Massive Redknapp and Rafa rumour!

[Bus-Conductor]

So we have gone from tactial ineptitude to fallibility or lack of tactical perfection? Changing one's argument to disguise the fact that you are clearly surprised Modric came out with that and thought I was talking out my arse.

VDV's comments were more descriptive, to highlight that he is given more freedom than under previous managers perhaps. As I said at the time, he is more of a libero player than we have or have had for a while. That doesn't mean we don't prepare in other areas. Modric's comments were pretty black and white and plainly contradict what you and others think you know.

You don't win as many games and do as well as we have under Redknapp with a 'definite lack of preparation'.

I'm not surprised Modric came out with that. I've heard Redknapp say it himself, and have posted his quotes many times on here. Eeven last week after the Hearts/ManU games I posted this:

You can never be sure with Redknapp because as he said himself before this game, sometimes changes are forced on him and these changes bring about, by fortuitous serendipity, a better style of play (MIlan away, Hearts away eg), but if the first couple of games are anything to go by it appears we are passing and pressing a little better than we finished last year. But I definitely reserve judgement on that until we see a couple more games and whether when everyone is fit and available we continue to zip the ball around or revert back to plodders like Huddlestone slowing everything down.

After the Milan game last year I said it was tactically his best game as a Spurs manager, when he played Modric in the hole against ManU in the CC final I said it was superb tactically.

I know he does them, and give him credit when he gets it right, but you don't win what 3 games in 14 ?, when you are getting everything right either.

We, even you, can see that for the majority of last season we did not play a high tempo, high up the pitch pressing game, quite the opposite, we were open and often didn't win back the ball until it reached our box. Even Redknapp said this on numerous occasions.

This clearly contradicts the philosophy Modric espoused.

And several of us an numerous occasions, including the author of the article posted in the other thread, have also noticed and highlighted definite and distinct lacks in organisation, work rate and discipline. Not always, but often. What we do have is a few outstanding individual players, VDV, Bale, Modric, Palacios, Sandro, who often masked deficiencies in tactics and coaching.

 

[cusop]

Hi guys not sure if anyone can confirm this but I have been given some info, during half time against city Redknapp comes in looking bewildered and to the players bemusement he just comes out with "we need to get it up to crouchy" Van der vaart then snapped at one of the coaching staff saying "he dont know what he's doing" then a bit of a ruckus broke out and now Rafa and Harry are no longer on talking terms. A few of the first team players are very worried about Harry tactically and they don't think he'll ever be a match for the bigger sides. Just passing on in good faith

PSML!!! Well thats one tactic we shant use again!!:stupid:

 

[tRiKS]

fits my opinion so I chose to believe its accurate.

 

[Coyboy]

I'm not surprised Modric came out with that. I've heard Redknapp say it himself, and have posted his quotes many times on here. Eeven last week after the Hearts/ManU games I posted this:

You can never be sure with Redknapp because as he said himself before this game, sometimes changes are forced on him and these changes bring about, by fortuitous serendipity, a better style of play (MIlan away, Hearts away eg), but if the first couple of games are anything to go by it appears we are passing and pressing a little better than we finished last year. But I definitely reserve judgement on that until we see a couple more games and whether when everyone is fit and available we continue to zip the ball around or revert back to plodders like Huddlestone slowing everything down.

After the Milan game last year I said it was tactically his best game as a Spurs manager, when he played Modric in the hole against ManU in the CC final I said it was superb tactically.

I know he does them, and give him credit when he gets it right, but you don't win what 3 games in 14 ?, when you are getting everything right either.

We, even you, can see that for the majority of last season we did not play a high tempo, high up the pitch pressing game, quite the opposite, we were open and often didn't win back the ball until it reached our box. Even Redknapp said this on numerous occasions.

This clearly contradicts the philosophy Modric espoused.

