Let's talk about the wage bill

[Indacupfortottenham]

Look i feel we are so close to the title...we needed to have not sold Walker invested in that extra quality off the bench. This is or has been the closest we have come in my 28yrs of supporting Spurs to winning the title...we needed to push on....Levy chose to standstill.

It looks that way but I'll give him until the window closes before I agree with you, I thought Walker leaving was more to do with Poch than Levy. But if we fail to reinvest some of the money brought in from sales and try to push on this summer he's failed us all big time,
I still have faith though and I'm sure he will sign players before the window closes.

 

[smallsnc]

Do we pay our players more or less than the players at Leicester City, you know the team that won the PL a couple of seasons ago.

They actually won something, not come a close second or third?

They also did it with a very thin squad an. no, Europe and very few injuries. If we played without Europe with our current team, I think we would be the favorites. However, if we rest anyone for a CL match people are calling for Poch's head. Our problem is that we have a great first 11 or even 12 and no one wants to come and compete with them without getting paid what the top subs are getting at other clubs. Those wages in many cases are higher than our starters.

 

[TH1239]

But that is (conveniently) forgetting what has happened to the squad in the last 12 months - namely that they have pretty much all had a new contract, and that's not just wages as you get bonuses, signing on fees, agent fees with it.

We'll come back to that though in a second... Because also Levy is apparently someone who has players on bonuses and performance related clauses. It remains to be seen what happens in this coming set of figures, but the last time we were in the CL wages went up 50% from 60 to 90 million and it swallowed up all the CL money. I wouldn't be at all shocked if that sort of structure is still in place.

So a wage/bonus increase has quite possibly kicked in summer '16 after qualifying, basically every member of the squad has then had a new contract (with presumably an increase again, otherwise what's the incentive?), which really doesn't get mentioned on here at all in terms of expense, on top of that, and don't forget we've then qualified for the CL once more... That could well be another payout for the squad. We will have to wait for the figures, but I'm almost certain the wage bill will have rose considerably last season and this coming season again.

If you actually read my lengthy post on page 4 of this thread, you'll see I listed a detailed breakdown of our wage bill and revenues this decade. I also listed a series of projections for this past season that included an added 20 million pounds to our wage bill based on an average of 35K per player pay rise for 12 members of the squad. Even with that, our wage to turnover ratio is likely under 45% because of the massive increase in television revenue and Champions League football. Compare that to 2012-2013, when we were operating at 62% wage-to-turnover, and you can see how some of us believe there is room for more expansion in our salary structure.

Furthermore, you must not be aware of this article that Matt Law wrote last year concerning Champions League bonus pay: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...ttle-to-control-tottenham-wage-bill-this-sum/

In it, Law, who is a very credible reporter, notes that the current squad DOES NOT have bonus triggers in their contracts from earning Champions League football. That, frankly, makes a lot of sense given the slew of new contracts and the angst among some squad members over their wages after a second consecutive strong season. Levy clearly learned a lesson from 2010-2011, when the wage bill rose a huge amount relative to our revenue at the time. Our revenue has nearly doubled since 2011-2012, but our wage bill, even if taking into account a substantial 20 million pound increase last season, has risen about 25% in that same timeframe. The squad will notice that in time, and there will eventually be fallout.

Also, because I have seen it bandied about here over the years that agent fees are often gobbling up huge sums of money, it's worth mentioning we actually don't pay all that much in agent fees relative to the much larger clubs (only 7.2 million pounds for 2016-2017): http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/39526917

 

[ItsBoris]

We do need to invest money in both wages and signings if we want to stay at the top. We should give the players bigger bonus payments for winning games/trophies and high finishes in the league, and also sign two players who will come in and significantly improve the squad. We should be making more money now that we will be playing in a larger stadium. If we don't want to slip into obscurity we can't stagnate though.

 

[Krule]

I wouldn't be surprised if Levy's idea of Premiership incentive bonus payments involved giving the players National Lottery lucky dip tickets....and naturally now we are in CPL it would be Euromillions for that competition.

 

[Maxtremist]

Many of our fans portray us as a club that cannot afford to pay related salaries. Im not talking City/PSG/Real/Varca level here..but we can surely outspend what West ham/Leicester or even what Crystal Palace pay their top earners. Instead we pat ourselves on the back for the moral high ground.


Look i feel we are so close to the title...we needed to have not sold Walker invested in that extra quality off the bench. This is or has been the closest we have come in my 28yrs of supporting Spurs to winning the title...we needed to push on....Levy chose to standstill.

