Lance Armstrong - to be stripped of his titles

[Misfit]

Only problem I have with him was his bullshit stance on "drugs cheats". If it turns out he's one himself then he's guilty of the very worst crime in terms of public character flaws. Total fucking hypocrite.

What do they do with the titles if they do strip him of them? Give them to the best rider who wasn't juicing, probably people down in the mid-20 at best.

Also, as has been dicussed, to basically hand out 6 month bans (which will allow these men to keep their contracts and money from them and then go racing again) to known and systematic juicers in order to crack down on "doping" is bullshit. What is the point of all this tbh. I agree with Armstrong in that this is a witch-hunt. That's about all we agree on. Bit weird why the US agency is going so hard at it though? Weren't there suggestions of a personal grudge between Armstrong and the head of it?

I wonder how this will impact on his Livestrong foundation though. Donations might very well take a hit.

Also, let's not kid ourselves here, juicing in road cycling has always gone on, and not just in the darker corners. "Convicts of the Road" etc back in the 20's right through to "Pot Belge" in the 90's. Some of the greats don't even bother to deny it. It's still going on. However, for about 20 yrs there, was it still worth watching? Not really. It became a farce and the sport was in danger of eating itself. For once I'm grateful for the IOC. Their threats to the UCI seem to have worked over the last few yrs. I think the blood passport has reduced the use of EPO, don't think it's cut down on blood doping much though. I don't think anyone is remotely close to pulling the wattage from the noughties. No eye-popping performance for a few yrs in terms of wattage etc. Something is working for now anyway.

Personally, I think they were all juicing then. It was a joke. What Armstrong did was still exceptional but if he did it without juicing then he's a medical miracle. Why this is all still going on I don't know. Where does it end, everyone in at least the top 10 in those yrs were also pushing as much shit into themselves as possible. Who is next after Armstrong? Are those TdF's just expunged completely from the record books. Disgraceful period of the sport and there are already new techniques being pushed of course.

It's a major reason why I've always prefered track cycling tbh. As with all sports, it's hardly squeaky clean and doping occurs, but it seems less widespread. At least there's a semblance of propriety. Not an all out orgy of juicing and riders collapsing dead in hotel rooms etc.

 

[Misfit]

If 1,000 people call you a **** does that make you a ****, even if hundreds of tests taken over time proved you were not a ****?

Innocent until proven guilty works well in this country. If this was a legal case, would he be acquitted on the basis of reasonable doubt?

I suggest, given the information available, the answer would be yes.

Prove it beyond reasonable doubt and I'll batter him. Until then, I won't.

Indeed. Hard to argue with this. We're all allowed our opinions but the whole thing seems off. The only evidence seems to be
personal testimony. Eyewitness accounts basically. "I saw lance using EPO during training" ... "Now can I please be excused from conviction?" .. ad infinitum. Just doesn't sit right to me.

We're dealing with 2 things here though aren't we? One is a damning statement or two obliterating Armstrong's character, regardless of the source, which can and would impact his foundation etc. Then there's the reality that this is the only evidence there is. The hundred/faazends of tests he took will be ignored for obvious reasons. However, we're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars here. The details will get quickly lost. Armstrong has rightly thought that he simply can't expose himself to that. Whether those statements are true or not don't really come into it now.

 

[Misfit]

Of course, there are the re-tests on LA's blood and urine samples which show EPO markers. But anyways, as I said, the entire Peleton were off their tits on God knows what. He beat them all very comfortably. Smashed them a few times. So yeah...

Just thankful that that period is over. Even by pro-cycling standards it was taking the absolute piss.

 

[Spurs1960]

The guy would be knackered in the mountains one day and fresh as a daisy the next cycling away from specialist climbers and general clasification team mates. The body does not recover like that without assistance.

Have always believed Floyd Landis about the team blood transfusions with Armstrong being the ring leader and with Armstrong accepting that he can no longer beat the evidence of 10 team mates testifying against him and the rumours of 3 positive drug tests, it appears Landis was right all along. If he had received a criminal conviction then certainly in this country he would not be allowed association with a charity.

If you don't crack down on drug cheats, even if you can only prove they were cheating years later when enforcement technology catches up with the cheaters, you are accepting taking drug taking and drug takers. You are accepting that children should grow up knowing cheating is ok, cheating is the way to win, cheating is something you can get away with. Sportsmen are heros to children and should at all timers set an example as to how to behave, otherwise they should get out of the sport.

