Match Threads Liverpool vs Spurs - Match Thread - Day 13

[rez9000]

The late goals argument is specious. Here's a list of all the games (incl. European games) where we have conceded goals in the last 10 minutes.

Southampton: 90th minute penalty;
Newcastle: 97th minute penalty;
Wet Spam: 82nd minute goal, 85th minute own goal, 94th minute goal;
LASK: 84th minute goal, 93rd minute goal;
Crystal Palace: 81st minute;
Liverpool: 90th minute

In the broadest view, that's six games. Out of 23! That's a little over 25% of games. That's not a systemic problem. But we can do even better than that.

We can discount the penalties, so that's two of the nine goals already outside the scope of the late goals conceded argument. Now, some may argue that conceding territory can lead to situations like that. Fair enough, of course, except that in both the respective games we weren't sitting back when the penalties were awarded.

Furthermore, the Newcastle penalty was, in and of itself, utter bullshit and additionally came from a freekick that shouldn't have been given. For those who have shorter memories (like me), Joelinton poleaxed Hojbjerg a few yards from our box, long after the former had passed to a teammate and the moron ref gave them the freekick. If people are still having trouble remembering, the blog below has a vid of the incident:

Joelinton vs Hojbjerg Incident- Controversial "foul" before free kick that lead to Newcastle penalty against Spurs

This Joelinton vs Hojbjerg incident was a controversial one, with this supposed foul essentially leading to a Newcastle free kick which in turn lead to the pena

www.soccer-blogger.com

So, that's two of the nine struck from consideration.

Of the remaining, the LASK game was a poor day at the office. It was a very bad overall performance. But again, that doesn't point to a systemic problem, only a single match where things went wrong.

And that's the same for the West Ham game. It was one performance where a combination of complacency, bad luck, and a once-in-a-lifetime strike unravelled a game in which we had been in complete control. Even if we played badly throughout the whole match, it still doesn't point to a systemic problem.

Palace: a set-piece goal which was very very well taken. That's not to say we couldn't have done better, but it wasn't soft. Hugo was unsighted for most of the flight of the ball and even then he got down to it. He just couldn't hold onto it which again, can happen. Again, it's not a systemic problem.

And Liverpool. The first goal we have conceded from a corner this season and one in which there is a question mark over whether there was a foul in the build-up. Whether there was or wasn't isn't at issue, but it does demonstrate that there isn't a systemic problem.

Of the nine, two were penalties, two were set-pieces (with a question mark over one of them), one was an own-goal and four were from open play. If all nine (or a significant proportion, at least) had been late penalties, if all nine had been freekicks, if all nine had been corners, then you can point to a systemic problem. But there isn't one.

Let's cast this specious argument aside, shall we?

 

[Marty]

The late goals argument is specious. Here's a list of all the games (incl. European games) where we have conceded goals in the last 10 minutes.

Southampton: 90th minute penalty;
Newcastle: 97th minute penalty;
Wet Spam: 82nd minute goal, 85th minute own goal, 94th minute goal;
LASK: 84th minute goal, 93rd minute goal;
Crystal Palace: 81st minute;
Liverpool: 90th minute

In the broadest view, that's six games. Out of 23! That's a little over 25% of games. That's not a systemic problem. But we can do even better than that.

We can discount the penalties, so that's two of the nine goals already outside the scope of the late goals conceded argument. Now, some may argue that conceding territory can lead to situations like that. Fair enough, of course, except that in both the respective games we weren't sitting back when the penalties were awarded.

Furthermore, the Newcastle penalty was, in and of itself, utter bullshit and additionally came from a freekick that shouldn't have been given. For those who have shorter memories (like me), Joelinton poleaxed Hojbjerg a few yards from our box, long after the former had passed to a teammate and the moron ref gave them the freekick. If people are still having trouble remembering, the blog below has a vid of the incident:

Joelinton vs Hojbjerg Incident- Controversial "foul" before free kick that lead to Newcastle penalty against Spurs

This Joelinton vs Hojbjerg incident was a controversial one, with this supposed foul essentially leading to a Newcastle free kick which in turn lead to the pena

www.soccer-blogger.com

So, that's two of the nine struck from consideration.