We can pay our top earners more but the difference with us and Leicester or West Ham or any of those teams is that they have a star player. Zaha is very clearly Crystal palace's best player for example and all that. In our squad though if we give Rose say 100k cause he's the best LB in the league, wouldn't the rest of our 'first 11' want similar cause they're all that good? That's where the issue lies for us I think

 

[Wheeler Dealer]

If we fail or are financially unable to increase salary cap along with finishing outside champions league position over next 12 months then we will probably lose Alli, Erikson, Alderweireld, Lloris, Dier and maybe Kane as a consequence.

 

[nicdic]

If we fail or are financially unable to increase salary cap along with finishing outside champions league position over next 12 months then we will probably lose Alli, Erikson, Alderweireld, Lloris, Dier and maybe Kane as a consequence.

If players continue to perform well, and provide success on the pitch, they'll continue to get incremental pay rises and bonuses. We're not stingy with wages. And hopefully as we increase our income over the coming years those pay rises will be able to be more too.

 

[Dougal]

If we fail or are financially unable to increase salary cap along with finishing outside champions league position over next 12 months then we will probably lose Alli, Erikson, Alderweireld, Lloris, Dier and maybe Kane as a consequence.

To be fair that's a lot of good players. We shouldn't be failing if they have the right attitude.

 

[philip]

If we get CL this season, with the increased revenue from 18-19, we should be ok to keep our players.

Away form will be key this coming season.

 

[talkshowhost86]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's very unlikely that we'll be able to compete on a sustained basis with the teams at the top of the Premier League with our current financial approach.

We cannot bring in players like the other teams do and if we cannot pay the same wages, ultimately a lot of players will head elsewhere.

The question is then what is our ambition as a club. Do we stay in the situation we are with Levy, where we are effectively the plucky underdog competing against the moneyed-classes of Chelsea, United and City (and doing pretty well at that based on the last couple of seasons) or do we genuinely expect (not hope for) trophies and league titles?

If it's the latter then the model has to change, whether through a shift in what Levy is doing, or through new owners.

I'm relatively happy with either approach to be honest. No Spurs fan is going to say they wouldn't enjoy seeing us win stuff, but at the same time I currently feel very proud that we're doing well whilst not playing the oligarchs' game.

 

[Nebby]

The wage structure is what it is. If players genuinely believed that wage levels were being kept artificially low, they would have all buggered off by now. As it happens, I don't blame any player that wants to leave for better money, even if that meant them joining a weaker team. It's their life and their career. Good luck to them all; one reckless challenge and it could all be over in an instant.

 

[jackson]

reading the guardian data is depressing. where we get killed is in commercial profits (merchandising, sponsorship, etc). We are at 60 million - all the other big clubs are well over 100 million with united at 268 million per year. I dont know how you grow your brand to sell more shirts and get bigger sponsorship deals other than try to do what we are doing - flashy stadium, deals with the NFL, overseas tournaments in the summer, etc.

Winning something i.e the league a couple of times in a short period

 

[joelstinton14]

If Danny was upset with wages, he could count himself lucky that he doesn't play for Athletico Madrid.

Thought i have a look at other clubs wages compared to ours.

Make of this what you will:
Sourced from the uefa football landscape report: Based on 2015 finances.

(Sourced (for below) from the...unfortunatley... from the Daily mail, other rags have used similar information although some place Real above Utd, so its not entirely accurate, but gives a good indication of where things stand. )

 

[mpickard2087]

If you actually read my lengthy post on page 4 of this thread, you'll see I listed a detailed breakdown of our wage bill and revenues this decade. I also listed a series of projections for this past season that included an added 20 million pounds to our wage bill based on an average of 35K per player pay rise for 12 members of the squad. Even with that, our wage to turnover ratio is likely under 45% because of the massive increase in television revenue and Champions League football. Compare that to 2012-2013, when we were operating at 62% wage-to-turnover, and you can see how some of us believe there is room for more expansion in our salary structure.

Furthermore, you must not be aware of this article that Matt Law wrote last year concerning Champions League bonus pay: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...ttle-to-control-tottenham-wage-bill-this-sum/

In it, Law, who is a very credible reporter, notes that the current squad DOES NOT have bonus triggers in their contracts from earning Champions League football. That, frankly, makes a lot of sense given the slew of new contracts and the angst among some squad members over their wages after a second consecutive strong season. Levy clearly learned a lesson from 2010-2011, when the wage bill rose a huge amount relative to our revenue at the time. Our revenue has nearly doubled since 2011-2012, but our wage bill, even if taking into account a substantial 20 million pound increase last season, has risen about 25% in that same timeframe. The squad will notice that in time, and there will eventually be fallout.

