Match Ratings v Everton

[Gaz_Gammon]

And yet we still should have won the game. We did enough to do so second half. Will be interesting how poch lines up against Palace at home.

Certainly can't see him playing two DM's against a team that can't score for toffee.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

And yet we still should have won the game. We did enough to do so second half. Will be interesting how poch lines up against Palace at home.

I meant for the first 45 Everton were tactically superior - without the ball. As I said in my OP, even then I don't think they deserved to be a goal up. They created nothing, even on the break, they scored a flooky free kick and their other chance was a 1v1 that Rose gifted them out of nothing.

 

[cozzo]

Yes but again he wins the ball shrugs off 2/3 players charges towards the oppositions box and then passes sideways, as much as i like him he contributes very little in terms of creativity or goal threat.

So basically ..we are not missing him??

 

[Mr Pink]

I meant for the first 45 Everton were tactically superior - without the ball. As I said in my OP, even then I don't think they deserved to be a goal up. They created nothing, even on the break, they scored a flooky free kick and their other chance was a 1v1 that Rose gifted them out of nothing.

Yeah totally agree, basically what I was trying to say.

 

[JayB]

Certainly can't see him playing two DM's against a team that can't score for toffee.

I think it's pretty clear that Poch rates Dier and Wanyama more highly than the other midfielders he currently has available for selection. I personally think it would be a mistake to pair them unless we are looking to set up especially defensively but I expect them to both start the next three league matches nevertheless.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

On the Dier part you may remember I was one of his biggest backers for the CDM spot. I thought he could do it and do it well. Where we differed, and I didn't make my point clearly last year, was that I felt you were letting the perfect be the enemy of the good enough - and he surpassed good enough.

Your point on Dier and Wanyama's deficiencies is well taken and I wholeheartedly agree. The problem is that the archetypal CDM of which you speak does not grow on trees and when they become available they cost a pretty penny. But in time I am hoping that Dier can start 1/2 touching the center of the park to death a la Busquets thereby bypassing the pressure. Of course it will take more intelligent movement from our fullbacks. I imagine you think Walker can do it like Alves as I have never seen you have any complaints about his football intelligence

And yes, the CM2 would be more ideal if the Dembele role was manned by someone that could do what the moose does but with a greater range of passing. I was happy to know that we made contact with Rode from Bayern and puzzled to find out that Hoijberg went to Soton on the cheap. And really angry that we let Ever Banega (partnered with krychowiak (sp?) at Sevilla to Europa) go to Inter on a FREE!!!! I've wanted Banega (and feghouli) since his Valencia days with Unai Emery. I'm aware of his past personal demons but his talent is undeniable.

Agree, the uber CM is a rare species, but if we are going to play the brand of football we are trying to play - i.e. front foot football, press, steal, transition etc - we have to get the blend right and it can't be two from Dier, Dembele, Wanyama most weeks, it's just too conservative and risk averse.

I hold my hands up and say Dier made a much better job of playing CM than I thought he would, but I am still ultimately less convinced than many by him in a CM2 - or more importantly, our version of football CM2 - and as I've said all along, I still see his future ultimately as a CB, and a damn fine one.

I think this season will really be interesting in terms of Dier's CM future. For me the honeymoon's over, I think he's probably inherited the Dawson "wholesome loveable English all-round good egg" mantle, and as such got more leeway and will still get more leeway than some on bad days, and also because people were still viewing him as this rooky CB playing CM and making a damn good fist of it. But CM's at spurs rarely get more than a season's grace, and if Dier doesn't improve various facets of his game I think his CM place is going to be under pressure, especially now we've got shot of Bentaleb (who I think was the best left side "metronome" balance to Dier's right side solidity and also added a dedicated pure, dynamic busy **** in Wanyama, who probably balances off having a "metronome" in there better than Dier or Dembele do in a CM2.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Agree, the uber CM is a rare species, but if we are going to play the brand of football we are trying to play - i.e. front foot football, press, steal, transition etc - we have to get the blend right and it can't be two from Dier, Dembele, Wanyama most weeks, it's just too conservative and risk averse.

I hold my hands up and say Dier made a much better job of playing CM than I thought he would, but I am still ultimately less convinced than many by him in a CM2 - or more importantly, our version of football CM2 - and as I've said all along, I still see his future ultimately as a CB, and a damn fine one.

