Juande Ramos

[THFCSPURS19]

I don't believe we played bad, but it was boring. Stats are not overly relevant, but a record points tally doesn't play out with a side playing badly. Attritional and unimaginative.....yes, bad....no.

Fair point. To me 'boring' and 'bad' in football terms is much of the same thing. Even though AVB got us record points I still think we played badly, same largely with Pochettino, although I still much prefer us under Poch.

It reminds me of the accusations made towards Chelsea last season- they played defensive against big teams but they always had the ability to play attractive football if they turned it on.

 

[danielneeds]

How about the players didn't grasp that if they actually were open to change, to work harder, to live healthier, it may just have improved them ?

The environment should be created by the board in which a coach can thrive. Ramos and AVB were winners. They had won things. And not with richer clubs than us. We hired them because we believed in their philosophies, we'd seen the results. But it is utterly pointless if you don't make sure the whole club has the same philosophy and those coaches understand the limitations and parameters the club operates in.

Under AVB we were doing well. Despite losing two world class players we'd finished 5th with our highest points, we then lose another world class player but are still chugging along picking up points and with the exception of a couple of bad results (to teams who were doing the same to others too) we were not playing badly either. Those who expected thrill a minute football might disagree, but anyone with a genuine understanding of football, knows what we were playing under AVB was not "bad" football. It had structure, coaching and tactical input was evident etc.

I stand by my original point - it's your job as a manger to convince the majority of your players of your methods. Obviously you'll never reach everyone, but that's why you prune and weed the flock. Ramos clearly failed at this element of leadership.

I never even mentioned AVB which is a totally different case to Ramos.

From the info I could glean Ramos got sacked because because he came over and just assumed he could transplant the blueprint he had at Sevilla, with no sense of adapting it to the culture of his new club or the country he was working in. Any leader in sport or business needs to understand the environment they are currently in, and not just seek to recreate systems from previous glories.

AVB seemed to still have the squad with him, but his relationship with Levy obviously broke down to the point where it became untenable - how much blame each party should
take is hard to ascertain.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I stand by my original point - it's your job as a manger to convince the majority of your players of your methods. Obviously you'll never reach everyone, but that's why you prune and weed the flock. Ramos clearly failed at this element of leadership.

I never even mentioned AVB which is a totally different case to Ramos.

From the info I could glean Ramos got sacked because because he came over and just assumed he could transplant the blueprint he had at Sevilla, with no sense of adapting it to the culture of his new club or the country he was working in. Any leader in sport or business needs to understand the environment they are currently in, and not just seek to recreate systems from previous glories.

AVB seemed to still have the squad with him, but his relationship with Levy obviously broke down to the point where it became untenable - how much blame each party should
take is hard to ascertain.

Fair comments about AVB.

I am not saying Ramos, or any manager, doesn't make mistakes, but when we were picking up results, smashing Arsenal and then beating Chelsea to win the Cup there was none of the dissenting voices. I remember there was talk at the time about Ramos's double sessions and the dividends they were paying off etc. Then when we'd won the cup there were murmerings that players had gone to him and requested he lighten up.

We lose Defoe, Keane and then Berbatov, end up with Pav, Bent and Campbell. Results were much worse than performances - which weren't that bad at all IMO. But fans rarely manage to separate results and performances, we want our tottenham back gets sung in unison and now players and Levy are getting abuse. It's very easy for a powerful collective to point a finger and say "sir sir mr Ramos's shitty drink is causing us to lose sir".

Remember that fucking wanker Bentley giving an interview to the BBC (Gabby Yorath I think) at the time and pointing the finger at Ramos. never mind that his half arsed performances were part of the problem. Or Woodgate being asked a question "do Spurs lack leadership" and him mumbling "yes". Well why wasn't he providing some ?

I stand by my point. If you hire a manager because of his philosophy, then create the best environment for that to succeed. Just doing a bit extra work and having to change your diet to improve your fitness is not a reason for players to get a manager ousted. You tell them to listen and do the job they are paid to do for the guy who's in charge of them. And as long as performances aren't clueless incoherent nonsense you judge on that, not results, which can be very fickle.

 

[eddiebailey]

I do however think it speaks volumes that the players we are talking about were effectively frozen out and yet kept everything in house, when usually this kind of thing finds it's way onto the back pages very quickly.

