold laughable?

 

[Trix]

Why is the bit in bold laughable?

Because it's not true.

And my evidence is not Spurs TV, I was just using it as an example.

 

[Mullers]

Because it's not true.

And my evidence is not Spurs TV, I was just using it as an example.

Ok so what is your evidence to support your arguement?

 

[TaoistMonkey]

Ok so what is your evidence to support your arguement?

Are you joking??

 

[Mullers]

Are you joking??

Nope.

 

[danielneeds]

So you don't give him credit for winning our only trophy in a decade.

Yes, he gets credit, just like George Graham got credit. They were both shit Spurs managers though.

 

[idontgetit]

What I get from the Jenas interview is that our players were extremely childish and spoilt.

Sounded more like Ramos was a nutter tbh mate

 

[Mullers]

Sounded more like Ramos was a nutter tbh mate

I disagree, I think had we employed Wenger the players would have given the same kind of response.

 

[danielneeds]

I disagree, I think had we employed Wenger the players would have given the same kind of response.

No because Wenger would have found ways of bringing people along with him - convincing key members of the dressing room of his methods, for example. The fact that Ramos is a jobbing manager does allude to mediocre leadership skills.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Not even close to being the same mate. The players are all very happy under Poch and are enjoying training.

The club captain, the highest paid player, and the longest serving player all dropped like a stone, .

So not everyone was happy. We know at least four players openly had run-ins or fall outs with Pochettino at least. So, whilst no two situations are ever identical, and it may be different players for different reasons and some the same for similar reasons, the fact is both managers have had met resistance from certain players (one we know was the same player) to their methods.

Listen to the old interviews with Shaw, Rodriguez and Lambert to name but three of his ex players that really can't speak highly enough of him, and you can tell he is a man that the players will follow.

This will often be the flip side to the mutiny. Those that can't hack it or aren't part of the plans will sulk and bitch, those that thrive or suddenly find themselves up the pecking order will give glowing testimonials.

And if you read about Pochettino you know what happened here with Kaboul and the gang, also happened to a degree at Espanyol.

The same thing happened under AVB, we had plenty of stories of players loving it, and then, when we took a couple of hammerings you get the disgruntled, or those that don't want to take the blame for their performances happy to see the finger pointed at the coach, especially when it collectively gets them off the hook for their part in the debacle.

AVB might have had the hump about being given Dempsey instead of Moutinho, especially if what our very reliable ITK says is true and he was lied to about the whole trying to buy him thing, I'd be fucking furious, and would probably resign on the spot if it was me. And surely it was Levy's job to make it abundantly clear where our financial limitations lay, and 50m players and wages was never going to happen etc ? And then be realistic and not demand CL qualification (as per AVB's own own words) when you swap Modric and VDV for Dembele and Dempsey.

The thing with philosophies is that they take time to implement and involve far more than just a playing style on the pitch, and you can't completely change the natural instincts of players over night.

I completely agree. Not saying otherwise.

 

[Trix]

So not everyone was happy. We know at least four players openly had run-ins or fall outs with Pochettino at least. So, whilst no two situations are ever identical, and it may be different players for different reasons and some the same for similar reasons, the fact is both managers have had met resistance from certain players (one we know was the same player) to their methods.



This will often be the flip side to the mutiny. Those that can't hack it or aren't part of the plans will sulk and bitch, those that thrive or suddenly find themselves up the pecking order will give glowing testimonials.

And if you read about Pochettino you know what happened here with Kaboul and the gang, also happened to a degree at Espanyol.

The same thing happened under AVB, we had plenty of stories of players loving it, and then, when we took a couple of hammerings you get the disgruntled, or those that don't want to take the blame for their performances happy to see the finger pointed at the coach, especially when it collectively gets them off the hook for their part in the debacle.

AVB might have had the hump about being given Dempsey instead of Moutinho, especially if what our very reliable ITK says is true and he was lied to about the whole trying to buy him thing, I'd be fucking furious, and would probably resign on the spot if it was me. And surely it was Levy's job to make it abundantly clear where our financial limitations lay, and 50m players and wages was never going to happen etc ? And then be realistic and not demand CL qualification (as per AVB's own own words) when you swap Modric and VDV for Dembele and Dempsey.



I completely agree. Not saying otherwise.

Not saying everyone was happy, I'm saying that is the case now. Also worth noting that every manager is going to fall out with players and we know that that happened with MP and certain players last season. I do however think it speaks volumes that the players we are talking about were effectively frozen out and yet kept everything in house, when usually this kind of thing finds it's way onto the back pages very quickly.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Of course the board has to back the manager, without that you have no chance, but to what extent to do they back them?

A leader cannot just tell people to follow them, he has to inspire, cajole, sometimes bark, but he has to inspire a certain level of devotion, and certainly the upmost respect. Ramos may have done great things at Sevilla, but he severely misjudged the make-up of our particular dressing room.

Sure it would be nice to have 25 talented players, totally dedicated to their craft, always upstanding professionals, and interested in bettering themselves tactically and physically every day - but they play for Barcelona - and get paid accordingly. A manager has to work with what he is given, and if that is dogshit, he still has to work with it until he can affect changes in an evolutionary way.

Ramos just didn't grasp this, and the rest of his career suggests Sevilla was very much a culmination of multiple factors coalescing together, rather than simply being a product of his managerial brilliance.

How about the players didn't grasp that if they actually were open to change, to work harder, to live healthier, it may just have improved them ?

The environment should be created by the board in which a coach can thrive. Ramos and AVB were winners. They had won things. And not with richer clubs than us. We hired them because we believed in their philosophies, we'd seen the results. But it is utterly pointless if you don't make sure the whole club has the same philosophy and those coaches understand the limitations and parameters the club operates in.

Under AVB we were doing well. Despite losing two world class players we'd finished 5th with our highest points, we then lose another world class player but are still chugging along picking up points and with the exception of a couple of bad results (to teams who were doing the same to others too) we were not playing badly either. Those who expected thrill a minute football might disagree, but anyone with a genuine understanding of football, knows what we were playing under AVB was not "bad" football. It had structure, coaching and tactical input was evident etc.

 

[Trix]

I think it's also worth adding that there were a few players not happy with AVB right from the off, I don't know the why's or wherefores, but certain players made their feelings very aware to Levy very quickly.

 

[Trix]

How about the players didn't grasp that if they actually were open to change, to work harder, to live healthier, it may just have improved them ?

The environment should be created by the board in which a coach can thrive. Ramos and AVB were winners. They had won things. And not with richer clubs than us. We hired them because we believed in their philosophies, we'd seen the results. But it is utterly pointless if you don't make sure the whole club has the same philosophy and those coaches understand the limitations and parameters the club operates in.

Under AVB we were doing well. Despite losing two world class players we'd finished 5th with our highest points, we then lose another world class player but are still chugging along picking up points and with the exception of a couple of bad results (to teams who were doing the same to others too) we were not playing badly either. Those who expected thrill a minute football might disagree, but anyone with a genuine understanding of football, knows what we were playing under AVB was not "bad" football. It had structure, coaching and tactical input was evident etc.

Completely agree and I think this has finally been understood by Levy, which is why everything from the ground up has been changed.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

What's offside?

I thought we played bad under AVB so I don't have an understanding of football. Certainly not as much as other superior supporters.

 

[Trix]

What's offside?

I thought we played bad under AVB so I don't have an understanding of football. Certainly not as much as other superior supporters.

I don't believe we played bad, but it was boring. Stats are not overly relevant, but a record points tally doesn't play out with a side playing badly. Attritional and unimaginative.....yes, bad....no.