Palacios [Again]

[dynamoSpurs]

Haven't seen Modric distribute the perfectly flighted and weighted balls (ha, balls) that THudd does.. I'm jst saying..

 

[Wsussexspur]

Isn't the anniversary of the death of his brother about now?

Sure that was in April/ may time.

 

[milkman]

He got us out of a lot of crap last season

True, but so far this season he hasn't performed. He has to be dropped.

 

[NEVILLEB]

Palacios needs 3 months off to sort his head out

When he joined he was one of our best players. The talent is still there but his mind is mush.

 

[bubble07]

i love wilson but his off form its there for everone to see. Charlie and Lennon are more of a concern

 

[AngerManagement]

You are completely missing the point and failing to understand the role that palacios plays. His job is to prevent the opposition from outplaying us and to ensure that we press the ball and when we have the ball to provde insurance for other "more creative" players to move forward with less fear of exposure. This he does pretty much spot on, and has just about every time he plays. Those games that he played in we dominated possession, as do all successful sides, the difference is there creative players utilise this possession to drag the opposition around the pitch and then with clever movement and the intelligence to spot and pass to that clever movement - play the incisive pass.

Whilst I don't think we could be coached better to move more intelligently than we do (we certainly have the players now), I also think that Huddlestone - whose has central QB type role - lacks that ability to think and and act quickly and incisively. He can pass, and sometimes he plays nice passes but invariably his passing is just not quite as quick and incisive as some like Modric, and he rarely does it anywhere near the final third of the pitch, even when we play 451 and this is ultimately because he lacks the physical attributes and mental dexterity to compensate. Jenas for example, may not be a visionary passer, but he can go past a man and does get himself and team mates into the final third - which is why he ends up with more assists and goals than Huddlestone per time on pitch. It's great having a nice passing style - but how effective is it when you rarely use it offensively or incisively.

How am I missing the point and failing to understand his role?

I actually stated in my post that he breaks up the opponents play and he does his role well and this results in us controlling pocession more.

Ok so we are in agreement with that point, yes I do understand all that you have said regarding his role and how he protects the back four and enables the more creative players to do what they do by shutting down the midfield and giving them the freedom of movement to create and attack etc.

That all sounds great, your stats and opinions are valid...to an extent but they do not address the fundemental issues I made, the only real point I was expressing infact (did you fail to comprehend that?)

My point is, regardless of his stats and him doing his job pretty much spot on....the end result is that in recent times (since the passing of his brother it seems) we as a team play better and perform better results wise when he is not included in the team.

All of our best results and performance at the back end of last season and the start of this season (assuming we can all agree the Man City game has been our only actual good performance thus far) have been in games in which he was not on the pitch.

I also add that even though we have more pocession and as such he has done his job in the games I eluded too (Pompey semi, Wigan home, Man U away, Young Boys away etc) we have played awfully and lost every one of those games.

So regardless of the better pocession we have, regardless of the fact that his stats are still top notch and he is still doing the job we ask him to do as well as ever according to these stats the most important stat of all is that we seem to be playing worse and attain poorer results with him in the team.

So even if we blame the creative players for not making the most of the pocession playing Palacios affords us what do we do about that? We have to do what allows our team to perform at its best. So even if Palacios is not the player at fault, he should be dropped so we can play a system that makes us as a team perform better.

I don't think anyone can argue with the performances and results of the Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City home games. Although we may not have had the same levels of pocession, we played some amazing football and actually won the games (joe hart superman antics aside)

So what I am trying to say is, there are games when we need Wilson because without him we would get over run and we need to focus on breaking up the opponents play....but it would seem more often than not now days we need to play more of our creative players and focus on doing what we do more than breaking up opponents play.

I think Wilson would be better utlised in changed formation when we can afford to have a player in the midfield whos purpose is to be an enforcer and breaker of opponents play (in the way Chelsea used makelele to free up Lampard and co) but right now I feel his presence stifles us as a creative force and the end result is we struggle to make and score chances and end up losing or drawing games we should win.

