Martin Jol - Speaks Out !

[Kendall]

fair point Kendall - but who's the second most revered manager in Spurs history - probably Burkinshaw, he's certainly one of the most revered, - but his was a reputation based mainly on the cups he won, and the finals and semi finals he also reached

if we look at Redknapp now - for years whenever people have praised him I've always thought 'fine, but what's he won?' - howevver if he wins the Cup to me his reputation is transformed

and please also let's remember the lge position we were in when Jol left - it sure weren't top six-

ok blame the board if you like - but whoever was at fault it sure ain't JR for not getting top 6 this season

More cups and I might change my mind. But at the moment I stand by the notion that Juande winning 1 cup and Jol not, does not automatically mean he's done a better job, or indeed, has proven himself a massive step up.

I have no doubt that this is the beginning of many good things to come, but Juande still has much to prove. If he can get us to any kind of consistency that Jol did, then I will change my mind also.

 

[Mullers]

I really love that guy, I wished he could have won a trophy with us and created a dynasty like he wanted to do. I think he is an excellent manager and wish him every success in the future.

 

[lukespurs7]

All seems so fishy. Mabye Jol didn't have the tactical knowhow as yes under him we did throw away a fair few leads against the bigger teams whereas under Junade he's changed it so we have come from behind to draw or beat the top4 i.e Chelsea etc.

However Jol in his interview did mention he didn't get the few players he wanted i don't think it's down to wages or the fact they didn't want to come(impossible to say i know) but it seems likely that Commoli just got the players he felt were right. There have been many signs he was unhappy with the unesseccary signing of Bent and I feel mabye just mabye if he was left to manage and do transfers himself then he may still be here.

There is no disputing he did a fantastic job, last few seasons got us playing some lovely attacking football, always knew the defence was a weak point but proved he can get a team defending well with the season we nearly came 4th when we had stalteri and lee etc and let in very few.

Overall i really liked Jol, he was clearly very passionate about the club and we had a special relationship with him as fans. I was very very upset to see the way the club handled his departure and i'm sure if he wasn't banned from saying things to the media from a clause in his severance package there'd be a few strong words to be said.

He was a good manager and deserved better. Argueable Ramos and Poyet are better and will do better but if Jol had Hutton and Woodgate who knows how well he could have done for us, mabye he would have won us a cup.

I don't think as a coach he's that far behind Ramos, Jol did very well for us, laid some lovely foundations and shared some great moments at our club.

I wish him ever success-top bloke, top character and is still missed regardless of weather Poyet and Ramos are better or not.

I love Martin Jollll, Martin Jol loves me,I love Martin Jolll, Martin Jol loves us!!!

 

[Rabbi_Krustofski]

'If it won't happen, they will miss me'
Bit arrogant for my liking ..dont forget his defence were SHIT!

 

[eddiebailey]

dont forget his defence were SHIT!

Short memory. The season we almost made fourth we had our best season defensively in the Premiership, with Robinson keeping goal behind Stalteri, Dawson, King and Lee, and Carrick screening. It was the failure of the club to adequately replace Carrick and King that wrecked our defence, and probably contributed to Robbo's decline. Ultimately a coach can only work with the players at his disposal.

 

[Coyboy]

All seems so fishy. Mabye Jol didn't have the tactical knowhow as yes under him we did throw away a fair few leads against the bigger teams whereas under Junade he's changed it so we have come from behind to draw or beat the top4 i.e Chelsea etc.

However Jol in his interview did mention he didn't get the few players he wanted i don't think it's down to wages or the fact they didn't want to come(impossible to say i know) but it seems likely that Commoli just got the players he felt were right. There have been many signs he was unhappy with the unesseccary signing of Bent and I feel mabye just mabye if he was left to manage and do transfers himself then he may still be here.

There is no disputing he did a fantastic job, last few seasons got us playing some lovely attacking football, always knew the defence was a weak point but proved he can get a team defending well with the season we nearly came 4th when we had stalteri and lee etc and let in very few.

