Player Watch Player Watch - Lucas Moura

[C0YS]

I liked you post.

Even though I disagree in some parts. I liked it because this is exactly the type of conversation and debate that should be generated from such a topic - so kudos to you friend.

The reason why I disagree is because you're still using your own perspective on their viewpoints being backwards. I don't believe at all that the people who support Bolsonaro suffer from a lack of education or hold backwards views. They simply have a very different focus to what someone in our shoes would have.
When you come from a society where extreme poverty, extreme violence and crime and fantastic (not in a good way) disparity between rich and poor your daily grind will be about making sure your kids don't go hungry or that they have a roof over their head and that they are safe. LGBTQ rights would be considered a privilege in such circumstances. Any person who is going to give you a fighting chance is going to get your support. It's not backwards it's actually the best evolutionary choice.

We in the UK have been very lucky to live in a country where the level of relative poverty is low and where their are safeguards in place to stop people falling through the net at the same time people who do well are still able to live a lifestyle of their choosing to compliment their own success. We debate issues such as LGBTQ rights, animal rights, environment waste and other civic freedoms etc. With the cost of living crisis becoming worse and people (including middle income families) starting to struggle to make ends meet I can make a prediction that these rights issues that we have been discussing will very quickly disappear from public discourse and we'll be talking about poverty, helping families and the elderly survive the winter. We'll probably find a scapegoat like bankers or the energy companies and get angry at their profits and push the government to stop them from sucking us dry of every loose change we have. Our priorities will change and it won't be because we're backwards or uneducated, it will be because we're trying to survive.

I don't believe the view points are backward. I just believe their rubbish. I'm not a social Darwinist so don't really believe in 'backward'. Your focusing on the politics of Bolsonoros LGBT stuff (a massive issue in Brazil btw, not a small one, I mean almost 10% of Brazil is lgbt, one of the highest rates in the world) and those kind of issues. Now we will ignore that the context of these issues, such as gender and sexuality are often life and death issues in Brazil. It's not soft Identity politics of here. So these issues are of a different context and yes are part of the reason Bolsonaro is one of the most hated and decisive politicians in Brazil.

But we will talk about what you are saying, which is a problem. Because materialistically Bolsonaro is not a candidate who is particularly interested in tackling poverty.

We need to be careful when discussing non western countries because western prospectives often make it seem like most people are struggling to live outside Europe, while Europe everything is fine and that's just not true. 26% of Brazil is below the poverty line, compare that with 18% in the UK (the grind is real in the UK too, I've been there). It's true that Brazil has more extreme poverty, but we are not talking about a particularly poor country, but a middling economy. More or less aligned with Turkey and Servia. Brazils social issues, again, are complicated and not just about money. But gangs and machismo are massive parts of a country with real problems with violence as well as corruption.

One of the main reasons Bolsonaro won was a curroption scandal that implicated most of the political class. Bolsonaro framed himself as something different. He also won because of Christian and anti LGBT and women hating. Because these aren't issues that are ignored in Brazil as insignificant but issues that are widely talked about.

Bolsonaro, though isn't a candidate who stood for trying to help poor people, or anything of the like. I mean Bolsonaro has publically stated that he believes a solution to poverty is to make poor people infertile. Bolsonaro supports rich and middle class Brazilians and that is the primary base of his support as the neoliberal candidate. The ability for Bolsonaro to gain some support in lower classes (but never the majority) is because of his religious infused anti women, anti indigenous people, anti LGBT.

Because Bolsonaro is losing big time he has actually introduced a lot of anti poverty measures recently to try and gain back his flailing support from lower income communities.

But my point is this. You paint Lucas' position has something understandable in the Brazil context, or poor country. But Lucas' support of bolsonaro is understandable because Lucas is a rich Brazilian, and bolsonaro looks after his economic interest. Your turning it that Brazilians don't care about cultural issues but instead are materialists (we could do with more, though issues of gender and sexuality are intrinsically linked to materialist views) but if they are materialists more poorer people wouldn't vote Bolsonaro because he unapologetically doesn't represent them.

I just don't think what you are creating is, firstly accurate to how politics is constructed in Brazil, and certainly not why people voted for Bolsonaro.

 

[C0YS]

Neither a hairdresser or civil servant equates to a lot of money in Brazil. It's not the UK

But it doesn't equate to poverty either. This is a really important distinction.

 

[C0YS]

Nazism is a criminal ideology, communism is a criminal ideology, not sure what's wrong with what Lucas said. The only difference is that Nazism was rightly binned and communism hasn't, with tens of millions of people being killed in prison and concentration camps in Eastern Europe and the USSR after WW2.

