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Opinion of AVB in hindsight?

Xeeleeyid

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2012
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Maybe not, but do you remember every single one of our home performances bar Chelsea, Arsenal and City?

They are the only three games where I can say we were the better team and deserved three points, and I am perhaps being generous there too.

United, Liverpool, Stoke, West Ham, Palace, West Brom and Villa were the better teams against us for the majority of the game - I would argue dominated - but they were certainly the better teams.

Our victories over Swansea, Southampton, Everton, Leicester, Sunderland, Hull and Burnley have all been 'hard work' shall we say, where all the opposing teams will have been disappointed not to come away with at least a point.

We lost at home to Newcastle in a game of two halves, whilst even the victory of QPR should have seen them 2-0 up inside 20 minutes.

We have not once this season - other than the Arsenal game - showed the control or dominance that we did under the majority of teams under AVB at the Lane.

Fan boys/haters can dress it up as much as they want, but that is the reality.

Fan boys and haters? What are you talking about. We didn't show any control or dominance under AVB, control and dominance is working the opposition keeper and scoring goals throughout the match.

Rather than a lessening of control and dominance what we havr seen is an instruction to move the ball forward aggressively and early, relinquishing dominance of sideways unthreatening passing for more chances and goals scored, but maybe in the process leaving ourselves more exposed at the back.

The Liverpool defeat at home plus quite a few poor early performances were when Poch was still sussing things out, loads of players were in the team He later dropped.

Most games and victories in the Prem are hard work, Its rare a team even such as Chelsea dominates from minute one to minute 90 not conceeding territory or chances.

AVB's biggest tactical flaw is valuing territory and possession above all else, even the ability to create chances and goals. It ignores a fundamental element of the British game in particular in that the best chances are often created on the break where you draw the other team out, let them have the ball then hit them hard and early when their attack breaks down.

By squeezing so high up the pitch and hogging possession to such an extent we merely forced the opposition to crowd their penalty box making it impossible to create, while leaving ourselves exposed to the quick ball over the top to pace. Time and again.

You point to games we created numerous chances in we didn't get near the performances against Arsenal, Chelsea etc this season under AVB once he had assembled his own squad in his second season.
 

Main Man

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2013
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You point to games we created numerous chances in we didn't get near the performances against Arsenal, Chelsea etc this season under AVB once he had assembled his own squad in his second season.

What utter tripe.

Firstly, AVB never had his own squad did he? I think we can all agree on that one.

Why are you disregarding AVBs first season? I tell you why, because it doesn't suit your argument.

But for the record, in AVBs second season he took charge of seven League games before the Liverpool game.

We dominated at home to Swansea, Norwhich and Hull and won without conceding. We also lost to Newcastle in the most dominate defeat I have ever seen.

We played fairly well in draws with United and Chelsea whilst we were fucking awful against West Ham and obviously Liverpool.
what we have seen is an instruction to move the ball forward aggressively and early, relinquishing dominance of sideways unthreatening passing for more chances and goals scored, but maybe in the process leaving ourselves more exposed at the back.

You've seen this, really? Have you?

Stats would suggest you haven't. We create less chances now than we ever did under AVB, and unbelievably the number of our shots which come from outside the box have increased!

I've seen three and a half good aggressive games from us this season at home.

We have bang average at best - and more often than that worse - in the rest of them.
 

benski

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2006
574
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Regardless of stats AVBs spurs were like watching paint dry. Even if we are not as defensively sound this season it least it's entertaining which is all I really wanted out of this season
 

Main Man

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2013
2,314
1,699
Regardless of stats AVBs spurs were like watching paint dry. Even if we are not as defensively sound this season it least it's entertaining which is all I really wanted out of this season

The tripe continues,

Beyond Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal - which home games have you found entertaining?
 

Xeeleeyid

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2012
1,693
3,186
The tripe continues,

Beyond Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal - which home games have you found entertaining?

The only tripe being spewed is by you I'm afraid. Who cares about stats. You can't seriously watch games this season and say we are creating less chances than under AVB. We've scored more goals than anyone outside the top 4. We are by definition one of the most successful attacking teams in the league this season.

Something you could not say under AVB by any definition you care to mention.

I found quite a few home games this season entertaining. In addition to the games you've mentioned, I thoroughly enjoyed Everton, Southampton, QPR, Leicester, Burnley, the second half versus West Ham. I'm sure I could think of others if given longer thought. The atmosphere at home games has generally been a million miles better than under AVB and Sherwood. AVB's team also crashed and burned against West Ham, at least with Poch's team you never feel we're totally dead and buried.

I didn't include AVB's first season as it was a largely successful one. However, a lot of the problems evident in the second season were there in the first, we just had Bale to score out of nothing to make up for our lack of chance creation. Again, i think this method is the corner-stone of every successful AVB team. You kill the game, meaning neither side has a hope in hell of creating a chance, then you have a specialist in long-range shots like Bale or Hulk to nick it for you.