Overall i really liked Jol, he was clearly very passionate about the club and we had a special relationship with him as fans. I was very very upset to see the way the club handled his departure and i'm sure if he wasn't banned from saying things to the media from a clause in his severance package there'd be a few strong words to be said.

He was a good manager and deserved better. Argueable Ramos and Poyet are better and will do better but if Jol had Hutton and Woodgate who knows how well he could have done for us, mabye he would have won us a cup.

I don't think as a coach he's that far behind Ramos, Jol did very well for us, laid some lovely foundations and shared some great moments at our club.

I wish him ever success-top bloke, top character and is still missed regardless of weather Poyet and Ramos are better or not.

I love Martin Jollll, Martin Jol loves me,I love Martin Jolll, Martin Jol loves us!!!

There's a nail on a head somewhere.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

All seems so fishy. Mabye Jol didn't have the tactical knowhow as yes under him we did throw away a fair few leads against the bigger teams whereas under Junade he's changed it so we have come from behind to draw or beat the top4 i.e Chelsea etc.

However Jol in his interview did mention he didn't get the few players he wanted i don't think it's down to wages or the fact they didn't want to come(impossible to say i know) but it seems likely that Commoli just got the players he felt were right. There have been many signs he was unhappy with the unesseccary signing of Bent and I feel mabye just mabye if he was left to manage and do transfers himself then he may still be here.

There is no disputing he did a fantastic job, last few seasons got us playing some lovely attacking football, always knew the defence was a weak point but proved he can get a team defending well with the season we nearly came 4th when we had stalteri and lee etc and let in very few.

Overall i really liked Jol, he was clearly very passionate about the club and we had a special relationship with him as fans. I was very very upset to see the way the club handled his departure and i'm sure if he wasn't banned from saying things to the media from a clause in his severance package there'd be a few strong words to be said.

He was a good manager and deserved better. Argueable Ramos and Poyet are better and will do better but if Jol had Hutton and Woodgate who knows how well he could have done for us, mabye he would have won us a cup.

I don't think as a coach he's that far behind Ramos, Jol did very well for us, laid some lovely foundations and shared some great moments at our club.

I wish him ever success-top bloke, top character and is still missed regardless of weather Poyet and Ramos are better or not.

I love Martin Jollll, Martin Jol loves me,I love Martin Jolll, Martin Jol loves us!!!

Yeah here's a nail on a head somewhere but you just missed it and whacked your thumb.

No manager will get all the players they want. It's a piss poor cliche but it makes it sound as if the board didn't back him. Clever use of sound bite (when taken into the context that it will be mostly listened to by divs making puppy dog eyes at cuddly Mart). If he hadn't blown our best chance at CL football ever we would have stood a better chance of signing top quality players. Do you think that Ramos will get every player he wants ?

What he proved was that he was clueless spotting good defenders from bad ones, and coaching the bad ones to be better.

What he proved was that he wasn't very good tactically, or that his tactics book had two lines.


He was a good coach of a pretty good team. I don't think there's been a single game that I've wished he wa stil here though. Have you ?

And how exactly does everyone think Levy should have done it ? Considering Ramos's club were hell bent on keeping him and he was probably one of the hottest managerial candidates in european football. The fact that Levy made Jol a multi millionaire and gave him his big chance in football seems to be completely forgotten. Levy's biggest mistake seems to be that he's not a fat, cuddly populist. Because in terms of what he's done for this club he pisses Jol. So why does Jol get the love and Levy the criticism.

 

[Jody]

'cos jol gives the love and levy is a businessman.

 

[Coyboy]

Yeah here's a nail on a head somewhere but you just missed it and whacked your thumb.

No manager will get all the players they want. It's a piss poor cliche but it makes it sound as if the board didn't back him. Clever use of sound bite (when taken into the context that it will be mostly listened to by divs making puppy dog eyes at cuddly Mart). If he hadn't blown our best chance at CL football ever we would have stood a better chance of signing top quality players. Do you think that Ramos will get every player he wants ?