 

[RussellYid]

So... Shall I start the 'Bring Back Didier Zokora' thread?

 

[milkman]

So... Shall I start the 'Bring Back Didier Zokora' thread?

I was watching him play for Sevilla tonight, played very well. :up:

 

[SpurSince57]

He's another that makes me gasp as soon as the balls reaches his feet. You'll probably call the stat police on me, but I'm pretty certain Palacios misplaces more passes than Corluka - pretty incomparable though considering position, but what I can say with confidence is that Palacios has been noticeably bad EVERY game this season - with bad passing, vision, movement and tackling.

His passes are so often either complete howler giveaways, or knife-edge dangerous. Notice the pass "across" our own box today in the first half?? nanometres from interception. And there was no need for it.

He really is playing awfully poor. He needs to up his game, but we shouldn't be playing someone so poor when we have other options.. It's really strange and most annoying. Get rid.

Funny you should mention that. He does misplace more passes than Corluka. 0.4%, to be precise. I've got to say that it's odd you take issue with Palacios' passing when you were forever bleating on about Taarabt's being our saviour, but, hey-ho, there you go.

The 'stats police' exist to point out to certain SCers that their Labrador's on the blink. Palacios does seem to be a bit below-par, but I can't quite nail down my reasons for saying that. His passing's as good as it was for much of last season, ditto his tackling.

As for the 'get rid', that's positively infantile.

 

[Legend10]

At this moment I would have JJ as the first CM in the line up, unless he's going to play Modric in there, then a JJ Modric pairing looks very decent to me.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

Stats freaks tend to give me the shits. I mean, I like to use the Chalkboard website, but although Palacios doesn't give the ball away as much as many would have you believe, it's not the same as saying he's a good passer of the ball. And stats won't tell you when someone is guilty of having a doze.

 

[SpurSince57]

Stats freaks tend to give me the shits. I mean, I like to use the Chalkboard website, but although Palacios doesn't give the ball away as much as many would have you believe, it's not the same as saying he's a good passer of the ball. And stats won't tell you when someone is guilty of having a doze.

All this is true. However, Palacios' having an 85% pass completion rate suggests he's doing pretty well, so are some people counting the tiny handful of horror passes he's put in as the norm?

And what do you mean, a good passer of the ball?

 

[jonathanhotspur]

Of course the horrorshow passes are what stick in the mind for many. People say he can't pass the ball more than five yards-which is bollocks. People exaggerate. It's what people do. I do it myself.

When I talk about a good passer of the ball, I would be more comfortable sitting down with some of Andy Gray's gadgets, but for me, a lot of passing serves no purpose. I think Palacios can undermine the fluency of our attacking when he picks up the ball in central areas.

 

[Legend10]

A safe passer is always going to have higher completion figures than an offensive and aggresive passer.

It's probable that Ray the crab Wilkins had a higher pass completion rate in his career than an offensive probing passer like Hoddle, would that make Wilkins a better player in possesion than Hoddle?

 

[jonathanhotspur]

A safe passer is always going to have higher completion figures than an offensive and aggresive passer.

It's probable that Ray the crab Wilkins had a higher pass completion rate in his career than an offensive probing passer like Hoddle, would that make Wilkins a better player in possesion than Hoddle?

This is what I'm driving at.

I remember it being highlighted by pundits during the WC that Mascherano was picking the ball up just in front of his centre backs and passing it to his fullbacks.

 

[InOffMeLeftShin]

This is what I'm driving at.

I remember it being highlighted by pundits during the WC that Mascherano was picking the ball up just in front of his centre backs and passing it to his fullbacks.

Are you saying that is a bad thing or a good thing?

 

[jonathanhotspur]

Are you saying that is a bad thing or a good thing?

A total waste of time.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

How am I missing the point and failing to understand his role?

I actually stated in my post that he breaks up the opponents play and he does his role well and this results in us controlling pocession more.

