Player Watch: Nabil Bentaleb

[dcarney75]

He's young and shows every sign that he's going to become a very good player.

He didn't play particularly well yesterday, but after such a lengthy lay-off and sporadic selection that's hardly surprising.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Yet again after watching Bentaleb I'm left scratching my head as to what sort of player he is.

He was nominally our defensive midfielder yesterday, yet I'd say his defensive work is not good at all (although he was hung out to dry a bit in the second half). I don't think he has the positioning to play in that role and it cost us at times yesterday.

So if he isn't a defensive midfielder then that means we need to look at his contribution going forwards, and for me he was incredibly underwhelming there as well. He was trying to get the ball forwards, which was good, but far too often he was trying the wrong ball and when he tries to run with the ball he's all too easily dispossessed.

He's still very young and it's clear there is talent there, and having not played a lot of football this season maybe he's still trying to get up to speed, but for me he's now behind Dembele, Carroll and Mason so he's got a lot of work to do.

Behind Dembele, Carroll and Mason at what though ? and why ? What type of midfielder would you say Schniederlin is ? At Southampton he wasn't the pure destroyer, that was Wanyama, and he wasn't bombing in tot he box and scoring much or the playmaker type like Fabregas. I think if you watched Schniederlin 5 years ago, you'd be asking the same question.

I think it's about blend and balance.

I think our best two CM's defensively right now are Dier and Dembele. But does that make them the best blend and balance together? Not for me it doesn't.

Pochettino's philosophy, according to the man himself and those that have observed his methods, is about possession, speed of transition, press the opposition, win the ball quickly and get it forward quickly and vertically.

Dier can pass the ball with range, but only when given time and space, when he's under pressure he's a very risk averse passer of the ball. And he's not a lock picking passer either, there is very little incision. He's also not likely to drop a shoulder and go past anyone. But he is robust, positionally very restrained and disciplined. And he is often the instigator of the second half "shell" as he sinks deeper and deeper and stops wanting possession. So what do you want to balance that?

What I don't want is another very robust and tenacious player who plays with his head down a lot and is incredibly slow at releasing the ball from midfield and doesn't facilitate quick transition.

What I want is a player who'll show for the ball, keep it moving quickly and efficiently and forwards, getting it to the AM's and FB's quicker so they can attack the opposition before they are set.

Dembele is very robust, very tenacious. He'll see plenty of ball. He'll carry the ball. But he doesn't move it quickly, nobody moves the ball slower than he does, whether because he's dribbling (and that dribbling isn't always forwards either), slow to get his head up, or because he's also very risk averse. So pairing him with Dier doesn't create the best blend of skills, doesn't give us a player who'll move the ball quickly, forwards and aid quick transitional play.

That gives you a choice of Mason, Carroll and Bentaleb. I prefer the balance of a left/right player as LCM/RCM personally. IMO for the best balance. Bentaleb (using last years analysis) sees more ball than Carroll, moves it forwards more, yet still gives it away less and makes more tackles. So for me in a CM2 with Dier I'd take Bentaleb, because he balances off Dier's skills, will facilitate quicker transition, at less risk, more possession, less defensive compromise than Carroll.

If we were playing Dembele, I'd happily pair him with Mason for the same reasons - balance and blend of skills - with Winks as back up.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Behind Dembele, Carroll and Mason at what though ? and why ? What type of midfielder would you say Schniederlin is ? At Southampton he wasn't the pure destroyer, that was Wanyama, and he wasn't bombing in tot he box and scoring much or the playmaker type like Fabregas. I think if you watched Schniederlin 5 years ago, you'd be asking the same question.

I think it's about blend and balance.

I think our best two CM's defensively right now are Dier and Dembele. But does that make them the best blend and balance together? Not for me it doesn't.

Pochettino's philosophy, according to the man himself and those that have observed his methods, is about possession, speed of transition, press the opposition, win the ball quickly and get it forward quickly and vertically.