Of the remaining, the LASK game was a poor day at the office. It was a very bad overall performance. But again, that doesn't point to a systemic problem, only a single match where things went wrong.

And that's the same for the West Ham game. It was one performance where a combination of complacency, bad luck, and a once-in-a-lifetime strike unravelled a game in which we had been in complete control. Even if we played badly throughout the whole match, it still doesn't point to a systemic problem.

Palace: a set-piece goal which was very very well taken. That's not to say we couldn't have done better, but it wasn't soft. Hugo was unsighted for most of the flight of the ball and even then he got down to it. He just couldn't hold onto it which again, can happen. Again, it's not a systemic problem.

And Liverpool. The first goal we have conceded from a corner this season and one in which there is a question mark over whether there was a foul in the build-up. Whether there was or wasn't isn't at issue, but it does demonstrate that there isn't a systemic problem.

Of the nine, two were penalties, two were set-pieces (with a question mark over one of them), one was an own-goal and four were from open play. If all nine (or a significant proportion, at least) had been late penalties, if all nine had been freekicks, if all nine had been corners, then you can point to a systemic problem. But there isn't one.

Let's cast this specious argument aside, shall we?

Agree. I think it's a much bigger worry how/where the late concessions are conceded from, a large percentage of the goals we've conceded are from moves that start with set pieces on our right side and identifying why this happens and stopping it from happening is much more important than the timing of the concessions.

 

[Colonel Dax]

Throughout this day, my good mood has been interrupted when I remember "Bobby" the wanker scoring in the 90th minute. It's a shame we couldn't hold out, a 1-1 result would have been fantastic. On the other hand, Liverpool is by quite some margin the best team in the league, and that's even without their best CB's and best midfielders. It's not a shame to lose against them at their home ground.

I said after the Crystal Palace match that Mourinho has to tinker the setup a bit. I guess Liverpool isn't the match to do that, but regardless we've now had two matches in a row where our defensive approach has resulted in us falling deeper, and deeper, and deeper and eventually we concede a goal from a setpiece. This is an obvious tactical flaw in my mind. For large parts against Liverpool, we hardly strung two passes together. It doesn't matter who you play if you basically through away the possession and let them go at you.

I've felt that we've been much more aggressive in and around our own box earlier this season. But last night it looked like we just couldn't cope with Liverpool's press play down the flanks, which is natural, but also through the middle. Considering the amounts of matches Højbjerg and Sissoko play I wouldn't hold it against them if it's taking a toll. But this really is a key feature if we're going to succeed or not in these tough matches.

Atletico Madrid are notoriously defensive but they are aggressive as hell in certain key areas of the pitch. That's what we have to aim for.
If you lack that aggression and willingness to push back, you're just going to end up being choked against your own penalty box all match.

Agreed. Probably won't happen in January but we would benefit from having another combative CM that can rotate with Sissoko/Hojbjerg. Winks just isn't suited for that role.

 

[rez9000]

Agree. I think it's a much bigger worry how/where the late concessions are conceded from, a large percentage of the goals we've conceded are from moves that start with set pieces on our right side and identifying why this happens and stopping it from happening is much more important than the timing of the concessions.

Agreed. That's the issue that would need addressing. And even then, I think there are more important things to worry about given the overall meanness of our defence. Even after conceding two, I still believe we're the tightest defence in the league (may be wrong on that, as I've not taken the time to check).

For me, the biggest priority is fatigue. Not that we have a problem with it, but that it's going to start looming large in the next few weeks and is then going to be a major consideration for the rest of the season. Obviously, fatigue plays a significant part in every season, but in this particular season, given the virtually non-existent preseason and the bonkers schedule, it's going to play a more significant role than usual.

I can see the wisdom in Jose's tactical framework - a counterattacking setup works very well in mitigating seasonal fatigue. I may have been imagining it, but the Liverpool players looked utterly shattered after the game last night, while our guys still looked relatively fresh (for players who had just done 90 minutes, of course).

 

[Trix]

As a united fan said to me earlier.

"Kane's header chance was ten times easier than Firmiho's.

Jose didn't miss it!"