Also, because I have seen it bandied about here over the years that agent fees are often gobbling up huge sums of money, it's worth mentioning we actually don't pay all that much in agent fees relative to the much larger clubs (only 7.2 million pounds for 2016-2017): http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/39526917

Good post, but on a few points quickly:

That article doesn't say that CL clauses weren't in place until the current round of contracts this year, so could have come into effect. it also mentions a bonus pot that gets shared out which as a lump sum must be a fairly decent amount when tallied up. and whilst it is a few months old now I also think its a bit OTT, in that it underestimates what we pay our players (I think the 80k 'cap' is bollocks and most certainly we have players on more than that) to further the gap of how far behind we are on paying wages.

I know a bit/get some info on agents and their/signing fees are still quite a murky business. Often they get on-going payments, or are paid in roundabout ways. What gets reported isn't the true outlay. It might not be an earth shattering amount, its still, in my opinion, a fair chunk though.

As I said earlier in the thread, I don't think we can plead poverty, but I just don't think its as simple as some believe/wish it to be. I think revenues are always pushed that bit higher when totting up theoretical values, whilst expenses are kept on the optimistic side.

Also not been mentioned is the stadium. I have said all along that I thin it will have some impact, particularly if the transfers/wages pot needs expanding, and Levy shouldn't have made the statements he has,certainly to take them with a pinch of salt.

 

[talkshowhost86]

I think this table shows where we are most clearly.

We're doing very well in the group behind the top 10 teams in Europe, but the gap to those teams is fairly significant.

If we don't bridge that gap, we're unlikely to be able to regularly compete with those teams.

So the question is do we want to spend that money?

 

[Dougal]

Throw the gauntlet down to the players. Win something and get an improved contract. Why get winners wages while the trophy cabinet is empty?

 

[ljinko888]

I'm half-tempted to cash in on Rose for big money and distribute a portion of the fee towards wages for the other players. The other half wants him to rot in the reserves and miss the World Cup the little scallywag

 

[mpickard2087]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's very unlikely that we'll be able to compete on a sustained basis with the teams at the top of the Premier League with our current financial approach.

We cannot bring in players like the other teams do and if we cannot pay the same wages, ultimately a lot of players will head elsewhere.

The question is then what is our ambition as a club. Do we stay in the situation we are with Levy, where we are effectively the plucky underdog competing against the moneyed-classes of Chelsea, United and City (and doing pretty well at that based on the last couple of seasons) or do we genuinely expect (not hope for) trophies and league titles?

If it's the latter then the model has to change, whether through a shift in what Levy is doing, or through new owners.

I'm relatively happy with either approach to be honest. No Spurs fan is going to say they wouldn't enjoy seeing us win stuff, but at the same time I currently feel very proud that we're doing well whilst not playing the oligarchs' game.

I think this table shows where we are most clearly.

We're doing very well in the group behind the top 10 teams in Europe, but the gap to those teams is fairly significant.

If we don't bridge that gap, we're unlikely to be able to regularly compete with those teams.

So the question is do we want to spend that money?

Time for my favourite crusade.....

Or we start to acknowledge we cant compete in that way, and dare to be radical and do something different? 99.999999% of football, that's owners, managers, players, fans, media and so on, are conditioned to the only way that has ever been known - you throw enough money out there at transfer fees and wages and hope some of it works. The biggest clubs tend to win, as they can afford to waste the most and spend enough that just about gets the results. It's all short term, its all very impatient, it all sticks to the same formula and model.

At some point the mould has to be broken, especially in England. Why not focus and plough more resources on bringing through our own players, that will cost less and will almost certainly have a greater loyalty to the club. Levy, and McDermott, have put in some good work so far, but I'm not sure we are truly committed to seeing the whole process through and I think there are areas where there is room to be a lot more radical and really blaze a trail. The problem is though that it might take circa 15 years to see the results, and again the 99% in football are not willing to be that patient, plus there are very few who believe that you can put systems in place that can bring through such a number of youth players. But if you don't try...

Or we can just stick to the norm, and go on chasing/obsessing over who has the bigger wallet...

 

[joelstinton14]

I think this table shows where we are most clearly.

We're doing very well in the group behind the top 10 teams in Europe, but the gap to those teams is fairly significant.

If we don't bridge that gap, we're unlikely to be able to regularly compete with those teams.

So the question is do we want to spend that money?

I think that next step is the stadium. That is going to be the start of the bridge. It going to be a couple of bumpy years, but we'll get there. Then maybe criticism about spending and wages may be warranted if we are not utilising our full income potential, but judging by historical data - our club is in line with our competitors. I guess it is easy to be sucked into what others are doing but judging by the data it doesn't look like we are 'holding' back. Been frustrating couple of months for sure, but adding genuine quality at a fairly affordable price is always going to be difficult.