Dier can pass the ball with range, but only when given time and space, when he's under pressure he's a very risk averse passer of the ball. And he's not a lock picking passer either, there is very little incision. He's also not likely to drop a shoulder and go past anyone. But he is robust, positionally very restrained and disciplined. And he is often the instigator of the second half "shell" as he sinks deeper and deeper and stops wanting possession. So what do you want to balance that?

What I don't want is another very robust and tenacious player who plays with his head down a lot and is incredibly slow at releasing the ball from midfield and doesn't facilitate quick transition.

What I want is a player who'll show for the ball, keep it moving quickly and efficiently and forwards, getting it to the AM's and FB's quicker so they can attack the opposition before they are set.

Dembele is very robust, very tenacious. He'll see plenty of ball. He'll carry the ball. But he doesn't move it quickly, nobody moves the ball slower than he does, whether because he's dribbling (and that dribbling isn't always forwards either), slow to get his head up, or because he's also very risk averse. So pairing him with Dier doesn't create the best blend of skills, doesn't give us a player who'll move the ball quickly, forwards and aid quick transitional play.

That gives you a choice of Mason, Carroll and Bentaleb. I prefer the balance of a left/right player as LCM/RCM personally. IMO for the best balance. Bentaleb (using last years analysis) sees more ball than Carroll, moves it forwards more, yet still gives it away less and makes more tackles. So for me in a CM2 with Dier I'd take Bentaleb, because he balances off Dier's skills, will facilitate quicker transition, at less risk, more possession, less defensive compromise than Carroll.

If we were playing Dembele, I'd happily pair him with Mason for the same reasons - balance and blend of skills - with Winks as back up.

I'm not sure I buy into this need for either of our central midfielders to be moving the ball forwards quickly. It's obviously good to have that option in the squad, but the pure facts are that with Dier and Dembele playing the majority of games this season we've scored the second most in the league and conceded the least. It's fairly clear that's the best combo and I don't think we've looked as strong when that hasn't been the combination (although Mason was doing well earlier in the year).

I just think that defensively, Bentaleb is behind Dier and Dembele.

In terms of carrying the ball he's behind Dembele and Mason.

And in terms of passing I think based on recent performances he's behind Carroll, and possibly Mason as well. It's all very well showing for the ball and moving it quickly, but if you move it to the wrong player or give it away that's now use at all, and I think we see more of that from Bentaleb than is ideal at the moment.

I do normally agree with you BC but on this one I cannot honestly see how anyone would think Bentaleb should be in our starting XI. As I've said elsewhere I'm not writing him off because he is young and we have a great coach, and it's clear that there is talent there, but at the moment I don't see any opposition where I'd think Bentaleb is the right answer.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Perhaps you missed the league game against Palace recently where we actually did lose control of the game for most of the second half and that was with a combination of Dier/Dembele/Alli until the 88th minute.

We made 150 more passes yesterday, compared to the league game (which was won by two worldies after they'd spurned various chances to score) suggesting we had way more control of the game and allowed them fewer chances, despite their team being stronger yesterday.

Sorry BC, but that 2nd half yesterday was absolute calamitous after the first 10-15 minutes- one of our worst halves this season. I don't care what stats are used, anyone can see we had no control over the second half.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Sorry BC, but that 2nd half yesterday was absolute calamitous after the first 10-15 minutes- one of our worst halves this season. I don't care what stats are used, anyone can see we had no control over the second half.

It definitely wasn't worse that the second halves away to Palace, Watford, ManC & Fiorentina.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

It definitely wasn't worse that the second halves away to Palace, Watford, ManC & Fiorentina.

Defensively we were more stable I suppose (still not great) but we couldn't mount an attack after the initial start to the 2nd half, and the passing was appalling throughout the half.

 

[jurgen]

It definitely wasn't worse that the second halves away to Palace, Watford, ManC & Fiorentina.

Away away away away.