My original point, when I was picking you up on your assertion that at times this season we have been far far worse than the worst performances under AVB, was that I don't understand how you can say this, when we have not had a repetition this season of the dreadful performances like a 0-3 home defeat to West Ham, a 6-0 and 5-1 defeats against City home and away, 4-0 and 5-0 defeats to Liverpool.

You state that AVB's squad wasn't his own, but it was close to his own as any Spurs manager, or any manager other than probably Wenger gets when they are managing a top team, who all have directors of football these days, and transfer committees and whatnot.

Do you seriously think that every manager other than AVB at Spurs gets every player they ask for? No, it was the squad assembled for his style of play, according to his input in committees and his recommendations. Paulinho has personally stated that AVB fought for Spurs to sign him.

It was his squad, the squad he built, in his image.

But do you know what, the final word on AVB's suitability as a manager of our club in particular, should go to Danny Blanchflower who said that the game is about glory, about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom.

The AVB philosophy of football is the exact opposite of that statement, it is about stifling the game, keeping the ball, moving it side to side infront of the opposition, waiting for the opposition to lose concentration for a split second out of mindless boredom...
 

Main Man

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2013
2,314
1,699
The only tripe being spewed is by you I'm afraid. Who cares about stats. You can't seriously watch games this season and say we are creating less chances than under AVB. We've scored more goals than anyone outside the top 4. We are by definition one of the most successful attacking teams in the league this season.

You criticise my use of stats then use a stat to justify your point. Unbeleivable.

I didn't include AVB's first season as it was a largely successful one. However, a lot of the problems evident in the second season were there in the first, we just had Bale to score out of nothing to make up for our lack of chance creation.

Although I think this was a ridiculous point, how is it any different to Kane who has actually scored more goals than Gareth did? Eriksen and Chadli have supported his tally granted, but so did Dempsey and Siggy, even Paulinho notched a few.

My original point, when I was picking you up on your assertion that at times this season we have been far far worse than the worst performances under AVB, was that I don't understand how you can say this, when we have not had a repetition this season of the dreadful performances like a 0-3 home defeat to West Ham, a 6-0 and 5-1 defeats against City home and away, 4-0 and 5-0 defeats to Liverpool.

I never said this, you are getting me confused with somebody else.

We suffered some terrible defeats under AVB which were painful and humiliating. However, they were few and far between, and West Ham aside, they came against teams who were simply that much better than us - as shown by Sherwood's identical very similar results against them.

This season however, we have lost to a plethora of really poor teams in quite comfortable fashion. Villa, West Brom, Newcastle and Stoke all absolutely coasted to victory at the Lane which is nothing short of appalling. It is also worth pointing out that AVB averaged a point against the top 4 teams across his full tenure which is identical to Poch's record this season. So apart from 'not losing as heavily', we haven't improved against the upper echelon of the Premier League one bit under Poch.


But do you know what, the final word on AVB's suitability as a manager of our club in particular, should go to Danny Blanchflower who said that the game is about glory, about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom.

The AVB philosophy of football is the exact opposite of that statement, it is about stifling the game, keeping the ball, moving it side to side infront of the opposition, waiting for the opposition to lose concentration for a split second out of mindless boredom...

I actually agree with your sentiment about AVB to some respect, his game plan was always with the opposition in mind. In terms of performance however and points, the AVB way has proven to be far more effective than Poch's 'philosophy' whether entertaining or not.

I would be very keen to hear what Danny Blanchflower had to say about our style of play also, but I would be amazed if he saw this as a style similar to that of those 'glory' days.

We are just as turgid now offensively as we were under AVB, but we let many more goals in now. If that's your idea of enterntainment, then yeah we are certainly better in that respect.
 
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lukespurs7

Well-Known Member
Feb 21, 2006
4,833
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Opinion not changed, wasn't good enough before still isn't, never will be, nice guy and can't work out if hes slightly ginger or not.
 

Xeeleeyid

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2012
1,693
3,186
You criticise my use of stats then use a stat to justify your point. Unbeleivable.



Although I think this was a ridiculous point, how is it any different to Kane who has actually scored more goals than Gareth did? Eriksen and Chadli have supported his tally granted, but so did Dempsey and Siggy, even Paulinho notched a few.



I never said this, you are getting me confused with somebody else.

We suffered some terrible defeats under AVB which were painful and humiliating. However, they were few and far between, and West Ham aside, they came against teams who were simply that much better than us - as shown by Sherwood's identical very similar results against them.

This season however, we have lost to a plethora of really poor teams in quite comfortable fashion. Villa, West Brom, Newcastle and Stoke all absolutely coasted to victory at the Lane which is nothing short of appalling. It is also worth pointing out that AVB averaged a point against the top 4 teams across his full tenure which is identical to Poch's record this season. So apart from 'not losing as heavily', we haven't improved against the upper echelon of the Premier League one bit under Poch.