People in the West think they have the best interpretation of the definition of both but the Communism one is very off. It destroyed the lives of hundreds of millions of people and I see it glorified today as the solution to the mistakes of Capitalism, disgusting.

But Lula isn't communist, not even close. So calling that nazism is bizarre, even if you do (clumsily) equate the authoritarianism of Russia to Nazism.

 

[rossdapep]

But it doesn't equate to poverty either. This is a really important distinction.

Out of curiosity, are you from/or lived in Brazil?

 

[C0YS]

Out of curiosity, are you from/or lived in Brazil?

No I have not lived in Brazil but I do know that 6k real a month is not going to be poor considering I earn roughly the same in Spain, a more expensive country, and I do fine (not great but fine).

 

[mil1lion]

It feels like the transfer window. Players are allowed opinions as long as I agree with them. I didn't care about Hoddles beliefs about disability and I don't care about Mouras beliefs. I guess you should keep your beliefs wrapped up unless they're nice and keep everyone happy.

 

[Streetspur77]

Why does the political context in Brazil matter so much?

We are in the UK and Lucas is representing, and being paid a lot of money by, an English club. As well as representing all us fans around the world.

Imagine you’re a spurs fan who’s LGBT and the club you support keep pushing how great someone who believes you don’t deserve the same rights as other spurs fans is. Or even if a member of the squad was gay?

At the very least it’s a PR disaster that makes a bit of joke of the tolerant, progressive image the club are trying to foster for themselves.

 

[C0YS]

It feels like the transfer window. Players are allowed opinions as long as I agree with them. I didn't care about Hoddles beliefs about disability and I don't care about Mouras beliefs. I guess you should keep your beliefs wrapped up unless they're nice and keep everyone happy.

I don't get this comment. Who is saying Lucas isn't allowed to have his opinions? Lucas is allowed his opinions but that doesn't mean people can't have a view on those opinions. That sounds like you are asking others to keep their beliefs under wraps. What a wonderful world where no one is ever questioned or challenged on their beliefs.

I haven't read anyone calling for him to be sacked or anything on the basis of his beliefs.

 

[wrd]

Why does the political context in Brazil matter so much?

We are in the UK and Lucas is representing, and being paid a lot of money by, an English club. As well as representing all us fans around the world.

Imagine you’re a spurs fan who’s LGBT and the club you support keep pushing how great someone who believes you don’t deserve the same rights as other spurs fans is. Or even if a member of the squad was gay?

At the very least it’s a PR disaster that makes a bit of joke of the tolerant, progressive image the club are trying to foster for themselves.

You're presenting a false premise, until Moura himself decides to say something which objectively proves what he believes, you're basically deciding that who he votes for means he shares the the exact same world view and that's seldom the case. This is the problem with Politics now, people vote for various reasons and we as humans typically do things in our own self interest but those on the opposing side want to label them X,Y,Z as a way to seemingly try and shame them into coming over to the other team but quite clearly it never works. If I took your logic then every spurs player who voted labour in the previous election is an anti-Semite when quite clearly, they and the vast majority of labour voters are not. Moura has participated in the rainbow campaign, he to the best of my knowledge hasn't said anything homophobic. He may well be given his religious beliefs but until then don't paint with conjecture.

Edit: I think it's best though to add the caveat that I really am not knowledgeable on everything Moura has ever done, I googled a little bit and nothing came up but if he has I would happily hold my hands up and say I'm incorrect.

 

[Streetspur77]

You're presenting a false premise, until Moura himself decides to say something which objectively proves what he believes, you're basically deciding that who he votes for means he shares the the exact same world view and that's seldom the case. This is the problem with Politics now, people vote for various reasons and we as humans typically do things in our own self interest but those on the opposing side want to label them X,Y,Z as a way to seemingly try and shame them into coming over to the other team but quite clearly it never works. If I took your logic then every spurs player who voted labour in the previous election is an anti-Semite when quite clearly, they and the vast majority of labour voters are not. Moura has participated in the rainbow campaign, he to the best of my knowledge hasn't said anything homophobic. He may well be given his religious beliefs but until then don't paint with conjecture.

Edit: I think it's best though to add the caveat that I really am not knowledgeable on everything Moura has ever done, I googled a little bit and nothing came up but if he has I would happily hold my hands up and say I'm incorrect.

I can’t scroll through and find and translate them now because he likes so much stuff but he has a history of liking homophobic and transphobic tweets.

Not to mention he’s never distanced himself from any of Bolsonaro’s views, which he could’ve easily done if he wanted to. Put together, I think that gives you a pretty good indication of what his views are.

 

[Locotoro]

I doubt LGBTQ people see it that way.