Yesterday was at home. And we didn't match up physically like we have been of late and paid for it. I know you drank the Rodgers kool aid about how the game should be played, and enjoy being contrarian but it does take some big old balls to use our worst performance in a long time to call for a change in a team that just went on our best winning run for ages...

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Away away away away.

Yesterday was at home. And we didn't match up physically like we have been of late and paid for it. I know you drank the Rodgers kool aid about how the game should be played, and enjoy being contrarian but it does take some big old balls to use our worst performance in a long time to call for a change in a team that just went on our best winning run for ages...

It's not contrary to think the 20yo midfielder who managed a more consistent season and performed as well in some respects as some of the best midfielders in this league in his first full season may be a viable alternative - in cm - to Dembele.

I think if we didn't all have the memories of goldfish we might think it through, think what the consistent qualities were that he displayed last year - as a 20yo in his first full season - the qualities that made him preferred to all the more experienced options, and the enormous potential he represents.

It's not controversial to think just because we are doing well, that we can't do better.

Personally I like Dembele as a AM, and I think the best performances I've seen under Pochettino were still the ones against Arsenal and Liverpool last season, with Bentaleb in CM and Dembele as an AM.

It's not controversial to think that if we played as well as that, with the added attributes of this season (better defenders, a disciplined CM next to Bentaleb, harder working and more creative forwards) we could be even better than we are now.

Not everything was broke last season and everything perfect this.

 

[Paq]

Bentaleb has a lot of qualities and he'll play at a high level in the game. It's up to us to try and help him develop and help the team. He's not getting it quite right at the moment and his best position is arguable, but nor is he the huge hindrance some seem to suggest. I hope we persevere as he could be huge for this team in the future.

 

[glospur]

Perhaps you missed the league game against Palace recently where we actually did lose control of the game for most of the second half and that was with a combination of Dier/Dembele/Alli until the 88th minute.

We made 150 more passes yesterday, compared to the league game (which was won by two worldies after they'd spurned various chances to score) suggesting we had way more control of the game and allowed them fewer chances, despite their team being stronger yesterday.

See B-C this is the problem with some of your analysis. You're so focused on passing percentages and how well we control the game in midfield, yet the only thing that matters is results. Although we may have made more passes in the Cup than in the League game at Palace and we may have had more control in midfield, we lost one game and won the other, and the game we won wasn't the game where we made more passes. Regardless of the manner of the goals, it's the result that counts.

 

[DaSpurs]

See B-C this is the problem with some of your analysis. You're so focused on passing percentages and how well we control the game in midfield, yet the only thing that matters is results. Although we may have made more passes in the Cup than in the League game at Palace and we may have had more control in midfield, we lost one game and won the other, and the game we won wasn't the game where we made more passes. Regardless of the manner of the goals, it's the result that counts.

That's not entirely true, and it depends on the point being made. The discussion here is about midfield performance (can substitute with any specific position), which simply does not always correlate proportionally with team results. For instance, had Alli not nailed that stunner in that match against Palace, I suspect that that general team performance that day would be another one coming under the negative analytical microscope as this past weekend's match now currently is.

Sometimes strong midfield performances contribute to favorable results, sometimes the opposite happens. If all patterns and trends were dictated by the final result of each match, what would even be the point of any of us being here to discuss anything?

 

[BringBack_leGin]

The discussion about Bentaleb is almost identical to the discussions about Jenas some 6/7 years ago. The only conclusion is that some people look for berry different qualities in a midfield than others.

I think @talkshowhost86 hit the nail on the head though. Second best attack, best defence, that doesn't happen unless you're playing your strongest and best midfield.

 

[glospur]

That's not entirely true, and it depends on the point being made. The discussion here is about midfield performance (can substitute with any specific position), which simply does not always correlate proportionally with team results. For instance, had Alli not nailed that stunner in that match against Palace, I suspect that that general team performance that day would be another one coming under the negative analytical microscope as this past weekend's match now currently is.