I actually agree with your sentiment about AVB to some respect, his game plan was always with the opposition in mind. In terms of performance however and points, the AVB way has proven to be far more effective than Poch's 'philosophy' whether entertaining or not.

I would be very keen to hear what Danny Blanchflower had to say about our style of play also, but I would be amazed if he saw this as a style similar to that of those 'glory' days.

We are just as turgid now offensively as we were under AVB, but we let many more goals in now. If that's your idea of enterntainment, then yeah we are certainly better in that respect.

We are nowhere near as turgid now. Its a million miles away in an attacking sense. As I said, we are the 5th highest scorers in the division. That's not a stat, it's a fact, in that's it's not open to interpretation in the same way as a stat like possession percentage which can be interpreted a million different ways depending on variables such as what areas of the pitch the possession is in etc. Goals scored are goalless scored, end of!
 

Capocrimini

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2005
2,125
1,873
We were consistent under AVB, but suffered thrashings against the big teams, and struggled to score against everyone else.

Dug his own grave with his honest opinion about our fans, which I agreed with at the time. Think he is a decent manager, just didn't work out at Spurs, and got bullied out at Chelsea.

Think it was the right decision by Levy as once the fans are against you it's tough to recover, were the fans right to get on his back as we did though?
 

Main Man

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2013
2,314
1,699
We were consistent under AVB, but suffered thrashings against the big teams, and struggled to score against everyone else.

Dug his own grave with his honest opinion about our fans, which I agreed with at the time. Think he is a decent manager, just didn't work out at Spurs, and got bullied out at Chelsea.

Think it was the right decision by Levy as once the fans are against you it's tough to recover, were the fans right to get on his back as we did though?

I don't think the fans were right to get on his back and if they had shown him the support the majority are willing to give this guy, I think we would be a lot further down the 'project' than we are now.

But, then again conversely - has it really made much of a difference?

Yes it comes packaged in a slighlty different way, but Tottenham Hotspur will still produce a 5-7th finish irrespective of who is manager seemingly.
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Apr 1, 2005
41,363
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I don't think the fans were right to get on his back and if they had shown him the support the majority are willing to give this guy, I think we would be a lot further down the 'project' than we are now.

But, then again conversely - has it really made much of a difference?

Yes it comes packaged in a slighlty different way, but Tottenham Hotspur will still produce a 5-7th finish irrespective of who is manager seemingly.

Harry got us 4th and tims form would have been good enough to get us 4th over a whole season.
 

Main Man

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Apr 11, 2013
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Harry got us 4th and tims form would have been good enough to get us 4th over a whole season.

Harry did indeed get us 4th, twice - but they are certainly the exception to the norm aren't they? I would also argue they were easily our two best teams of certainly the last 25 years?

As for "tims form would have been good enough to get us 4th over a whole season", well that is just pure fabrication. Tim's form over the course of a season equates 72.58 points. Arsenal finished 4th with 79 points.

If AVB had remained in charge and continued to pick up points per game at the same ratio he had managed that season, guess where we would have finished?

That's right, exactly the same position we did albeit with less points (65).
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Apr 1, 2005
41,363
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Harry did indeed get us 4th, twice - but they are certainly the exception to the norm aren't they? I would also argue they were easily our two best teams of certainly the last 25 years?

As for "tims form would have been good enough to get us 4th over a whole season", well that is just pure fabrication. Tim's form over the course of a season equates 72.58 points. Arsenal finished 4th with 79 points.

If AVB had remained in charge and continued to pick up points per game at the same ratio he had managed that season, guess where we would have finished?

That's right, exactly the same position we did albeit with less points (65).

I really shouldn't listen to ss57 (where is he anyway?)
 

whitesocks

The past means nothing. This is a message for life
Jan 16, 2014
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It is not uncommon in industry for the core inner circle of a company that has found a new way of doing things to all break away to use this knowledge to form successful companies of their own.

AVB had the good fortune to work closely with one of the most successful managers in the last 15 years. Very close - he even helped to write the thick dossiers on players and formations.
He was Mourinho's right hand man, and was confided in. He was given the keys to the palace. On a plate.

And then he broke away and rejected these very same methods to do things his way instead.
No dossiers. No statistics and no detailed analysis. It really is unforgivable.
He could not make meaningful tactical changes in a game as he was totally unprepared.
And as for the players he bought, again he clearly did not have a clue how they might fit together.
Absolutely shocking.
 

VanZan

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2013
433
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Just a shit Mourinho....boring boring football we played. It worked when we had a superstar like Bale to come up with a moment of magic. We were fucked when Bale went and we bought crap. We played negatively hoping to nick a goal and win which was bad enough in itself for our glorious club. But what was worse was that it didn't even work that well!!!

Those accusations by Boris Chukhlov about AVB favoring a kind of anti-football were spot on.
 
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