Armstrong is a big name so of course they are going to persue him. The authorities have to make a statement that nobody is immune and what better way to do that then show a 7 times tour winner and in some peoples eyes the greatest cyclist ever was nothing more than a common cheat.

Two year bans are a waste of time, it should be lifetime bans for all, in whatever sport. Chambers should never have been allowed to compete at the Olympics.

There was an article in the paper the other day about gene manipulation which they can successfully do on mice now, this will find it's way eventually into the "win at all costs" cheats training schedules. We should never have allowed Dolly the Sheep to be cloned.

 

[Misfit]

S60 - I don't disagree. However, they're basically giving nearly a dozen of the exact same cheaters they claim Armstrong is a slap on the wrist with unfathomably lenient bans which mean they won't even lose their current contracts and won't miss many, if any, major races.

This has seemingly gone way way beyond just cracking down on doping. This is personal to a lot of people, imo. A very good example of why not being a right ****y **** (as Armstrong has been known to be within cycling for yonks) might get you a little grease in the future. Were he a less robust personality I think this is let slide. That sounds terrible and it is but the proof is in the pudding. They're offering near total immunity to several riders just as guilty of the charges laid against LA. Sure his profile is higher but really, the other names involved here aren't exactly scrubs in pro-cycling.

Nah, this isn't about doping all that much, imo.

On another note, by pleading no-contest, effectively pleading guilty. We'll not know all the ins and outs now. No hearing etc. Doubt still swirls around. Donations to Livestrong are through the roof anyway. 25 times greater than the average apparently.

 

[Spurs1960]

Not contesting means guilty, there is no doubt whatsoever.

I can fully understand offering an amnesty if you can bring a huge case into the public domain. You have to do that if you are going to improve the image of cycling. You had the Germans asking if Bradley was on drugs during the Tour de France. Nobody trusts results so something has to be done, so you take the biggest cheat down. It is also claimed and was claimed by Landis that Armstrong was the ring leader for the team, that he recruited other riders into his web to cheat.

Contador should not be allowed to compete but here he is, another cheat cycling in the Vuelta. The sport is a joke at the moment.

 

[Misfit]

Indeed it is. Even Brailsford, after talking a big game, went and then hired a few, including the team doctor, with dodgy pasts. Not sure you can get away from it. It's that widespread now that virtually anyone and everyone is tainted, even if only by association, by doping. Millar riding for GB is hardly following through with the holier than thou attitude for a kickoff. Nah, ultimately winning will always be the most important thing.

Utterly shit but there you go. The sport will always have doping, it always has done.

On a sidenote, I do hope none of our boys are doing it. The wattage they're pulling aren't at all out of the ordinary etc which hopefully suggests that nothing is going on but who knows. Very dangerous to have sporting heroes. Incredibly so if they're involved in cycling though. You just never know where or when the shit will hit the fan. They could be retired for a decade and then BAM.

As for amnesty - possibly. I don't think though, having spoken to a couple of people who aren't massively into cycling, many are convinced that a sport which gives known and proven dopers a free pass is actually capable of cleaning itself up. This is the point where the sport sits now? The only way they can find and prove doping is by openly giving even more dopers amnesty. This is the moral mountain they've managed to climb? Jesus. They'd better wise up and fast. Even if they do it might be too late. Unfortunately, even now, those who get caught doping are only usually done so through incompetence.

As you say, it's a joke.

 

[AW?]

What a mess. So what happens now do they give the Tour wins to the next doper down the line ie Ullrich etc? I'm completely confused by the whole thing.

 

[Spurs1960]

Yeah it's a total mess because any victory is simple questioned. Cycling became the new athletics. Chinese doping, East German federation doping, That Finish 5000, & 10,000 winner in the 70's, weightlifters, American sprinters. There is no way you have a guy yards better than anyone else over years unless he or she is doping, unless they are a freak like Bolt. He is the best because a tall guy has learnt how to run, he is supposed to be to tall for a sprinter.

I agree there will always be win at all cost people and no Millar and Chambers should not have represented Great Britian. In a lesser vein it was disappointing that selfish athletes who were injured competed in their home Olympics because they wanted to experience it, when they should have been replaced by fit athletes who could give their best.

