Opinion of AVB in hindsight?

[Jules_PF]

I think AVB was a young manager who had plenty of learning to do, but I think he was doing a very good job under very difficult circumstances.

I think he was probably the only coach/manager we'd had in the last few years who's work on the coaching field wad clearly visible. I think we were better disciplined as a result of his coaching.

I think all coaches are hostages to fortune in terms of the quality of player they have - look at ManU, Dortmund, Liverpool, Arsenal & Chelsea in recent years to see what happens when great players come and go.

I think achieving our record points haul after losing Modric and VDV (and effectively Adebayor) was a phenomenal achievement. We then lost our last top quality player and we were still chugging along totting up points at a similar rate.

We've now had a whole year of looking equally devoid of creative wit, so we can all see the problem isn't one of pure coaching, and we look much worse defensively IMO.

I think AVB's inability to integrate the development group better was his biggest failing, but if the direction from Levy was top 4 or else, and you add in a fractious relationship with Sherwood you can mitigate it to an extent. AVB was happy to pick Rose and Townsend over the experienced Ekotto and our most expensive signing Lamela.

AVB was heavily criticised for ostracising Adebayor, but Pochettino has now added several others to Adebayor's black ball club.

I don't have a problem with a coach isolating and jettisoning players who are bad for group harmony, discipline and morale, I just wish AVB had been given the same backing to get things done his way and received a little more encouragement (in the form of tolerance of results and league position etc) to integrate development players, and the initial judgement that he was a young progressive coach with strong ideas given proper time and trust to achieve - or fail.

Top post. Take the rest of the day off.

Your work is done.

 

[Shea]

Porto:
2 European Cups/Champions League
2 UEFA Cup/Europa League
1 European Cup Winner's Cup

Juve:
2 European Cups/Champions League
3 UEFA Cup/Europa League
1 European Cup Winner's Cup

Inter:
3 European Cups/Champions League
3 UEFA Cup/Europa League
0 European Cup Winner's Cup

Not much difference really.

Well yes they're a successful club - though I am talking about the modern game ie the modern CL era where Europa cup has become second rate and not even contested by the elite clubs (they only fall in to it following a poor performance in either their domestic league or group stages of CL) so I wouldn't really count the other European titles in to account

Yes the won the CL once with Jose, but it was a bit of a freak and down to Jose's skills and luck, Wigan won the FA cup recently too but they're not an elite club domestically

I'm not meaning to disrespect Porto - they're a great club, with great history and have a high standing in European football just like Benfecia but I don't consider them to be one of the top clubs in Europe, as in top tier/Elite clubs

There are more factors in play than just tangible success too. I've mentioned over and over again their nature as a selling club who hire from with in and players and managers alike use as a stepping stone for bigger/better things. Top clubs don't have that situation. They're a successful club but not an elite level club in my opinion all things considered and as a result a manager doesn't have the same levels of stress and expectations (it's not as difficult to manage them as it is to manage a Chelsea or a Real Madrid - hence AVB being successful with Porto in his comfort zone and flopping at Chelsea)

 

[Tom Pops]

Really? Real Madrid aren't as dominant? Oh......ok then!

No they really aren't, especially at the time when Barcelona were hands down the best team in Europe

 

[Jules_PF]

His point wasn't about how big the club was, it was about how big an achievement winning the league with that club was, versus how big an achievement AVB's two title wins are.

So yes, Real are a big and dominant force in Spain, but they are by no means THE ONLY dominant force in Spain and at the time, were playing second fiddle to one of the greatest club sides ever seen in their own league, but still won it under Mourinho.

Similarly, while Inter might be a massive club, they are by no means the only massive club in Italy and in terms of their dominance on the European stage, to be European Champions with them, was a pretty extraordinary feat of management, particularly as they had to play almost an entire leg against Barcelona with 10 men.

Russian league past 10 years (prior to AVB) Zenit 3 titles, CSKA 4, Rubin 2. So Zenit are not the ONLY dominant force in Russia.

 

[Shea]

Porto:
2 European Cups/Champions League
2 UEFA Cup/Europa League
1 European Cup Winner's Cup

Juve:
2 European Cups/Champions League
3 UEFA Cup/Europa League
1 European Cup Winner's Cup

Inter:
3 European Cups/Champions League
3 UEFA Cup/Europa League
0 European Cup Winner's Cup

Not much difference really.