Yes. I'm not a fan of the football Poch has us playing, but as a human being he is clearly rather more impressive than AVB.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Yes, that has been rather impressive.

I don't think it was anyone's interest to advertise themselves/their client/their asset to be sold as a work shy wanker who causes trouble on the dressing room.

The player's who's problems were public under AVB - Adebayor - was the same player whose problems were most publicised under Pochettino. Except this season everyone on here also knew about Kaboul, Lennon and Capoue as well, so I'm not sure if we could say it was entirely "contained".

 

[danielneeds]

Fair comments about AVB.

I am not saying Ramos, or any manager, doesn't make mistakes, but when we were picking up results, smashing Arsenal and then beating Chelsea to win the Cup there was none of the dissenting voices. I remember there was talk at the time about Ramos's double sessions and the dividends they were paying off etc. Then when we'd won the cup there were murmerings that players had gone to him and requested he lighten up.

We lose Defoe, Keane and then Berbatov, end up with Pav, Bent and Campbell. Results were much worse than performances - which weren't that bad at all IMO. But fans rarely manage to separate results and performances, we want our tottenham back gets sung in unison and now players and Levy are getting abuse. It's very easy for a powerful collective to point a finger and say "sir sir mr Ramos's shitty drink is causing us to lose sir".

Remember that fucking wanker Bentley giving an interview to the BBC (Gabby Yorath I think) at the time and pointing the finger at Ramos. never mind that his half arsed performances were part of the problem. Or Woodgate being asked a question "do Spurs lack leadership" and him mumbling "yes". Well why wasn't he providing some ?

I stand by my point. If you hire a manager because of his philosophy, then create the best environment for that to succeed. Just doing a bit extra work and having to change your diet to improve your fitness is not a reason for players to get a manager ousted. You tell them to listen and do the job they are paid to do for the guy who's in charge of them. And as long as performances aren't clueless incoherent nonsense you judge on that, not results, which can be very fickle.

I think we'll have to disagree on the performances being better than results - both after the cup win with Berba and Keane and the next season without them, performances were terrible, rancid even.

But I very much agree with your general point that no manager can succeed without support from the board and owners in creating the culture and indentity of a club. I just don't think that in Ramos' case this was the problem.

It was purely poor communication skills and a failure to adapt and assimilate properly. If he'd gone somewhere else afterwards and created a Sevilla MkII I'd be prepared to concede it was more us than him, but he's been nothing more than a jobbing coach ever since.

I will say the margins can be fine though. I was in Eindhoven the night we lost on pens to PSV, after a brilliant rally in extra time, where only a couple of worldies from Gomes kept out Malbranque and Jenas. Who knows where we would have finished if we could have got through that? Maybe even lifting the cup (two average teams in th final that year - Zenit and Rangers). And then with two trophies in the cabinet maybe more of the squad would have come over to his methods. You never know...

 

[eddiebailey]

I don't think it was anyone's interest to advertise themselves/their client/their asset to be sold as a work shy wanker who causes trouble on the dressing room.

The player's who's problems were public under AVB - Adebayor - was the same player whose problems were most publicised under Pochettino. Except this season everyone on here also knew about Kaboul, Lennon and Capoue as well, so I'm not sure if we could say it was entirely "contained".

They knew because Poch rather pointedly did not play them, but despite the ITK flying about nothing made the press. I recall Adebayor expressing gratitude for Poch's support with his family problems

 

[idontgetit]

I disagree, I think had we employed Wenger the players would have given the same kind of response.

I dunno if we read the same article but JJ was saying that he went along with it all but thought that Ramos was completely in the wrong for being inflexible. The player who got the most out of the manager came out and clearly stated that his man management was awful

 

[ShayLaB]

IIRC between the Cup Final and the sacking we won 3 of 22 games.

 

[idontgetit]

How about the players didn't grasp that if they actually were open to change, to work harder, to live healthier, it may just have improved them ?

The environment should be created by the board in which a coach can thrive. Ramos and AVB were winners. They had won things. And not with richer clubs than us. We hired them because we believed in their philosophies, we'd seen the results. But it is utterly pointless if you don't make sure the whole club has the same philosophy and those coaches understand the limitations and parameters the club operates in.