Sometimes strong midfield performances contribute to favorable results, sometimes the opposite happens. If all patterns and trends were dictated by the final result of each match, what would even be the point of any of us being here to discuss anything?

But the fact is that he did, because he's a match winner despite occasionally not registering high passing percentage or drifting out of the game. The calls during that game were to bring another midfielder, such as Bentaleb, on for him to gain some control of the ball yet the game on the weekend showed that controlling the game doesn't always make for a favorable result. The post I quoted advocated controlling the game with more passes to restrict chances created by the opposition, a position that is permanently adopted by that poster, yet the game on the weekend showed that control can sometimes not make one iota of difference and a myopic focus on control of the match can often lead to an ignorance of other aspects of the game or players that lead to positive results (see Louis van Gaal and Manchester United this season).

 

[Japhet]

Perhaps you missed the league game against Palace recently where we actually did lose control of the game for most of the second half and that was with a combination of Dier/Dembele/Alli until the 88th minute.

We made 150 more passes yesterday, compared to the league game (which was won by two worldies after they'd spurned various chances to score) suggesting we had way more control of the game and allowed them fewer chances, despite their team being stronger yesterday.

That reminds me of the performances under AVB where we passed the thing around ad nauseam and had no cutting edge. Whatever you think of the stats, we lost the game which is surely an indictment of the key players on the pitch. As I said in the Dembele thread, he and Eriksen are the only 2 players we have who force the opposition to come out and try to take the ball off them which creates the space for others.

 

[southlondonyiddo]

I remember going to Lisbon and watching Nabil cover every blade of grass that night. He's a top player who could become fantastic. He's had a few injuries and a bit of a stutter to his career. If he gets back on track the boys going to be fantastic

A good time to step up again is tomorrow night and he's more than capable of doing it

 

[spurs9]

Behind Dembele, Carroll and Mason at what though ? and why ? What type of midfielder would you say Schniederlin is ? At Southampton he wasn't the pure destroyer, that was Wanyama, and he wasn't bombing in tot he box and scoring much or the playmaker type like Fabregas. I think if you watched Schniederlin 5 years ago, you'd be asking the same question.

I think it's about blend and balance.

I think our best two CM's defensively right now are Dier and Dembele. But does that make them the best blend and balance together? Not for me it doesn't.

Pochettino's philosophy, according to the man himself and those that have observed his methods, is about possession, speed of transition, press the opposition, win the ball quickly and get it forward quickly and vertically.

Dier can pass the ball with range, but only when given time and space, when he's under pressure he's a very risk averse passer of the ball. And he's not a lock picking passer either, there is very little incision. He's also not likely to drop a shoulder and go past anyone. But he is robust, positionally very restrained and disciplined. And he is often the instigator of the second half "shell" as he sinks deeper and deeper and stops wanting possession. So what do you want to balance that?

What I don't want is another very robust and tenacious player who plays with his head down a lot and is incredibly slow at releasing the ball from midfield and doesn't facilitate quick transition.

What I want is a player who'll show for the ball, keep it moving quickly and efficiently and forwards, getting it to the AM's and FB's quicker so they can attack the opposition before they are set.

Dembele is very robust, very tenacious. He'll see plenty of ball. He'll carry the ball. But he doesn't move it quickly, nobody moves the ball slower than he does, whether because he's dribbling (and that dribbling isn't always forwards either), slow to get his head up, or because he's also very risk averse. So pairing him with Dier doesn't create the best blend of skills, doesn't give us a player who'll move the ball quickly, forwards and aid quick transitional play.

That gives you a choice of Mason, Carroll and Bentaleb. I prefer the balance of a left/right player as LCM/RCM personally. IMO for the best balance. Bentaleb (using last years analysis) sees more ball than Carroll, moves it forwards more, yet still gives it away less and makes more tackles. So for me in a CM2 with Dier I'd take Bentaleb, because he balances off Dier's skills, will facilitate quicker transition, at less risk, more possession, less defensive compromise than Carroll.