Well yes they're a successful club - though I am talking about the modern game ie the modern CL era where Europa cup has become second rate and not even contested by the elite clubs (they only fall in to it following a poor performance in either their domestic league or group stages of CL) so I wouldn't really count the other European titles in to account

Yes the won the CL once with Jose, but it was a bit of a freak and down to Jose's skills and luck, Wigan won the FA cup recently too but they're not an elite club domestically

I'm not meaning to disrespect Porto - they're a great club, with great history and have a high standing in European football just like Benfecia but I don't consider them to be one of the top clubs in Europe, as in top tier/Elite clubs

There are more factors in play than just tangible success too. I've mentioned over and over again their nature as a selling club who hire from with in and players and managers alike use as a stepping stone for bigger/better things. Top clubs don't have that situation. They're a successful club but not an elite level club in my opinion all things considered and as a result a manager doesn't have the same levels of stress and expectations (it's not as difficult to manage them as it is to manage a Chelsea or a Real Madrid - hence AVB being successful with Porto in his comfort zone and flopping at Chelsea)

Honestly I just took for granted that everyone saw Porto in the same light as I do - a good and successful European club but not part of the elite.I suppose peoples perception of these things can differ, it honestly never crossed my mind to consider them a top club of Europe. But regardless for the context of the AVB debate it remains the same, his success there in no way proves him capable of succeeding in a bigger league with a club with different demands and pressure while competing against more difficult opposition as he went straight from Porto and flopped badly at Chelsea and at Zenit he had merely repeated (less successfully when you take Europe in to account) what he did with Porto

 

[Shea]

Russian league past 10 years (prior to AVB) Zenit 3 titles, CSKA 4, Rubin 2. So Zenit are not the ONLY dominant force in Russia.

No as mentioned earlier Zenit had not won the league the two previous seasons prior to AVB's title win. So it's not to be sniffed at, but the demographic of Russian football has changed and left Zenit as by far the strongest team in the league

CSKA had been champs the two previous seasons - this year they sold their best player to Roma and were not as strong as they had been.

Credit to AVB for getting Zenit performing better than they had the two years previous - but realistically they are comparatively stronger than their rivals and spend considerably more money than the other clubs domestically so they SHOULD be the only force in the Russian league right now and winning the league while a good achievement is still only making par for the course rather than something so impressive it can be used to prove him capable of success at a club like us or even Chelsea now

The same thing can be said about his win at Porto, they hadn't won the league the year prior to him taking over and teams like Sporting and Benfica are established forces. The year he had with them however he had by far and away the strongest team in the league

That's not to dismiss his achievement there - he won the league by some 20 points and was unbeaten for the whole season in addition to his cup win and European success. It's undoubtedly impressive, certainly more so than his league win a Zenit on paper. But context is important, after his success at Porto he was still unable to handle the pressures and demands of managing a top club in a top league at Chelsea and he failed miserably, failing again with us

So if the Porto success can't be used as evidence for potential to succeed in England why would a less impressive campaign with the strongest team in Russia change that? Yes it's still an impressive thing for a manager to achieve but in context, like at Porto, his success has come while in charge of the best team in the league and that is his comfort zone If he can remain successful long term and do so in a higher caliber league with greater demands facing stiffer competition remains to be seen, he certainly couldn't or wasn't ready during his spell in England

 

[Jules_PF]

No they really aren't, especially at the time when Barcelona were hands down the best team in Europe

Since 1990 league winners. The start of a Barca dominance period of 4 leagues in a row.
Barcelona 12, Real 7, others 5. Still seem pretty dominant to me. Strip out those 4 and start at 1994, well, not much difference.

 

[Shea]

Since 1990 league winners. The start of a Barca dominance period of 4 leagues in a row.
Barcelona 12, Real 7, others 5. Still seem pretty dominant to me. Strip out those 4 and start at 1994, well, not much difference.

You've confused me

You've stated that Real are pretty dominant and used evidence to prove that they and Barca have been pretty even in recent times and completely contradict your statement that Real are pretty dominant

Or am I misunderstanding you?

