Player Watch Player Watch - Lucas Moura

[werty]

Seems to me that his most damning views eminate from being a devout Catholic rather than being a practicing Nazi which is what he's being vilified for.

Is he definitely Catholic? There's apparently a big decline in Catholicism in Brazil, with Evangelism on the rise. They seem to be the biggest supporters of Bolsonaro.

 

[Streetspur77]

Fair enough and I have no reason to doubt you personally, I just vastly prefer to believe what I myself can test to be true and I did try and google stuff but it kept coming back to Bolsonaro. If I was to take a guess I know what I think his views may be though I would hope he proves me wrong and the fact he's participated in the rainbow campaign makes me hope that living here has had an impact on his views in that arena. I just think we need to be careful on calling things a PR disaster or the possibility of conflating that because of how you vote therefore means he must see another group of human being as less than. I think it's always good to give people the benefit of the doubt even though I am really disappointed that years on he has not seen Bolsonaro for what he is. If I try and see it from his perspective I'm guessing that whatever the other main candidate is, Moura may feel that tolerating what Bolsonaro is bringing to the table is better for his country but I'd love to know how he arrived at that opinion as I'm not very knowledgeable on the differences and unfortunately we only hear 1 side. It would not be the first nor last time where people seem to vote out of what they perceive to be awful options.

The irony of this position I've taken is that as a footballer he pisses me off immensely and I so far he seems incapable of being relied upon in any meaningful tactical way and I wanted him sold but yeah.

Get your point but if he was such a reluctant Bolsonaro supporter you might expect he’d shut up about it. Whether he’s homophobic or not, he’s consistently expressing support for a fascist, homophobe, sexist etc and that’s not compatable with Spurs in 2022.

In reference to your point on his ability, I agree which makes it even stranger the club are willing to risk undoing all their good work on making the club more inclusive to accommodate him.

 

[Japhet]

Is he definitely Catholic? There's apparently a big decline in Catholicism in Brazil, with Evangelism on the rise. They seem to be the biggest supporters of Bolsonaro.

An assumption on my part, but I'd be surprised if it was wrong. I know Moura's very 'religious' and a lot of Bolsonaro's more extreme views also seem to be rooted in Catholicism.

 

[wrd]

Get your point but if he was such a reluctant Bolsonaro supporter you might expect he’d shut up about it. Whether he’s homophobic or not, he’s consistently expressing support for a fascist, homophobe, sexist etc and that’s not compatable with Spurs in 2022.

In reference to your point on his ability, I agree which makes it even stranger the club are willing to risk undoing all their good work on making the club more inclusive to accommodate him.

I reckon we were quite keen to move him on, I can't remember exactly what I read about his contract but I get the feeling we were hoping to cash in but will let him move on as soon as we have an opportunity to bolster numbers.

Yeah I think that's a fair point in terms of him being vocal, I don't know the context of whether he's being asked but my understanding is he tends to be quite active on social media judging by what you and others have said. I'll be honest I'm quite cynical when it comes to what's compatible with Spurs and that's nothing against Spurs directly but these companies are shape shifters depending on what's best for business, I really don't trust them to have any moral fibre whatsoever no matter what they say. I mean we can say we want players who reject homophobia and fascism but they're all going to be participating in Qatar aren't they.

See this is why I try and give people the benefit of the doubt because the second I open the lid on my cynicism it unleashes intensely

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

What do you define as a 'good person'? Someone who agrees with your own personal view of the world? Perhaps you need to consider that human beings are complex and can have certain thoughts and views that you disagree with but can at the same time be very decent people. This black and white thinking is dangerous.

Good people aren't corrupt and stealing from a nation they were elected to lead while claiming to be a good honest Christian. They don't support extrajudicial killings of suspected criminals, political opposition and rival gangs to those that support him. The man is as HodisGawd said a stain on humanity.

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

I fear this is cancel culture at its best, we can see from years of Lucas moura interviews and videos that he’s a good lad and well liked, but one not so good tweet or comment or risky view goes into the public and every man and their dog want to jump on him and ‘never see him play for spurs again’ etc.

Some on here and on the internet or generally will know more than others about the situation in Brazil for sure but no-one has lived Lucas Moura’s life in his shoes to truly understand why he believes what he does or why he supports the political party in Brazil he does.

He might not be perfect but I think it’s fairly clear from many examples he’s a likeable kind person, it’s not like he’s come out and said he actually supports Nazism or something blatantly terrible, as I said they weren’t the best comments and probably a bit inaccurate although his view/version of communism is likely different to our view of it, but I’m getting sick of this cancel culture where everyone thinks they know best and are extremely judging of others, it’s becoming too far towards a world where no-one is allowed to say anything or have any of their own views.

??