And several of us an numerous occasions, including the author of the article posted in the other thread, have also noticed and highlighted definite and distinct lacks in organisation, work rate and discipline. Not always, but often. What we do have is a few outstanding individual players, VDV, Bale, Modric, Palacios, Sandro, who often masked deficiencies in tactics and coaching.

Ok, only you can honestly know that but it was pretty clear from your tone that you thought I had just invented it. Fine.

No one is saying Redknapp isn't at fault sometimes and that he hasn't been more poignantly over the last six months in making mistakes. But you cannot say that the above players by their very presence win us games in spite of Redknapp. It is nonsensical when you consider all of them.

None, with the possible exception of VDV and Palacios, just appeared and won us games. All had to be coached and used effectively. Modric-we have covered- and credits Redknapp with his improvement. Not exclusively, not perhaps as the main facilitator of his rise but a significant factor. Ditto Bale.

And Sandro was hardly an instant success. He was never shit for us even when people said as much here, but he clearly improved over the course of the winter. If you want to think, again, that that had nothing to do with coaching and management then fine. But it flies in the face of common sense.

The central point isn't how well we employ tactics. It is Redknapp's attention to it. VDV's comments certainly implied superficially a lax attitude but as per my original point, they are neatly contextualised not only by VDV's role and personality but by Modric's comments. I think we struggled to consistently employ such pressing and ball retention because injuries, CL football, a slight inbalance in the squad and an insipid strikeforce inhibited such consistency. That, and for sure, Redknapp's mistakes.

But to infer from VDV's comments in a seemingly off the cuff remark or two, and a speculative rumour that Redknapp is to tactics what Man City is to frugality is moronic. He doesn't get it right all the time, he often gets it wrong but you don't achieve what he has and we have over the last two to three years without some tactical skill and dexterity.

 

[Black]

What did modric say ?

 

[yanno]

From the Torygraph article:

At Dinamo he had played on the left on occasion but was best used in the hole. Redknapp saw that Modric’s talent was being wasted and initially played him off a lone striker before this season switching him to playing orthodox central midfield.
“I feel good in this position,” Modric said. “I play in that position for the national team and this season Harry started to put me there and I’m happy. It’s not as attacking as the left of midfield but I get a lot of the ball and I like that.”

As B-C has pointed out, the reporter gets this wrong. Redknapp did not play Luka "in the hole", in the commonly understood meaning of the VDV/Kaka role as a Number Ten playmaker floating off a lone striker.

Redknapp did what he'd done with Andres D'Alessandro and Niko Kranjcar at Pompey, and played Luka on the left side of midfield with a licence to cut inside looking to influence play. Both D'Alessandro and Kranjcar were Number 10s before they came to England.

The change last season with Luka was Redknapp played him centrally, in a 4-4-2, with Bale and Lennon wide. Theoretically, this gave Luka the chance to get on the ball more and dictate play. However, the move was also somewhat forced on Redknapp because Bale was playing out of his skin on the left of midfield, and so the logical thing was to move our best player into CM.

Personally, I'm not convinced that Luka would be as effective as an out and out Number 10 as Rafa Van Der Vaart, because VDV is an excellent finisher and Luka is a rubbish finisher.

Modric's quotes above make it clear that he is playing deeper than a Number 10, both for Spurs and Croatia. He demands the ball, keeps it and attempts to dictate the play like - yes, I'll say it - a young Xavi.

 

[bomberH]

What did modric say ?

'Please let me go Daniel *sobs* pleeeease'

 

[bomberH]

If I remember correctly, Modric was moved to the middle against Arsenal/Chelsea as a result of Palacios picking up a suspension. We them beat both those teams within a few days so he stuck with it. That 10th booking Palacios picked up at Man U (I think) which ruled him out of those 2 massive games, effectively was the beginning of the end of his Spurs career.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

No, Modric had been playing in the centre from before that, with increasing regularity from the Fulham away FA Cup game onwards. The Man U game was right after the victories over Chelsea and Arsenal, and we lost with a side that had Hudd in the middle with Palacios, Modric on the left and Bale at left back.