Under AVB we were doing well. Despite losing two world class players we'd finished 5th with our highest points, we then lose another world class player but are still chugging along picking up points and with the exception of a couple of bad results (to teams who were doing the same to others too) we were not playing badly either. Those who expected thrill a minute football might disagree, but anyone with a genuine understanding of football, knows what we were playing under AVB was not "bad" football. It had structure, coaching and tactical input was evident etc.

lol I'd take you up on that one, the AVB football was awful. I mean it did certainly have structure, coaching and tactical input but that doesn't mean it wasn't awful. Anyway that's a discussion for another thread.

 

[Spurger King]

I don't believe we played bad, but it was boring. Stats are not overly relevant, but a record points tally doesn't play out with a side playing badly. Attritional and unimaginative.....yes, bad....no.

It was certainly very dull in home games. Away from home I remember us being quite exciting and extremely successful under AVB.

 

[punkisback]

Yes. I'm not a fan of the football Poch has us playing, but as a human being he is clearly rather more impressive than AVB.

Both are better men than Sherwood.

 

[eddiebailey]

Both are better men than Sherwood.

Sherwood was… different. But whatever his failings he had AVB figured out sooner than most. Got to give him kudos for that.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Sherwood was… different. But whatever his failings he had AVB figured out sooner than most. Got to give him kudos for that.

As someone obstructing his career path you mean ?

 

[RichieS]

Fair comments about AVB.

I am not saying Ramos, or any manager, doesn't make mistakes, but when we were picking up results, smashing Arsenal and then beating Chelsea to win the Cup there was none of the dissenting voices. I remember there was talk at the time about Ramos's double sessions and the dividends they were paying off etc. Then when we'd won the cup there were murmerings that players had gone to him and requested he lighten up.

We lose Defoe, Keane and then Berbatov, end up with Pav, Bent and Campbell. Results were much worse than performances - which weren't that bad at all IMO. But fans rarely manage to separate results and performances, we want our tottenham back gets sung in unison and now players and Levy are getting abuse. It's very easy for a powerful collective to point a finger and say "sir sir mr Ramos's shitty drink is causing us to lose sir".

Remember that fucking wanker Bentley giving an interview to the BBC (Gabby Yorath I think) at the time and pointing the finger at Ramos. never mind that his half arsed performances were part of the problem. Or Woodgate being asked a question "do Spurs lack leadership" and him mumbling "yes". Well why wasn't he providing some ?

I stand by my point. If you hire a manager because of his philosophy, then create the best environment for that to succeed. Just doing a bit extra work and having to change your diet to improve your fitness is not a reason for players to get a manager ousted. You tell them to listen and do the job they are paid to do for the guy who's in charge of them. And as long as performances aren't clueless incoherent nonsense you judge on that, not results, which can be very fickle.

You don't get humped at home by Birmingham and Newcastle whilst putting in a good performance. And I was at the 0-1 against Hull and 0-0 against Wigan, both of which were diabolical.

I would agree with you if you were talking about AVB though.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You don't get humped at home by Birmingham and Newcastle whilst putting in a good performance. And I was at the 0-1 against Hull and 0-0 against Wigan, both of which were diabolical.

I would agree with you if you were talking about AVB though.

That Birmingham game was farcical. We absolutely mullered them, despite having Keane sent off for nothing, and they won with a ridiculous worldy from about 30 yards if I remember rightly.

 

[NEVILLEB]

If all your Managers fail then they are not being given the conditions to succeed.

Look higher up the chain...

 

[Bus-Conductor]

lol I'd take you up on that one, the AVB football was awful. I mean it did certainly have structure, coaching and tactical input but that doesn't mean it wasn't awful. Anyway that's a discussion for another thread.

It depends what you value and what you enjoy. There are various different tactical and coached approaches that teams can take, and at least having one I can appreciate and enjoy. From about three months of his career onwards I didn't find most of what AVB was doing or our performances awful, it is hard to teach élan, quick witted ingenuity, creative genius. As we found throughout most of last year too. But at least there was clearly an ethos in place and a method that yielded results, even without much quality in the team, and it wasn't about parking buses and praying either.

 

[danielneeds]

That Birmingham game was farcical. We absolutely mullered them, despite having Keane sent off for nothing, and they won with a ridiculous worldy from about 30 yards if I remember rightly.

I think he's thinking of this humping which was away...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/7260372.stm

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think he's thinking of this humping which was away...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/7260372.stm

Ah..the game after the Cup final. Even that wasn't the humping the score suggested, it was a bazar game.