What he proved was that he was clueless spotting good defenders from bad ones, and coaching the bad ones to be better.

What he proved was that he wasn't very good tactically, or that his tactics book had two lines.


He was a good coach of a pretty good team. I don't think there's been a single game that I've wished he wa stil here though. Have you ?

And how exactly does everyone think Levy should have done it ? Considering Ramos's club were hell bent on keeping him and he was probably one of the hottest managerial candidates in european football. The fact that Levy made Jol a multi millionaire and gave him his big chance in football seems to be completely forgotten. Levy's biggest mistake seems to be that he's not a fat, cuddly populist. Because in terms of what he's done for this club he pisses Jol. So why does Jol get the love and Levy the criticism.

You can always spot a bad arguement when the poster has to resort to petty insults like 'divs' or has to make fun of someone's weight. I thought we all left that in the playground.

It's not rocket science. Jol didn't ask for player A and get player B. He asked for a player or players in a certain position and with certain attributes and they were not provided. The team therefore, set back by injuries and high expectation, struggled and slipped further down the slope through bad luck and late goals.

Jol blew our best chance of getting Champions League football. It's an interesting arguement. It's akin to saying England Rugby Team 'blew' their chance to retain the world cup. They did extremely well to get there in the first place. Did you start the 05/06 season expecting fourth place? When Jol took over, did you demand that he get us into the Champions League within eighteen months? If, and I can guees, not, the don't you think getting us within a whisker is a mighty achievement?

Jol 'proved' that he was clueless at spotting good defenders and making bad ones better. That arguement doesn't quite stand up to the facts. Paul Stalteri and Lee Young Pyo are not the best defenders in the world. But they were part of our strongest back four in years. Now if Jol, who was at the helm when they were signed, is so bad at spotting good defenders and at making bad ones better, then he did something wrong and contrary to his nature in actually making them play well over the course of that season and the one after in Lee's case.

Jol proved that he wasn't very good tactically. How did he prove that? By making us harder to beat than most of his recent predecessors? By defeating Mourinho's (who knows a thing or two about tactics) Chelsea? By getting us to fifth two seasons running? Jol is tactically weak. It's become one those myths, rather lies, that gets regurgitated so often that people start to believe it- like the Royal Family killed Diana, the Jews caused 9/11 and God created the world.

Levy made Jol a multi-millionaire and gave him his biggest chance of football. That's one way of looking at it. Another, truer, way of putting it was that Levy's initial choice, Santini, failed and so he just appointed his assistant because he had worked so hard for the best part of nine months to find a manager that he realised his eye for a good coach wasn't the best so he gave the job to the assistant and got lucky. And when the team went through it's first serious bad patch he sacked him and was contractually obliged, not to say morally, to pay Jol his worth.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You can always spot a bad arguement when the poster has to resort to petty insults like 'divs' or has to make fun of someone's weight. I thought we all left that in the playground.

It's not rocket science. Jol didn't ask for player A and get player B. He asked for a player or players in a certain position and with certain attributes and they were not provided. The team therefore, set back by injuries and high expectation, struggled and slipped further down the slope through bad luck and late goals.

You have no idea whatsoever what Jol asked for. Is it not rocket science for you to grasp that the reason we didn't get some players is that they wouldn't come or that Jol never actually asked for them believing that people like Robinson and Dawson were actually "good".

Jol blew our best chance of getting Champions League football. It's an interesting arguement. It's akin to saying England Rugby Team 'blew' their chance to retain the world cup. They did extremely well to get there in the first place. Did you start the 05/06 season expecting fourth place? When Jol took over, did you demand that he get us into the Champions League within eighteen months? If, and I can guees, not, the don't you think getting us within a whisker is a mighty achievement?

We weren't the fourth best team in 2004 you're right. But Arsenal play better football than Chelsea and ManU yet won't finish above them this year. 4th place was ours to loose. Poor performances in the last 2/3games (Blackburn/Boro if I remember rightly) and picking sick players ahead of fit ones against West ham was directly down to decisions by Jol. Not to mention replacing Kanoute with Mido for the whole of that season.