It isn't cancel culture to criticise his political views and his extreme religious views that do not fit with this countries culture. I don't want him thrown out of the club or country but I believe his views should be challenged when he makes them.

 

[jonnyrotten]

Genuine question.

Why is it so important to people to have a footballer play for their team that shares their political, socio-economic or religious viewpoint even though these people have come from exceptionally different upbringings, difficult environments and cultures that are completely different from our own relative privilege in the western world?

If you go over to R/COYS they practically want to hang the guy for his view which is ironic seeing as they are mostly proclaiming themselves to be liberal progressives.

Isn't it obvious that harsh environments create harsh viewpoints. And the only way to change that viewpoint is to expose the person to all the good that is within that group that he/she so ignorantly is against. Under the guise of freedom of speech Lucas is surely entitled to his opinion and to share it when he is asked so long as he's not inciting hatred and violence. Otherwise, I'd question which approach was closer to being authoritarian.

Saying "get him out of my club" is only polarising the issue more. Whereas opening dialogue and educating people on multiple perspectives is much more beneficial and effective.

Not directed at anyone here. I'm just not a fan of cancel culture and the response on Reddit and Twitter

It's not important, it's his personal life. That's the problem though, most other footballers keep their political lives on the downlow and he is publicising his views.

Even Marcus Rashford with all his campaigning has tried to be clear in saying he's not taking sides.

If Lucas is happy broadcasting the fact he's very right wing then he's gotta be prepared to take some heat.

 

[dontcallme]

I'm not going to get into Brazilian politics but what Moura has said is a good example of why players should rarely get involved as political commentators.

It's just divisive and takes away from his role as a footballer.

 

[HodisGawd]

I fear this is cancel culture at its best, we can see from years of Lucas moura interviews and videos that he’s a good lad and well liked, but one not so good tweet or comment or risky view goes into the public and every man and their dog want to jump on him and ‘never see him play for spurs again’ etc.

Some on here and on the internet or generally will know more than others about the situation in Brazil for sure but no-one has lived Lucas Moura’s life in his shoes to truly understand why he believes what he does or why he supports the political party in Brazil he does.

He might not be perfect but I think it’s fairly clear from many examples he’s a likeable kind person, it’s not like he’s come out and said he actually supports Nazism or something blatantly terrible, as I said they weren’t the best comments and probably a bit inaccurate although his view/version of communism is likely different to our view of it, but I’m getting sick of this cancel culture where everyone thinks they know best and are extremely judging of others, it’s becoming too far towards a world where no-one is allowed to say anything or have any of their own views.

??

It's not "cancel culture". That's just the typical lazy analysis of your average pub blowhard. Moura's views are a direct contradiction of what we as a fanbase stand for and the club stands for. We are inclusive. Bolsonaro is a fascist. You can't get much starker in contrast than that.

Cancel culture, my arse. Pathetic response.

 

[Locotoro]

It's not "cancel culture". That's just the typical lazy analysis of your average pub blowhard. Moura's views are a direct contradiction of what we as a fanbase stand for and the club stands for. We are inclusive. Bolsonaro is a fascist. You can't get much starker in contrast than that.

Cancel culture, my arse. Pathetic response.

Sorry mate but you're so wrong it's unreal.

Cancel culture is exactly the correct term. When the general public say or do things that have the effect of ostracizing or pushing out someone from a professional position because they hold a particular view that's cancel culture. Saying stuff like "Get him out of my club because he supports a fascist" is a perfect example of cancel culture - "he doesn't share my world view therefore he is evil and he shouldn't be near MY club and I will make my feelings on social media known in the hope that it makes his role difficult or he changes his view (but even if he does change his view I'll still hold it against him because a leopard never changes its spots)."

You talk about what we as a fan base and club stands for and yet you display an utter contempt for someone with an opposing political identity to you. What happened to inclusivity? Acceptance? Community and organic social development? Or is it only when it suits? What you're saying is we stand for all these things except where I disagree with a players politics. You've not given him any grace or credit for being open and willing to discuss it and actually your response is quite obnoxious to someone putting forward legitimate logic as to why Lucas may hold the views he does. Even so you likely have no knowledge of Lucas, his upbringing, his family dynamics, his personality or that of where he's from.

Do your research and read the interviews. Lucas has always shared his views when asked and has been happy to debate with people. At the very least he's genuine and open which is more than most footballers on this topic. He's clearly stated "there's a chance I am wrong and if I'm wrong I will change my mind" - that is discourse at its best.

 

[citizenG100]

It's not "cancel culture". That's just the typical lazy analysis of your average pub blowhard. Moura's views are a direct contradiction of what we as a fanbase stand for and the club stands for. We are inclusive. Bolsonaro is a fascist. You can't get much starker in contrast than that.

Cancel culture, my arse. Pathetic response.

But we can't be inclusive by excluding. That is incoherent.