 

[thecook]

At least Jose didn't come out and say his wife would have scored it

 

[WiganSpur]

Throughout this day, my good mood has been interrupted when I remember "Bobby" the wanker scoring in the 90th minute. It's a shame we couldn't hold out, a 1-1 result would have been fantastic. On the other hand, Liverpool is by quite some margin the best team in the league, and that's even without their best CB's and best midfielders. It's not a shame to lose against them at their home ground.

I said after the Crystal Palace match that Mourinho has to tinker the setup a bit. I guess Liverpool isn't the match to do that, but regardless we've now had two matches in a row where our defensive approach has resulted in us falling deeper, and deeper, and deeper and eventually we concede a goal from a setpiece. This is an obvious tactical flaw in my mind. For large parts against Liverpool, we hardly strung two passes together. It doesn't matter who you play if you basically through away the possession and let them go at you.

I've felt that we've been much more aggressive in and around our own box earlier this season. But last night it looked like we just couldn't cope with Liverpool's press play down the flanks, which is natural, but also through the middle. Considering the amounts of matches Højbjerg and Sissoko play I wouldn't hold it against them if it's taking a toll. But this really is a key feature if we're going to succeed or not in these tough matches.

Atletico Madrid are notoriously defensive but they are aggressive as hell in certain key areas of the pitch. That's what we have to aim for.
If you lack that aggression and willingness to push back, you're just going to end up being choked against your own penalty box all match.

It's funny you mention Atletico because in the CL last season although they played superbly in the home leg against Liverpool they were awful at Anfield with a very similar game plan to Mourinho's, only executed very poorly. Yet they got away with it because of Oblak and banter keeper Adrian. Funny old game.

 

[lis spur]

Got into the car this morning, first thing is to turn over Talksport to avoid the wankfest. AHH a bit Smooth FM I thought. 1st fucking thing I hear is "champions beat rivals" off you go ****

Same thing last night turned off Amazon to be subjected to Jimmy Osmond singing long haired lover from Liverpool on BBC4 ,that went off too!!!

 

[TonyK]

The gloating by Liverpool fans and players is pretty unbearable atm. I would love for us to smash them in 7 games time and not even celebrate and just move on to the next game.

Nah mate, if we beat them at home, I want us to give it to them large in high definition and full on stereo!! Fuck them smug bin dipper pricks!

 

[cjbyid]

The gloating by Liverpool fans and players is pretty unbearable atm. I would love for us to smash them in 7 games time and not even celebrate and just move on to the next game.

Worst fan base I've come across. Chels/Arsenal/Spam are waay more tolerable. I'm in Ireland and they're everywhere here.

 

[allpaths]

Looking back at the performance, it actually gives me a massive amount of optimism for the reverse fixture at our place. Which isn't that far off.

No way Liverpool can repeat their performance, especially in the first half, and I fully believe Kane wont miss some of the opportunities both to set us off to attack and to score himself.

In the mean time we just need to shake the last two results off and go on a nice long winning run.

 

[Joely]

In recent times, what irritates me the most is it always seems to be about missed chances or them scoring at the death to nick it and us losing by the odd goal. Last season, the game at home, remember GLC really having a great chance to level it but somehow flashed it wide. In the away fixture, remember Son hitting the bar. Also remember Toby scoring an OG at the death to give them the game. So frustrating and hopefully we can beat them at our place.

 

[Japhet]

As a united fan said to me earlier.

"Kane's header chance was ten times easier than Firmiho's.

Jose didn't miss it!"

Firmino's chance came at a perfect height for him and he was running in on it. He had a clear sight of it all the way too. Kane's came at him quickly through a crowd and was too low for him to get a proper contact, and hence he headed it straight into the ground. I think a huge percentage of strikers would prefer Firmino's chance to Kanes.

 

[shelfboy68]

Looking back at the performance, it actually gives me a massive amount of optimism for the reverse fixture at our place. Which isn't that far off.

No way Liverpool can repeat their performance, especially in the first half, and I fully believe Kane wont miss some of the opportunities both to set us off to attack and to score himself.

In the mean time we just need to shake the last two results off and go on a nice long winning run.

I hope we bounce back with a win against Leicester, but have this feeling more dropped points and another draw awaits us.