I think this season will really be interesting in terms of Dier's CM future. For me the honeymoon's over, I think he's probably inherited the Dawson "wholesome loveable English all-round good egg" mantle, and as such got more leeway and will still get more leeway than some on bad days, and also because people were still viewing him as this rooky CB playing CM and making a damn good fist of it. But CM's at spurs rarely get more than a season's grace, and if Dier doesn't improve various facets of his game I think his CM place is going to be under pressure, especially now we've got shot of Bentaleb (who I think was the best left side "metronome" balance to Dier's right side solidity and also added a dedicated pure, dynamic busy **** in Wanyama, who probably balances off having a "metronome" in there better than Dier or Dembele do in a CM2.

BC, you say we can't play 2 of Dier, Wanyama and Dembele, but I hope you realise we were bloody unbeaten last season in the league when Dier and Dembele started at CM?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

BC, you say we can't play 2 of Dier, Wanyama and Dembele, but I hope you realise we were bloody unbeaten last season in the league when Dier and Dembele started at CM?

Do you honestly think that every week we were unbeaten was solely down to having Dier and Dembele in CM2 ? Or do you accept that we improved defensively all over the pitch and that accounted for a lot of our defensive performances last year ?

Do you honestly believe we needed (or will need) two more risk averse CM's every week ? Do you not think there are times when this is very counter intuitive to a philosophy that has front foot, quick transition football as one of it's fundamental tenets ?

I accept that there will be games when having two of these (Dier/Dembele/Wanyama) will be viable from a defensive bias requirement, but I think there will be many more games where I'd like to see one of them paired with a more quick thinking, progressive "metronomic" type.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Do you honestly think that every week we were unbeaten was solely down to having Dier and Dembele in CM2 ? Or do you accept that we improved defensively all over the pitch and that accounted for a lot of our defensive performances last year ?

The correlation between Dier and Dembele starting at CM and us not losing is undeniable.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

The correlation between Dier and Dembele starting at CM and us not losing is undeniable.

As is the correlation with us having the best defensive front four in the league by a huge margin (at time of last analysis), the best CB pairing in the league and a team that defended as team.

In 2009-10 we achieved our second best defensive record (41 goals) with Dawson and Bassong playing the most games as a CB pairing. Did that mean we couldn't improve on that pairing ?

You didn't answer my questions?

 

[werty]

Dembele may be risk averse, but he's the only centre midfielder we have who will look for the ball when we're been pressed and can receive it under pressure and come away with it . Ridiculous that we haven't bought another to rotate with him.

 

[heelspurs]

Agree, the uber CM is a rare species, but if we are going to play the brand of football we are trying to play - i.e. front foot football, press, steal, transition etc - we have to get the blend right and it can't be two from Dier, Dembele, Wanyama most weeks, it's just too conservative and risk averse.

I hold my hands up and say Dier made a much better job of playing CM than I thought he would, but I am still ultimately less convinced than many by him in a CM2 - or more importantly, our version of football CM2 - and as I've said all along, I still see his future ultimately as a CB, and a damn fine one.

I think this season will really be interesting in terms of Dier's CM future. For me the honeymoon's over, I think he's probably inherited the Dawson "wholesome loveable English all-round good egg" mantle, and as such got more leeway and will still get more leeway than some on bad days, and also because people were still viewing him as this rooky CB playing CM and making a damn good fist of it. But CM's at spurs rarely get more than a season's grace, and if Dier doesn't improve various facets of his game I think his CM place is going to be under pressure, especially now we've got shot of Bentaleb (who I think was the best left side "metronome" balance to Dier's right side solidity and also added a dedicated pure, dynamic busy **** in Wanyama, who probably balances off having a "metronome" in there better than Dier or Dembele do in a CM2.

Mostly agree. Shame about Bentaleb as I think there is a player there, if he were to stop trying to show us he is a player. But the uber CM is the type of player that is not financially available to us. Maybe development? Don't know how high Onomah's ceiling is as I never watch any youth games. We lucked into one but he fu***d off to madrid. And even he wasn't as complete as he has become and we still couldn't financially (and ambition) keep hold of him.

Got a geeky long post coming in the tactical thread (may be a while). Will tag you.

EDIT: We should look at this guy. He seems a relatively decent player for our needs:

Spoiler: Do you think he could do a job?