Jol 'proved' that he was clueless at spotting good defenders and making bad ones better. That arguement doesn't quite stand up to the facts. Paul Stalteri and Lee Young Pyo are not the best defenders in the world. But they were part of our strongest back four in years. Now if Jol, who was at the helm when they were signed, is so bad at spotting good defenders and at making bad ones better, then he did something wrong and contrary to his nature in actually making them play well over the course of that season and the one after in Lee's case.

Stalteri & particularly Lee were better defenders than the players Jol continually picked ahead of them the following year (Chimbonda & Ekotto) brilliantly dropping lee for the semi-finals with Arsenal (our most experienced defender, a player who had played in CL semis and won titles with PSV). Masterstroke.

And the biggest reason we were defensively sound was that we actually played a far more defensive game with davids, Carrick, Tainio and Jenas in the midfield (a player Jol also decided was surplus the following season despite us being defensively poor).


Jol proved that he wasn't very good tactically. How did he prove that? By making us harder to beat than most of his recent predecessors? By defeating Mourinho's (who knows a thing or two about tactics) Chelsea? By getting us to fifth two seasons running? Jol is tactically weak. It's become one those myths, rather lies, that gets regurgitated so often that people start to believe it- like the Royal Family killed Diana, the Jews caused 9/11 and God created the world.

Jol didn't exactly make us harder to beat did he. In fact we were piss easy to beat at the start of this season.

Levy made Jol a multi-millionaire and gave him his biggest chance of football. That's one way of looking at it. Another, truer, way of putting it was that Levy's initial choice, Santini, failed and so he just appointed his assistant because he had worked so hard for the best part of nine months to find a manager that he realised his eye for a good coach wasn't the best so he gave the job to the assistant and got lucky. And when the team went through it's first serious bad patch he sacked him and was contractually obliged, not to say morally, to pay Jol his worth.
The truest way of putting it would be that Levy realised that if you want to progress quickly from an inferior position you will need a manager in place who has the reputation and achievement to entice players of a certain quality who would otherwise not consider a club not even playing UEFA football. He hired the best DOF in football (just about) and precured the services of a manager who had won the french league with an unfashionable club and managed world champions. He also listen to his DOF when he told him of a promising young manager in the dutch league and brought him in, probably against the wishes of Santini. I bet you didn't grumble at the appointment of Santini did you ?

And an even truer way of putting would be that Levy realised that as cuddly as big Mart was his tactics, management and coaching were limited and that we were not going to get a chance like Ramos very often. He did what he did for the club. Not for some personal gratification.
It paid an immediate dividend. Without Ramos we wouldn't have European football next season. We would have lost a vital revenue stream. The chance to sign a better quality of player and any progress would have been almost impossible.

When you were standing at wembley, having just watched us outplay Chelsea for one of the most satisfying victories i the last 40 years were you thinking "what a **** that levy is". I'm guessing no because your a whinging hypocrite.

.

 

[Coyboy]

.

I don’t know for sure but I do have an idea. If you look at our time a year ago, you could see we needed a ‘screening’ midfielder, a left winger and possibly a centre back for insurance against King; needless to say all had to be of high quality and experienced. Jol didn’t get that. You say I have no idea and then you speculate and dress as fact the notion that Jol didn’t ask for players because he believed Robinson and Dawson were good. I wasn’t talking about those areas and Dawson had proved himself to be a good player.



Lose is the word you are looking for not loose. We beat Blackburn, beat Boro at home in August and drew away in December so I am not sure what games you are talking about. Come back when you have done some research and not used a hazy memory. Blaming Jol for picking ‘sick’ players is ridiculous. They were pretty much all sick, would it have been better to play seventeen year olds?


Yes but you don’t have a strong defence without a strong back five, that goes without saying. The midfield can protect them as much as possible but if the back four are ‘bad’ as you imply, you will ship a lot of goals and lose more games than you will win. I am not sure what player you are talking about, again you have communicated yourself poorly. If it is Daivds, they were obvious and clear reasons why he was released.