 

[seneca]

If I remember correctly, Modric was moved to the middle against Arsenal/Chelsea as a result of Palacios picking up a suspension. We them beat both those teams within a few days so he stuck with it. That 10th booking Palacios picked up at Man U (I think) which ruled him out of those 2 massive games, effectively was the beginning of the end of his Spurs career.

booking was in the cup semi against portsmouth i thought, but you're right, after that hudd and modric became the centre mids and were excellent.

 

[mattyspurs]

So then, has the OP passed on the sufficient info to a mod/admin yet, or are we treating this with the contempt it obviously deserves?

 

[bomberH]

No, Modric had been playing in the centre from before that, with increasing regularity from the Fulham away FA Cup game onwards. The Man U game was right after the victories over Chelsea and Arsenal, and we lost with a side that had Hudd in the middle with Palacios, Modric on the left and Bale at left back.

I must've got Man U wrong and it was probably Pompey as suggested, but I'm pretty sure he hardly played in the middle before those games against Arsenal and Chelsea. He definitely only played at CM for those games due to Palacios' suspension.

 

[Spurger King]

The earliest I remember him playing in the middle was against Stoke when he dominated the game. That was in the '2 points from 8 games' season.

 

[DEFchenkOE]

Didn't he play behind the striker away to Newcastle when he scored and we drew 1-1?

 

[jonathanhotspur]

Didn't he play behind the striker away to Newcastle when he scored and we drew 1-1?

I think we lost that one 2-1 (2008) but I think you are correct. As far as I can remember, we certainly experimented with him in the hole in a number of games around that time. In fact, I am almost certain he played in the hole when we lost 4-2 against Bolton last season.

 

[bensayid]

So then, has the OP passed on the sufficient info to a mod/admin yet, or are we treating this with the contempt it obviously deserves?

yes i have but i've got no response as of yet

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Ok, only you can honestly know that but it was pretty clear from your tone that you thought I had just invented it. Fine.

What I wanted to hear was exactly what Modric had said that contradicted what VDV had said. And to be honest, I don't think it did.

No one is saying Redknapp isn't at fault sometimes and that he hasn't been more poignantly over the last six months in making mistakes. But you cannot say that the above players by their very presence win us games in spite of Redknapp. It is nonsensical when you consider all of them.

None, with the possible exception of VDV and Palacios, just appeared and won us games. All had to be coached and used effectively. Modric-we have covered- and credits Redknapp with his improvement. Not exclusively, not perhaps as the main facilitator of his rise but a significant factor. Ditto Bale.

I'm not saying the above players win us every game, and great players will often win games for any manager, but I have always said that this, more than any other philosophy, has what Redknapp has relied upon more than coaching and tactical ability, which is why IMO, despite having some fantastic teams under him, he has actually achieved very little in 20+ years of management, and has on numerous occasions under achieved.

Throughout Redknapp's career I have never ever been impressed with he style of football any of his teams have played routinely, and I don't just mean playing with a swagger, I mean that despite having some great players I have mostly felt his teams were poorly organised, had no over-riding philosophy, played disjointed football and didn't play with any real cohesion.I have been impressed with some of the players he has purchased though.

As far as Modric crediting Redknapp, he only had 8 games under Ramos, and 112 for Redknapp. What else can he say.

You honestly think Bale has improved ? Because I don't. I think in the last 8 months he's gone backwards and the weaknesses in his game aren't being addressed at all. Palacios, Lennon, Dawson, Bassong, Huddlestone, Bale, Defoe, Crouch, Gomes, Hutton, Corluka, Pavlyuchenko; have any of these players improved, or become more rounded players (apart from Hudd, bum bum)?

And Sandro was hardly an instant success. He was never shit for us even when people said as much here, but he clearly improved over the course of the winter. If you want to think, again, that that had nothing to do with coaching and management then fine. But it flies in the face of common sense.