 

[karennina]

Good people aren't corrupt and stealing from a nation they were elected to lead while claiming to be a good honest Christian. They don't support extrajudicial killings of suspected criminals, political opposition and rival gangs to those that support him. The man is as HodisGawd said a stain on humanity.

Ok, so yeah, but...and bear with me here...all that is much less bad, and more transitory, than the shit that has been inflicted on populations by various leftist / Stalinist governments.

So. What if Moura thinks he's protecting Brazil from the horrors of poverty and internicene violence witnessed recently in Venezuela? Or from the terminal collapse of democratic life suffered by Cubans?

Not so simple when the other side's sins are added into the equation.

 

[Aleks]

But we can't be inclusive by excluding. That is incoherent.

noun
noun: inclusivity

1. the practice or policy of providing equal access to opportunities and resources for people who might otherwise be excluded or marginalized, such as those having physical or mental disabilities or belonging to other minority groups.
   "you will need a thorough understanding of inclusivity and the needs of special education pupils"
   

Inclusivity has to do with things that you basically can not control.

Being an asshole doesn't make you a victim. I can't go to a wedding and expect to be liked if I start insulting the bride. However if I went and they kicked me out cause I had a disability then that's a problem.

You can't have awful beliefs then complain that people dislike you for them.

 

[rossdapep]

The only thing I'm comparing is the income. I earn the same as most civil servants do in Brazil. That's unadjusted. Because the cost of living is probably lower in Brazil, if I were earning the same as I do in Spain, about 6k real, I would have a much better quality of life. So I struggle to understand how Lucas' parents were in poverty considering one parent has certainly more purchasing power than I do.

Who said it's 6k?

Are you aware of how vast and diverse Brazil is?

Some civil servants will earn significantly less than that depending on where they live in the country.

I don't know about Lucas' parents situation but I've met people who are really struggling to get by despite having typical jobs. In a poorer area, they will REALLY struggle.

I guess Spain is similar to Portugal? I lived in Portugal for 2 years and met many Brazilians who left and felt the cost of living to be cheaper. It surprised me but some things in supermarkets are actually cheaper in Europe.

Brazil is not as cheap as you think and the public healthcare here is a big no no. Around 70% of the country is in poverty and that includes people who have normal jobs but live in poorer communities.

I apologise if I'm coming across strongly, it's just I'm a little fed up of people who've never been to Brazil claiming to know Everything

When I was back home in the UK the other week, my friend who has suddenly become very vocal about politics told me I had to vote against Bolsonaro because any choice other than him is best, despite knowing the square root of fuck all about Brazil or any of Bolsonaro's opposition. (I'm not voting by the way)

Maybe that has irked me and I'm projecting a bit.

 

[rossdapep]

Ok, so yeah, but...and bear with me here...all that is much less bad, and more transitory, than the shit that has been inflicted on populations by various leftist / Stalinist governments.

So. What if Moura thinks he's protecting Brazil from the horrors of poverty and internicene violence witnessed recently in Venezuela? Or from the terminal collapse of democratic life suffered by Cubans?

Not so simple when the other side's sins are added into the equation.

This is it. Bolsonaro isn't a good guy, his comments are shocking.

However, despite that he has done some good things (not many but I shared one before) and he's very strong about security, which is necessary in this country. The economy is good at the moment too.

So Lucas may be aware of these things and feel that for Brazil to prosper it needs a strong arm.

Brazil has many many problems, more than most but it's citizens leave in waves due to security. Isn't it fair to assume Lucas wants this fixing?

 

[C0YS]

But we can't be inclusive by excluding. That is incoherent.

I mean it can be a coherent position. I'm not for Lucas being kicked out of the club at all. And I don't think he's a fascist. But there is a paradox that if you are tolerant to intolerance you defacto promote and support intolerance. The paradox of tolerance is a thing you can look up yourself, but it's fundamentally how a lot of this happens.

Bolsonaro may well be tried for Crimes against humanity and when you have certain opinions that essentially are inciting violence it isn't 'cancel culture' to have repercussions for those view points.

If your viewpoint is to support genocide that normally constitute hate speech. Now, Lucas supports someone who if they were not an elected official and if they lived as a citizen of this country could easily fall foul of hate speech laws. Now Lucas hasn't said anything that constitutes hate speech. And I personally don't like the 'cancelling' of people for mistakes or hearsay that you often get online.

But it's a slippery slope to expect everything all view points to be included. Because it will inevitably lead to those viewpoints getting legitimacy and becoming more and more acceptable. Most societies for that reason do have limits. If I were to promote acts that are illegal or say things that are plainly discriminatory thats against the law.

We're you set those limits are very difficult and not clear cut at all, and in every society we should be empathetic and try to understand were people are coming from, even those who have done bad things or express discriminatory views but we shouldn't leave people to say and do what they want without question. Because if you read a history book you can see what that leaves to.