 

[Shadydan]

Dembele may be risk averse, but he's the only centre midfielder we have who will look for the ball when we're been pressed and can receive it under pressure and come away with it . Ridiculous that we haven't bought another to rotate with him.

Because it's practically impossible to replace Dembele - how many players can do what he does?

 

[JayB]

Do you honestly think that every week we were unbeaten was solely down to having Dier and Dembele in CM2 ? Or do you accept that we improved defensively all over the pitch and that accounted for a lot of our defensive performances last year ?

Do you honestly believe we needed (or will need) two more risk averse CM's every week ? Do you not think there are times when this is very counter intuitive to a philosophy that has front foot, quick transition football as one of it's fundamental tenets ?

While I'm absolutely in agreement that we are in need of a more progressive CM, the disparity between our performances/results with Dembele in the side and those with him missing was absolutely massive last season. If Dembele were not a major factor in our points return we would not have dropped off so dramatically in his absence.

We struggle mightily against teams that set up defensively against us and would obviously benefit from a CM who can move the ball around more quickly and incisively under those circumstances, but it's simply undeniable that the Dembele/DM combination has proven to be enormously effective against teams that play us honestly.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

While I'm absolutely in agreement that we are in need of a more progressive CM, the disparity between our performances/results with Dembele in the side and those with him missing was absolutely massive last season. If Dembele were not a major factor in our points return we would not have dropped off so dramatically in his absence.

We struggle mightily against teams that set up defensively against us and would obviously benefit from a CM who can move the ball around more quickly and incisively under those circumstances, but it's simply undeniable that the Dembele/DM combination has proven to be enormously effective against teams that play us honestly.

I don't think that's true. We gave up 4 points from winning positions in 2 of our last four games (1-0 west Brom and 2-0 up at Chelsea) with Dembele in our Cm. (With Dier too - the so called holy grail of cm pairing).

Dier and Dembele both started the game we chucked 2 goals away to Stoke at the start of the season too (though Dembele started as an AM that day I believe).

And (@THFCSPURS19 ) for people saying we were "unbeaten" with these two, I think I'm right in saying that no cm pairing gave up more points from winning positions either.

Now, I don't think we can blame just these two for that any more than you can claim these two should take sole credit for being unbeaten as a cm pair, but I think it proves that not everything is perfect just because these two play together.

 

[lukespurs7]

Glad Bolasie is gone.

 

[WiganSpur]

Dembele definitely possesses more dynamism than Wanyama and Dier. His vision and ability to release quickly may not be great, but most of the time his passes are tidy and he offers the ability to beat players and advance into the final third more so than Dier or Wanyama will. It's actually quite a unique trait for a central midfield player.

He's so crucial to us because he hardly ever loses individual midfield battles, he is so strong and so composed. It always seems as though the team gets a huge mental lift when he's there. I do agree he has his faults in possession but he's still undroppable because he is so so good at what he does best.

I think he is a big reason why we dominate possession so much and concede little goals. Yes it may not be productive possession in the attacking sense but it definitely helps us defensively, combined with his ever improving defensive game as well. If you drop Dembele so you can move the ball quicker then it will only lead to more goals conceded. The stats will back that up, we fell to pieces last season when we used far physically weaker, less composed alternatives to Dembele most of the time.

To be quite honest it might be useful for Pochettino to understand this and maybe adapt the formation with a 3 man midfield when we are having problems like we did at Goodison in the first half. Maybe you take Alli off, bring say Winks on and go 4-3-3 however that would probably hinder our ability to take chances.

It's certainly an interesting problem.

 

[steve]

The correlation between Dier and Dembele starting at CM and us not losing is undeniable.

Correlation doesn't necessarily equate to causation....

 

[THFCSPURS19]

And (@THFCSPURS19 ) for people saying we were "unbeaten" with these two, I think I'm right in saying that no cm pairing gave up more points from winning positions either.

14 out of the 20 points we lost from winning positions whilst Dembele and Dier started at CM. I have no idea how that compares to other CM pairings, but that's 30% fewer lost points when Dembele started.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

14 out of the 20 points we lost from winning positions whilst Dembele and Dier started at CM. I have no idea how that compares to other CM pairings, but that's 30% fewer lost points when Dembele started.

So what I said was correct though?

And you still haven't answered any of my questions I asked you a few posts back?