Real aren't dominant over Barca, at best it's neck and neck currently and in the last 10 years Barca have had the edge if anything

 

[Jules_PF]

You've confused me

You've stated that Real are pretty dominant and used evidence to prove that they and Barca have been pretty even in recent times and completely contradict your statement that Real are pretty dominant

Or am I misunderstanding you?

Real aren't dominant over Barca, at best it's neck and neck currently and in the last 10 years Barca have had the edge if anything

The point was, are they the dominant force as opposed to the ONLY dominant force. As it was implied Zenit were the only. They are not as CSKA have won more titles. Similar to Real and Barcelona.

 

[Gaz_Gammon]

[

Or am I misunderstanding you?

Real aren't dominant over Barca, at best it's neck and neck currently and in the last 10 years Barca have had the edge if anything

Pont was whether Zenit were as


The point was are they are dominant force as opposed to the ONLY dominant force. As it was implied Zenit were the only. They are not as CSKA have won more titles. Similar to Real and Barcelona.[/QUOTE]

I think when you look at their overall position in the footballing hierarchy Zenit, and CSKA are far from successful outside the league they both play in. The last ten seasons have seen Barca win their league titll seven times, i'd say that is being dominant.

The fact that all four teams mentioned are in limited leagues regarding the distribution of wealth and therefore competitiveness is their for all to see. I believe that the Spanish leagues are about to share out their TV revenues more equally from next season so hopefully a more balanced and competitive league will be the result.

At the end of the day it's almost the head to head games that decide the title rather than points that separate the top two sides in Spain and that cannot make for anyone taking that league seriously. At least at PL level their appears to be a changing of the guard more often now that the dominance of Man Ure has gone away, and further down the PL more and more "lower" perceived sides are winning against the perennial top four?

 

[Shea]

The point was, are they the dominant force as opposed to the ONLY dominant force. As it was implied Zenit were the only. They are not as CSKA have won more titles. Similar to Real and Barcelona.

This season though Zenit had by far the better squad and CSKA lost their main striker to Roma

Zenit were left as the one dominant force and therefore expected to win the league

Just as at Porto the year AVB won the league they had the best squad by far in spite of both Benfica and Sporting being competitive in other years

Real have never been dominant in recent years because Barca are always a major force both domestically and in Europe

I fail to see how your point makes any sense - the year AVB won at Porto and won at Zenit his teams were disproportionately stronger than his rivals regardless of what had happened in previous years - this has not been the case in Spain so your point is illogical regarding Rela

 

[Jules_PF]

Real have never been dominant in recent years because Barca are always a major force both domestically and in Europe

Is that the same Real Madrid who won the CL last season? No.... you're right, it was probably another team called Real Madrid. Or the same dominant Barcelona who lost 7 nil to Bayern Munich.

The point is simply, Zenit and Real are NOT the ONLY dominant teams in their respective league.

 

[Mullers]

The thing that I liked about AVB the most was that he was winner, he wanted to win every competition possible. People say that his signings were unrealistic but it was Levy that led him to believe that signing those kind of players were possible, he did the same thing with Ramos. Rather than trying to bullshit the head coach , he should have hired a coach that was more in keeping with our strategy. I think considering we nearly got top 4 with Dembele and Dempsey in the side, he didn't do a bad job.

 

[Krafty]

We will never know what players he wanted, what ones he didnt, and so on. All I can say that in his first season we became reliant on Bale to pull three points out of the bag as our attacking play was shocking. He either didn't or couldn't get the team playing well when going forward, and once Bale left we really struggled to create clear opportunities and score.

I don't really know how he expected us to win games, as our game plan seemed to be slowly retaining possession, edging forward like snails, then winning a set piece that, if it was a penalty resulted in a goal, or if a corner or free kick never found a Spurs player. Once the defensive solidity went we unsurprisingly got hammered, and that was the end.

 

[Gaz_Gammon]

This season though Zenit had by far the better squad and CSKA lost their main striker to Roma

Zenit were left as the one dominant force and therefore expected to win the league

Just as at Porto the year AVB won the league they had the best squad by far in spite of both Benfica and Sporting being competitive in other years

Real have never been dominant in recent years because Barca are always a major force both domestically and in Europe

I fail to see how your point makes any sense - the year AVB won at Porto and won at Zenit his teams were disproportionately stronger than his rivals regardless of what had happened in previous years - this has not been the case in Spain so your point is illogical regarding Rela

Porto were as successful with AVB in his preceding years as with him (almost).