Ok so we are in agreement with that point, yes I do understand all that you have said regarding his role and how he protects the back four and enables the more creative players to do what they do by shutting down the midfield and giving them the freedom of movement to create and attack etc.

That all sounds great, your stats and opinions are valid...to an extent but they do not address the fundemental issues I made, the only real point I was expressing infact (did you fail to comprehend that?)

My point is, regardless of his stats and him doing his job pretty much spot on....the end result is that in recent times (since the passing of his brother it seems) we as a team play better and perform better results wise when he is not included in the team.

All of our best results and performance at the back end of last season and the start of this season (assuming we can all agree the Man City game has been our only actual good performance thus far) have been in games in which he was not on the pitch.

I also add that even though we have more pocession and as such he has done his job in the games I eluded too (Pompey semi, Wigan home, Man U away, Young Boys away etc) we have played awfully and lost every one of those games.

So regardless of the better pocession we have, regardless of the fact that his stats are still top notch and he is still doing the job we ask him to do as well as ever according to these stats the most important stat of all is that we seem to be playing worse and attain poorer results with him in the team.

So even if we blame the creative players for not making the most of the pocession playing Palacios affords us what do we do about that? We have to do what allows our team to perform at its best. So even if Palacios is not the player at fault, he should be dropped so we can play a system that makes us as a team perform better.

I don't think anyone can argue with the performances and results of the Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City home games. Although we may not have had the same levels of pocession, we played some amazing football and actually won the games (joe hart superman antics aside)

So what I am trying to say is, there are games when we need Wilson because without him we would get over run and we need to focus on breaking up the opponents play....but it would seem more often than not now days we need to play more of our creative players and focus on doing what we do more than breaking up opponents play.

I think Wilson would be better utlised in changed formation when we can afford to have a player in the midfield whos purpose is to be an enforcer and breaker of opponents play (in the way Chelsea used makelele to free up Lampard and co) but right now I feel his presence stifles us as a creative force and the end result is we struggle to make and score chances and end up losing or drawing games we should win.

I'm not going past this point. I don't have the time or energy. Read what I wrote previously. You are confusing results with performances and you are also ignoring the bulk of last season in which Palacios played and in particular one of the best sequences we had when Modric came back and Huddlestone got injured and we put the run of results together that actually put us back in contention for a CL spot having previously blown it with some poor results at places like Wolves and Everton away where Huddletone was shocking - worse than any performance by any of our CM's I saw all season.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Just picking on the stats that I may or may not quote is fucking lazy and frankly shows an inability to actually comprehend the context in which I use them. I can write 10,000 fucking words of anecdotal opinion but some **** will then write "I don't trust stats they lie".

You don't have to fucking trust them, just understand the fucking context in which I'm using them.

I am not, never have, and never will say that Palacios is a fucking visionary. In the same way that I would never claim that Roy keane was a visionary, or Edgar davids.


I am saying he does his job. He has - bar the very odd exception, and I can only think of one of the cuff - always done his job. His form hasn't dipped since his brother was killed or his dropping at the end of last season.

Debate whether you think his job is important to the team dynamic, debate which combination you think is best but please stop talking nonsense about his form or performances. he is just doing what he is best at.

Blaming the Busy **** DM for us not turning 70 & 60 % possession (Wigan & WBrom) into wins is fucking stupid and shows a complete lack of rationale. You might as well say the reason we didn't win at Wbrom was because Kaboul isn't creative enough.

He's winning the ball and giving it to people like VDV, Lennon, Kranjcar, Bale, Pav and Huddelstone. What the fuck are they doing then ? Apart from VDV's beautiful ball to put Bale through what clear chance did anyone else - whose responsibility it is to create chances make for anybody else ?

 

[jonathanhotspur]

You're a bit up yourself, ain't you? Palacios didn't cover the defence well enough yesterday. His stamina has been pants for a long time now, he has been clumsy and he is doing too much ballwatching, including letting the ball bounce inside our box for the hell of it.

You can stick your context up your arse because you're seeing things.