If you take the whole of his reign, we were harder to beat. That is a statistical fact and he had the best winning percentage of any manager since Burkinshaw. At the beginning of the season, there were mitigating circumstances and for all but the Sunderland and Everton games, Jol was to all intents and purposes a ‘dead man’.


“If you want progress quickly”- well first progress to the extent of establishing yourself as a top four regular doesn’t happen quickly. But would you not agree that taking a team from 14th and sinking to European football twice in a row is not quick progress? I was not grumbling when Santini was appointed but I was hardly singing from the roof tops.

And there you adhere to the classic anti-pro Jol argument- you must not like Ramos then. Ramos has nothing to do with it. I am talking about what Jol achieved pre Ramos. I think Ramos is an excellent coach but by saying that, it doesn’t mean that I cannot say Jol too was an excellent coach and that he was treated poorly and unfairly. Why do people seem to think it’s one thing or another, you cannot think highly of Jol and Ramos- they are not Jesus Christ and Lucifer.

Insulting me at the end of your argument agains betrays the infantile and defunct nature of it. I was delirious at Wembley but does that mean I have to insult or lessen the achievements of Jol? Does that mean that all Jol did before that was meaningless? Consider this, do you think the players and the manager who got us to Wembley would have been here had it not been for where Jol had taken the club?

 

[ShadyRay]

Jol was a decent bloke, a good number 2, and might go on to be a great manager in years to come. But he wasn't good enough for us.

As a person I liked him, and have had the pleasure of meeting him socially, along with his wife and daughter (we have some mutual friends). But I wouldn't keep him in a position he's not good enough for just because he's a nice guy.

And on a final note, the board did little wrong when getting rid (in my opinion). I don't think he was treated particularly badly at all.

 

[ShadyRay]

I am becoming more and more impressed with last year's 5th place finish. It's basically the same team as this year, without the steadying influence of Woody and he dragged that squad to 5th. There is no way if flipping hell, that squad was worthy of 5th. It had the same Championship midfield we have now, Robbo was just as shakey, Dawson was our senior defender and yet he managed a feat that is now becoming increasing mind-boggling. Berba and Keano's form at the end of the season, didn't hurt though

No doubt, this season has been incredibly disappointing from a league perspective. But it's not fair to say that we've got essentially the same team now as we did then, because that ignores the fact that Everton, Pompey, Villa and Man City are all much much much stronger than they were last season.

 

[nidge]

And on a final note, the board did little wrong when getting rid (in my opinion). I don't think he was treated particularly badly at all.

It's all about opinion I guess. I think that if the ITK rumours were to be believe that the board had lost faith in Jol over the summer than that was the time to do it and not drag the whole episode out over 3 months, because that effectively left us in a management black hole. The board should have taken the brave decision and sacked Jol when they first had doubts rather than letting Jol's prolonged sacking last the length of time that it did.

Also before anyone suggests I don't like Ramos they can fuck off because I think he is a very good coach but, will need better players in the summer just, like Jol needed last summer.

 

[nidge]

No doubt, this season has been incredibly disappointing from a league perspective. But it's not fair to say that we've got essentially the same team now as we did then, because that ignores the fact that Everton, Pompey, Villa and Man City are all much much much stronger than they were last season.

That's also true but, it also shows where the whole management team failed last summer. (That includes Jol/Levy/Comolli) We stood still admiring our second successive 5th place finish and didn't make the strides forward we could of and as such over clubs caught up. I blame all of them for that. :-|

 

[ShadyRay]

It's all about opinion I guess. I think that if the ITK rumours were to be believe that the board had lost faith in Jol over the summer than that was the time to do it and not drag the whole episode out over 3 months, because that effectively left us in a management black hole. The board should have taken the brave decision and sacked Jol when they first had doubts rather than letting Jol's prolonged sacking last the length of time that it did.

Indeed, it's all about opinions.