 

[Xeeleeyid]

The thing that I liked about AVB the most was that he was winner, he wanted to win every competition possible. People say that his signings were unrealistic but it was Levy that led him to believe that signing those kind of players were possible, he did the same thing with Ramos. Rather than trying to bullshit the head coach , he should have hired a coach that was more in keeping with our strategy. I think considering we nearly got top 4 with Dembele and Dempsey in the side, he didn't do a bad job.

Don't think he tried to bullshit the coach, those signings were possible and Willian was at Hotspur way for a medical before Roman called his mate. The signings were possible, just on the unlikely side. We got some (Soldado, Paulinho, Lloris) but missed out on a fair few others due to either being guzumped or being out priced.

I think it's the acceptance of that fact and situation by AVB that created the tension. I don't think he worked well with the Spurs hierarchy and by all accounts rubbed everyone at Chelsea up the wrong way too.

 

[Shea]

Is that the same Real Madrid who won the CL last season? No.... you're right, it was probably another team called Real Madrid. Or the same dominant Barcelona who lost 7 nil to Bayern Munich.

The point is simply, Zenit and Real are NOT the ONLY dominant teams in their respective league.

The whole point in the first place was that neither Real or Barca were the sole dominant team in their division

In answer to the poster who suggested that the same could be said of Jose as is being said about AVB regarding in terms of him only having success with the best teams in the league

I refuted the suggestion that Real were the best or most dominant team in Spain because of the presence of Barca. As it both teams are European powerhouses and neither can therefore be considered to be the sole dominant force in their domestic division (unlike AVB at Porto and then Zenit)

I think maybe we have misunderstood one another (or more specifically I you) because I thought you were suggesting that Real were the dominant force in the league

As for Zenit - as I've said, this season in spite of not being the sole dominant force for the previous seasons they had by far and away the strongest, most talented and most expensive squad after CSKA had lost their best player and become a diminished force. Same as when he won with Porto, they hadn't won league the previous season but in the season he won it they were the strongest most talented squad and were supposed to win it

That's not to say winning both titles are not impressive, especially his undefeated campaign for Porto, but in context it did involve him winning titles in lower level leagues in which he was in charge of the best/strongest/most expensively developed squad. What my point is that although impressive achievements, they do not equate to him suddenly being ready or able to manage a Top club in a top league with the pressures and pitfalls that come with that

He's a young manager and has plenty of time to progress, so his failings in England do not mean he can never become a success, but he either wasn't good enough or wasn't ready when he came to England (time will tell on that) but winning with Zenit in Russia isn't proof that he is now ready because it's no more of an achievement than what he'd already done in Portugal (in fact less impressive)

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

@Shea Imagine being a Spurs-supporter, and the one thing that gets your blood really flowing is undermining a past head coach.

AVB was a decent manager, who did achieve better than he is remembered for. His and the boards values didn't always quite align, and he was subsequently cornered in such a way that his tenure ended, perhaps unfairly/prematurely.

 

[Mr Pink]

I don't think our creativity is any better under Pochettino than it was under AVB and I think defensively we are worse.



You started it.

I don't think our creativity is any better under Pochettino than it was under AVB and I think defensively we are worse.
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I don't recall us knocking 5 past Chelsea under AVB, or completely out playing Arsenal either for that matter.

I don't think we've been loads better under Pochettino in terms of creativity, but lets at least acknowledge that we have been at times. When we were looking good, we were looking streaks better in terms of the collective in the attacking sense.

We wern't scoring a goal like the one we scored at Anfield, Lamela and Eriksen combining to feed Kane, for a month of Sunday's under AVB.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

I don't think our creativity is any better under Pochettino than it was under AVB and I think defensively we are worse.
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I don't recall us knocking 5 past Chelsea under AVB, or completely out playing Arsenal either for that matter.

I don't think we've been loads better under Pochettino in terms of creativity, but lets at least acknowledge that we have been at times. When we were looking good, we were looking streaks better in terms of the collective in the attacking sense.

We wern't scoring a goal like the one we scored at Anfield, Lamela and Eriksen combining to feed Kane, for a month of Sunday's under AVB.

Yes, when we are performing good, we are better than last season, but when we are performing bad, we are so so much worse than ever before.