The fame and celebrity culture has a lot to answer for.

 

[Misfit]

Yeah it's a total mess because any victory is simple questioned. Cycling became the new athletics. Chinese doping, East German federation doping, That Finish 5000, & 10,000 winner in the 70's, weightlifters, American sprinters. There is no way you have a guy yards better than anyone else over years unless he or she is doping, unless they are a freak like Bolt. He is the best because a tall guy has learnt how to run, he is supposed to be to tall for a sprinter.

I agree there will always be win at all cost people and no Millar and Chambers should not have represented Great Britian. In a lesser vein it was disappointing that selfish athletes who were injured competed in their home Olympics because they wanted to experience it, when they should have been replaced by fit athletes who could give their best.

The fame and celebrity culture has a lot to answer for.

Very good point that, and something RVC has been criticised for. Overlooking a few athletes who simply performed better in the last yr etc. Think he's done a good job overall but eh, some balls were dropped methinks. The individual athletes obviously didn't complain. Most of the are necessarily driven and selfish.

Anyhoo, the UCI, under pressure from the IOC, seem to actually be serious about trying to clean things up as best they can. The blood passports are an overdue step but at least they're in place now and we can see that the overall pace of the TdF etc has come down rather dramtically. Several minutes slower on every stage.

As long as they realise this is just the start, we might be able to get back to some middle ground of propriety over the next decade or two.

Sport in general has a ways to go though as highlighted by the Chambers case. I've no problem with life bans. That should be the norm. But then the BOA were scolded like infants publically for taking such an "outrageous position".

Let's not even get into the NA Juicing Leagues or our very own premiership Gods, who, if not taking PEDs, are coked up to the eyeballs with whatever illegal narcotics and protected by their clubs and the PFA.

 

[Misfit]

What a mess. So what happens now do they give the Tour wins to the next doper down the line ie Ullrich etc? I'm completely confused by the whole thing.

Dunno. Probably best to expunge them from the records. Unless they fancy finding the one guy who somehow managed to finish in the top 30 without 2 extra litres of blood pumping round their body.

 

[Spurs1960]

What a mess. So what happens now do they give the Tour wins to the next doper down the line ie Ullrich etc? I'm completely confused by the whole thing.

The gave out on Sky Sports that the 1993 Tour de France winner would be the guy who finished 5th!

 

[yawa]

What a mess. So what happens now do they give the Tour wins to the next doper down the line ie Ullrich etc? I'm completely confused by the whole thing.

This is quite amusing

 

[al_pacino]

TBH Escartin is lucky to not have a finger pointed at him on that picture riding for the team that he did. A couple of others too.

No failed tests though

 

[Col_M]

 

[Real_madyidd]

Can't see a pic there, just a red cross (why does that happen?).

Do they still do Blood swapping? Is that considered doping?

 

[Col_M]

Can't see a pic there, just a red cross (why does that happen?).

Do they still do Blood swapping? Is that considered doping?

Red Cross against mine? I always wondered why too.

Blood Swapping is not doping, it depends what you do with it.

 

[Real_madyidd]

Red Cross against mine? I always wondered why too.

Blood Swapping is not doping, it depends what you do with it.

Yeah, your one.

I would imagine that they filter out all of the illegal drugs... Shouldn't it count as doping? It's sinister and really suspicious anyway, allowing people to perform above what is naturally possible ( and to recover stupidly quickly)

 

[OmarsComing]

why wouldnt he want to clear his name?

no smoke without fire.

Hey real madyidd still think I'm dumb?

"Most sophisticated and professional doping ever in sport"

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I'm a huge Tour De France fan, always have been, and I think even with drugs it is still the single most impressive sporting achievement - just finishing it, never mind winning. I've always understood, almost defended the doping as an almost necessary evil for an event which requires almost super human qualities.

But I have come to resent the dopers more and more with each year. The courage that those who don't dope show does not deserve to be cheated out of it's merit by someone who has. It's that simple.

Cycling IMO takes a disproportionate share of negative publicity for doping, as I believe doping is just as rife in athletics too. The doping is now so sophisticated that testing athletes at Olympic games is meaningless I believe. A doper would have to be stupid to still have it in his system as a traceable substance for a major competition.