Sandro possibly wouldn't have played much in the second half of the season if he hadn't been forced on Redknapp in Milan and excelled. Up to that point he was definitely not to the fore of Redknapp's plans. Do I think Redknapp has improved him as a player ? It is really hard to tell because I didn't see much of him in Brazil, but IMLS can maybe answer that better than me.

The central point isn't how well we employ tactics. It is Redknapp's attention to it.

For me it's both, as they are intertwined aren't they ? Our tactics are Redknapp's aren't they ? How well we employ them will almost certainly be influenced by how well Redknapp coaches them ?

VDV's comments certainly implied superficially a lax attitude but as per my original point, they are neatly contextualised not only by VDV's role and personality but by Modric's comments. I think we struggled to consistently employ such pressing and ball retention because injuries, CL football, a slight inbalance in the squad and an insipid strikeforce inhibited such consistency. That, and for sure, Redknapp's mistakes.

Honestly, I think that's lame. You train/coach everyone at the club, from first team to youth team to play this way, then no matter who is playing, they know this philosophy, they know nothing less than a certain level of movement and work rate is acceptable. I honestly don't understand why playing CL football, or getting injuries should effect a teams ability to carry out a simple work ethic. You might not do it as effectively, but you should still try.

I don't think VDV's quote was necessarily contextualised by his role or personality, or overtly contradicted by Modric's statement. I don't think because of what VDV said that Redknapp doesn't do tactics or doesn't want us to play a certain way at times, I just think that VDV's comments combined with what I see on the pitch suggest that Redknapp talks the talk but does not have the ability to always walk the walk.

 

[yanno]

Didn't he play behind the striker away to Newcastle when he scored and we drew 1-1?

If this is the game you mean, away to Newcastle in January 2011, VDV played in the hole.

The Torygraph article is from December 2010.

if you look at our teamsheets from season 2009-10 here, we played with two strikers in a 4-4-2 almost every game. So, Luka was either playing CM or LM, not as a Number 10 off a single striker.

For season 2010-11, when we (occasionally) played with a Number 10, it was almost always Rafa VDV, not Luka.

The reporter in the Torygraph article is simply wrong.

 

[stevenqoz]

Interesting to hear people talking about a 'pressing game' Modern day Barcelona and crazy gang Wimbledon both played a pressing game only one being short pass and move the other being almost route one and and press. To get any philosophy into the bones of a club requires time and numerous coaching bodies on the ground to work with all levels at a club. Players need to hear a common message in clear understandable langiage and terminology to do this. Harry certainly has the bodies. However there is a distinction been 'training ground' coaching and game day 'coaching'. The former is a task shared while the latter falls almost entirely to the coach / old fashioned manager. As a game day coach Harry seems to let the players basically take much of the initiative ...the exception being if you are Sandro
In Australia there is an FFA push for 4 3 3 to adopted right through the representative set-up, while being a good system in the short it will only be as effective as the players in the squad....longer term who knows.

 

[Ionman34]

Interesting to hear people talking about a 'pressing game' Modern day Barcelona and crazy gang Wimbledon both played a pressing game only one being short pass and move the other being almost route one and and press. To get any philosophy into the bones of a club requires time and numerous coaching bodies on the ground to work with all levels at a club. Players need to hear a common message in clear understandable langiage and terminology to do this. Harry certainly has the bodies. However there is a distinction been 'training ground' coaching and game day 'coaching'. The former is a task shared while the latter falls almost entirely to the coach / old fashioned manager. As a game day coach Harry seems to let the players basically take much of the initiative ...the exception being if you are Sandro
In Australia there is an FFA push for 4 3 3 to adopted right through the representative set-up, while being a good system in the short it will only be as effective as the players in the squad....longer term who knows.

Good point Steven. I used to coach at Queensland Lions, until I moved, and that was the philosophy that was put to us at the start of my final season there. The point that was made to us was that it is conducive to a higher technical standard of Football and, therefore, more attractive to watch.