So yes, a inclusive society needs to exclude to some degree, it's a paradoxical situation but an inclusive society cannot fundamentally function without doing so.

 

[citizenG100]

noun
noun: inclusivity

1. the practice or policy of providing equal access to opportunities and resources for people who might otherwise be excluded or marginalized, such as those having physical or mental disabilities or belonging to other minority groups.
   "you will need a thorough understanding of inclusivity and the needs of special education pupils"

Inclusivity has to do with things that you basically can not control.

Being an asshole doesn't make you a victim. I can't go to a wedding and expect to be liked if I start insulting the bride. However if I went and they kicked me out cause I had a disability then that's a problem.

You can't have awful beliefs then complain that people dislike you for them.

My point wasn't meant to suggest that everyone can do what they like and never have to suffer any consequences. My point was intended to simply point out the absurdity of only claiming to be "inclusive" when in fact exclusion is also taking place. I believe that every organisation has to always include and exclude. It is inevitable.

I was really just trying to indicate that when people or parties or any organisation say it is "inclusive" they are almost always using that term in a cheap, shallow, and incomplete manner. Pure sloganeering in other words. But I guess a more honest "we are inclusive but also by necessity must exclude if you conflict with our core beliefs" doesn't have the same ring as a soundbite.

 

[C0YS]

Who said it's 6k?

Are you aware of how vast and diverse Brazil is?

Some civil servants will earn significantly less than that depending on where they live in the country.

I don't know about Lucas' parents situation but I've met people who are really struggling to get by despite having typical jobs. In a poorer area, they will REALLY struggle.

I guess Spain is similar to Portugal? I lived in Portugal for 2 years and met many Brazilians who left and felt the cost of living to be cheaper. It surprised me but some things in supermarkets are actually cheaper in Europe.

Brazil is not as cheap as you think and the public healthcare here is a big no no. Around 70% of the country is in poverty and that includes people who have normal jobs but live in poorer communities.

I apologise if I'm coming across strongly, it's just I'm a little fed up of people who've never been to Brazil claiming to know Everything

When I was back home in the UK the other week, my friend who has suddenly become very vocal about politics told me I had to vote against Bolsonaro because any choice other than him is best, despite knowing the square root of fuck all about Brazil or any of Bolsonaro's opposition. (I'm not voting by the way)

Maybe that has irked me and I'm projecting a bit.

Who said it's 6k? You can Google it. It starts at 4.5k and the average is at around 7k. I made an assumption but I took less than the average. You actually make a good point, where I live is only 5% more expensive than where Lucas' parents live. I think it's very important to be clear that people's idea of where poverty is is exactly dependent on what you believe is comfortable. Most people to some extent are struggling to get by in Europe, just look at the rate of private debts (my personal hate is when people think poverty isn't a major problem in Europe it is), and with my wage I get by, I even have fun, but I have no real savings and lot of the times I am counting pennies by the end of the month. But it's generally a comfortable life, so it depends where you draw that line. But someone with that job isn't poor in the way that richarlison was poor for instance. I would call it lower middle class.

I agree that Bolsonaro support isn't particularly weird and is very much comparable to figures like Trump and Boris Johnson. I also believe if you have money, like Lucas does, bolsonaro does present your interests. There is nothing odd or shocking about people supporting him and it's a symptom of bigger social problems.

But that doesn't mean people should get a free pass for it. Because as someone who studied social anthropology, the things I'm close to bolsonaro should be in prison. He is supporting the death and destruction of various different cultures, or very least promoting it, and most people in anthropology would say he is actively supporting genocide. So, I'm not going to be that sympathetic even if it doesn't concern people's day to day life.

As I say though, I don't think Lucas should be punished for this or anything, but it's fair game to criticize. I don't bring up my politics to my students but if I did I would fully expect to challenged for it, if they disagreed.

 

[Aleks]

but when those beliefs held by the people actively harm the people that are the most vulnerable in society I think it's justified no?

inclusive is a fine word if taken by it's definition and not twisted.
Anyway Lucas is not being excluded by anyone, his beliefs are being questioned and discussed. He hasn't lost his job or anything. He has had the freedom of speech to say whatever he wanted to without being arrested

Now some people may have been affected by his words and beliefs far more than others (especially lgbtq+ people) and honestly it's perfectly fine for them to feel this way as he is supporting someone who actively is harming them.

 

[citizenG100]

So yes, a inclusive society needs to exclude to some degree, it's a paradoxical situation but an inclusive society cannot fundamentally function without doing so.

Absolutely. But I fear that most western societies are shrinking the range of tolerated opinions at an alarming rate, especially in the last decade or so, and that if this trend continues it is not going to end well for any of us.