Not a great excuse for a footballer making millions a year though is it?

I'm not saying that all LGBTQ people see it that way. Just the one gay Brazilian that I spoke to so you'll have to accept my apology if I've extrapolated a general view based on the opinions I've heard.

On the second point, you're absolutely right that that on its own it's not a good reason but obviously we see swathes of people voting/supporting certain candidates that I or you would deem reprehensible and we should ask why? It's not because these people are idiots or uneducated. It's because the issues that are important to them are different to what we think they should be. It's actually quite pretentious of us to be telling Brazilians who they should be supporting when we're sat here in our ivory tower.

 

[rossdapep]

No I have not lived in Brazil but I do know that 6k real a month is not going to be poor considering I earn roughly the same in Spain, a more expensive country, and I do fine (not great but fine).

I'm sorry but you cannot compare Spain and Brazil.

 

[wrd]

I can’t scroll through and find and translate them now because he likes so much stuff but he has a history of liking homophobic and transphobic tweets.

Not to mention he’s never distanced himself from any of Bolsonaro’s views, which he could’ve easily done if he wanted to. Put together, I think that gives you a pretty good indication of what his views are.

Fair enough and I have no reason to doubt you personally, I just vastly prefer to believe what I myself can test to be true and I did try and google stuff but it kept coming back to Bolsonaro. If I was to take a guess I know what I think his views may be though I would hope he proves me wrong and the fact he's participated in the rainbow campaign makes me hope that living here has had an impact on his views in that arena. I just think we need to be careful on calling things a PR disaster or the possibility of conflating that because of how you vote therefore means he must see another group of human being as less than. I think it's always good to give people the benefit of the doubt even though I am really disappointed that years on he has not seen Bolsonaro for what he is. If I try and see it from his perspective I'm guessing that whatever the other main candidate is, Moura may feel that tolerating what Bolsonaro is bringing to the table is better for his country but I'd love to know how he arrived at that opinion as I'm not very knowledgeable on the differences and unfortunately we only hear 1 side. It would not be the first nor last time where people seem to vote out of what they perceive to be awful options.

The irony of this position I've taken is that as a footballer he pisses me off immensely and I so far he seems incapable of being relied upon in any meaningful tactical way and I wanted him sold but yeah.

 

[C0YS]

I'm sorry but you cannot compare Spain and Brazil.

The only thing I'm comparing is the income. I earn the same as most civil servants do in Brazil. That's unadjusted. Because the cost of living is probably lower in Brazil, if I were earning the same as I do in Spain, about 6k real, I would have a much better quality of life. So I struggle to understand how Lucas' parents were in poverty considering one parent has certainly more purchasing power than I do.

 

[wrd]

The only thing I'm comparing is the income. I earn the same as most civil servants do in Brazil. That's unadjusted. Because the cost of living is probably lower in Brazil, if I were earning the same as I do in Spain, about 6k real, I would have a much better quality of life. So I struggle to understand how Lucas' parents were in poverty considering one parent has certainly more purchasing power than I do.

This Civil Servant talk is unsubstantiated, in the Evening Standard who was directly interviewing him they said his dad was a factory worker, I'm not sure which is correct but I'd hope the Evening Standard would have their story straight given they were actually talking directly with Moura.

 

[C0YS]

This Civil Servant talk is unsubstantiated, in the Evening Standard who was directly interviewing him they said his dad was a factory worker, I'm not sure which is correct but I'd hope the Evening Standard would have their story straight given they were actually talking directly with Moura.

Yeah, that might be the case, there are conflicting reports. In any case it is largely irrelevant.

 

[mil1lion]

I don't get this comment. Who is saying Lucas isn't allowed to have his opinions? Lucas is allowed his opinions but that doesn't mean people can't have a view on those opinions. That sounds like you are asking others to keep their beliefs under wraps. What a wonderful world where no one is ever questioned or challenged on their beliefs.

I haven't read anyone calling for him to be sacked or anything on the basis of his beliefs.

I've seen a few comments suggesting he should have kept his views to himself or it's bad PR or whatever. I haven't said people can't have their own opinions just that it doesn't matter what his views are.

 

[Japhet]

Seems to me that his most damning views eminate from being a devout Catholic rather than being a practicing Nazi which is what he's being vilified for.

 

[Locotoro]

Yeah, that might be the case, there are conflicting reports. In any case it is largely irrelevant.

I agree the job is irrelevant but I can tell you 6k real is below the national average. Especially if you're living in Sao Paulo and paying an average 4.5k per month for a 2 bed apartment.

 

[Locotoro]

Just want to add this is a good discussion and I can see it's being had in good faith with intelligent responses on all sides of the conversation. Well done SC