The way I see it, the board had (well founded) doubts about Jol over the Summer, which is why they were making enquiries about who was available. At the time Jol had just finished 5th with some good cup runs, Ramos wouldn't leave Sevilla, so they decided to stick with Jol and hope their fears were unfounded (which the vast majority of the fans were pretty happy about).

Then the season starts, their fears are being realised with some absolutely appalling performances, and Ramos becomes available. So the board make the huge decision (knowing it will make them very unpopular with the fans, but knowing it's in the best interests of the club long term) to get rid of Jol and upgrade to Ramos.

Excellent decision making by the board. I feel sorry for Jol (as I do for anyone who loses their job), but excellent from the board.

 

[nidge]

Indeed, it's all about opinions.

The way I see it, the board had (well founded) doubts about Jol over the Summer, which is why they were making enquiries about who was available. At the time Jol had just finished 5th with some good cup runs, Ramos wouldn't leave Sevilla, so they decided to stick with Jol and hope their fears were unfounded (which the vast majority of the fans were pretty happy about).

Then the season starts, their fears are being realised with some absolutely appalling performances, and Ramos becomes available. So the board make the huge decision (knowing it will make them very unpopular with the fans, but knowing it's in the best interests of the club long term) to get rid of Jol and upgrade to Ramos.

Excellent decision making by the board. I feel sorry for Jol (as I do for anyone who loses their job), but excellent from the board.

But thats not quite how it happened Shady. We had two bad performances at the start of the season and then the club were caught making dizzying offers to Ramos and then proceeded to back Jol until the Getafe match when the fact he was sacked was leaked to the media. You can't get caught tapping up Ramos and then go on the back Jol as it just made the board look foolish.

The board mad the right decision in the end but, handled very, very badly and for my money the whole PR department should have been sacked because of it.

 

[eddiebailey]

The way I see it, the board had (well founded) doubts about Jol over the Summer, which is why they were making enquiries about who was available. At the time Jol had just finished 5th with some good cup runs, Ramos wouldn't leave Sevilla, so they decided to stick with Jol and hope their fears were unfounded (which the vast majority of the fans were pretty happy about).

In retrospect, Jol's track record prior to this season looks even more impressive, so perhaps the fans knew better than the Board.

Then the season starts, their fears are being realised with some absolutely appalling performances, and Ramos becomes available.

Two performances, albeit terrible ones, should not be sufficient to damn a manager (and I still contend that part of the reason we began the season half asleep was that the club organised a preseason that had more to do with promoting the brand than preparing for the Premiership.) It was less a case of their fears being realised than of giving them the pretext that some at least of the Board had been looking for.

And Ramos did not exactly become available.

 

[Gilzeanking]

I'm with Shady on this . Levy has to look after the club and the managerial change was him doing his job . Whichever way you cut the cards Ramos's credentials were fabulous .

I quite like the anti Levy argument that he should have shaken up the club in the last close season and not let other clubs overtake us . Snag with this is that our incredible run in at the end of last season , snatching 5th at the death , made that seem unnecessary . In a way 6th would have been better , 5th flattered and made Jol impregnable .

There are many in this forum who say Levy should've sacked Jol in the close season...thats simply unrealistic .... imagine the fury of the '90%' of Spurs fans who love Jol , they'd have gone absolutely crazy with rage , I mean look at them now , still furious , even after Jol's poor start to the season .

Final point which Shady made is also important when assessing JR against Mart....There has been a surge of quality and expenditure by many clubs and we have serious opposition to our '5th best in Prem' imaginary status now .

 

[nidge]

Final point which Shady made is also important when assessing JR against Mart....There has been a surge of quality and expenditure by many clubs and we have serious opposition to our '5th best in Prem' imaginary status now .

But, we allowed ourselves to be caught with the purchases we made. If we had strengthed in the area that needed it with players that were ready to do the job in the premier league I don't think we would have been in such a bad position. The whole purchasing committee failed last summer, yet Jol was the only one to pay the ultimate price because of it.