 

[rez9000]

The late goals argument is specious. Here's a list of all the games (incl. European games) where we have conceded goals in the last 10 minutes.

Southampton: 90th minute penalty;
Newcastle: 97th minute penalty;
Wet Spam: 82nd minute goal, 85th minute own goal, 94th minute goal;
LASK: 84th minute goal, 93rd minute goal;
Crystal Palace: 81st minute;
Liverpool: 90th minute

In the broadest view, that's six games. Out of 23! That's a little over 25% of games. That's not a systemic problem. But we can do even better than that.

We can discount the penalties, so that's two of the nine goals already outside the scope of the late goals conceded argument. Now, some may argue that conceding territory can lead to situations like that. Fair enough, of course, except that in both the respective games we weren't sitting back when the penalties were awarded.

Furthermore, the Newcastle penalty was, in and of itself, utter bullshit and additionally came from a freekick that shouldn't have been given. For those who have shorter memories (like me), Joelinton poleaxed Hojbjerg a few yards from our box, long after the former had passed to a teammate and the moron ref gave them the freekick. If people are still having trouble remembering, the blog below has a vid of the incident:

Joelinton vs Hojbjerg Incident- Controversial "foul" before free kick that lead to Newcastle penalty against Spurs

This Joelinton vs Hojbjerg incident was a controversial one, with this supposed foul essentially leading to a Newcastle free kick which in turn lead to the pena

www.soccer-blogger.com

So, that's two of the nine struck from consideration.

Of the remaining, the LASK game was a poor day at the office. It was a very bad overall performance. But again, that doesn't point to a systemic problem, only a single match where things went wrong.

And that's the same for the West Ham game. It was one performance where a combination of complacency, bad luck, and a once-in-a-lifetime strike unravelled a game in which we had been in complete control. Even if we played badly throughout the whole match, it still doesn't point to a systemic problem.

Palace: a set-piece goal which was very very well taken. That's not to say we couldn't have done better, but it wasn't soft. Hugo was unsighted for most of the flight of the ball and even then he got down to it. He just couldn't hold onto it which again, can happen. Again, it's not a systemic problem.

And Liverpool. The first goal we have conceded from a corner this season and one in which there is a question mark over whether there was a foul in the build-up. Whether there was or wasn't isn't at issue, but it does demonstrate that there isn't a systemic problem.

Of the nine, two were penalties, two were set-pieces (with a question mark over one of them), one was an own-goal and four were from open play. If all nine (or a significant proportion, at least) had been late penalties, if all nine had been freekicks, if all nine had been corners, then you can point to a systemic problem. But there isn't one.

Let's cast this specious argument aside, shall we?

Loving the WTF ratings! Confirms my view because no-one seems able to actually present a cogent counter-argument....

Just putting it out there if anyone wants to pick up that particular gauntlet....

 

[John48]

As a united fan said to me earlier.

"Kane's header chance was ten times easier than Firmiho's.

Jose didn't miss it!"

Don't agree, Firmiho has a clear sight & jump at the ball. The ball to Kane came through players & rather surprised him & effectively hitting him rather than him heading as Firmiho did.

 

[Escher]

Loving the WTF ratings! Confirms my view because no-one seems able to actually present a cogent counter-argument....

Just putting it out there if anyone wants to pick up that particular gauntlet....

We've conceded around 90 min mark in 4 games already this season, all costing us a good result. Who the fuck cares if it was from a penalty or not?

(not even counting Crystal Palace game)

 

[rez9000]

We've conceded around 90 min mark in 4 games already this season, all costing us a good result. Who the fuck cares if it was from a penalty or not?

(not even counting Crystal Palace game)

Out of 23 games. That equates to less than 18% of our games this season. Plus which the fact of it being a penalty is actually a pretty significant factor.

Systemic problem?

EDIT: Those who don't give a 'fuck' if they were penalties or not are often the ones who have an agenda.

 

[idontgetit]

Looking at the post-match thread on Reddit the Liverpool (and neutral) fans are actually surprisingly complimentary.

 

[Blueluigi6]

Looking at the post-match thread on Reddit the Liverpool (and neutral) fans are actually surprisingly complimentary.

Because a large portion of that subreddit are Liverpool fans and they won the match