If we were playing Dembele, I'd happily pair him with Mason for the same reasons - balance and blend of skills - with Winks as back up.

Don't take this as a knock to Bentaleb, as I think he will have a bright future (unless the ITK about his attitude is true) but, whilst Bentaleb may have seen more of the ball last season, Carroll does more with it, as he has created more chances. Carroll has also made less errors and if you compare stats this season, Carroll beats Bentaleb in almost every category.

Also, just on the "see's more of the ball" subject, every CM that we have had this season, that also played last season, has seen less of the ball and the most a CM has passed the ball on average is 55 per game, and Carroll's stat is 53 (Bentaleb 48) and with our increase in goals this season (1.8 pg vs 1.53 PG), it would suggest we doing better with possession.

 

[EJWTartanSpur]

This is precisely the type of opportunity Bentaleb needs ( Dembele injury ) and is where I think we gain from having him and Mason relatively fresh at this point in the season. Personally, I want to see Nabil get plenty of game time in the next 3 matches, sometimes you just need to stick with a player and get him through some initial rustiness, in order to get him back to his best. Full starts against Fiorentina and Swansea at home would go someway to achieving that.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Don't take this as a knock to Bentaleb, as I think he will have a bright future (unless the ITK about his attitude is true) but, whilst Bentaleb may have seen more of the ball last season, Carroll does more with it, as he has created more chances. Carroll has also made less errors and if you compare stats this season, Carroll beats Bentaleb in almost every category.

Also, just on the "see's more of the ball" subject, every CM that we have had this season, that also played last season, has seen less of the ball and the most a CM has passed the ball on average is 55 per game, and Carroll's stat is 53 (Bentaleb 48) and with our increase in goals this season (1.8 pg vs 1.53 PG), it would suggest we doing better with possession.

Likewise, I like Carroll, I don't want to make out the kid doesn't have good qualities, because I've always said he does, but I still think that in the right circumstances (partner, system, specific AM's etc) Bentaleb offers the more viable "all round" option. Where Carroll probably excels in the creative stakes I think every other way Bentaleb does, and I think given time next to Dier , with less responsibility we would see a more creative bentaleb too, as we often did in development games.

With regards to creativity (key passes, chances created) lets bare in mind that some of Carroll's 437 minutes has been played as an AM. Bentaleb has never played as an AM.

With regards to "seeing more ball" that's if you compare this season, so far Bentaleb has only played 180 minutes and Carroll has played 437, hardly worth using in either's case but especially Bentaleb's paltry case. Bentaleb played 2194 last, a far more valid sample, and during that phase he made more passes per 90 (64) than Carroll has this season (53), more forward passes (39 to 35) and gives it away less (87% to 82%). He also wins more tackles.

That's not to say I don't think Carroll is the more creative player, I do think he is more creatively minded, but there is more to the all round package than just this, after all, I think Carroll is probably more creatively biased than someone like Schniederlin too but I still would prefer Schniederlin, because in a Cm2, in our system, with 4 forwards ahead of the CM2, I think it's about other things as well. Carroll lacks Bentaleb's presence, Carroll has rarely effected EPL games the way Bentaleb did consistently last season. I've watched Carroll many, many times and I think he really struggles at times to impose himself and effect games when played in a CM2 in the EPL. Last season there were rarely ever games where Bentaleb wasn't visible.

Playing next to the disciplined Dier I think you can make valid cases for both players, depending on the game, opposition and circumstances - and I have made cases for both at different times - I just think with our system, where we are needing to balance defensive and offensive qualities in Bentaleb you have the more rounded solution, a player who is more likely to impose himself on a game. Over an extended period he will see more ball, give it away less, whilst still playing it vertically as much or more, he will win it more. I think next to Dier he'd also be able to be more creative.

I'd alsotake Carroll over Dembele next to Dier some weeks too, as I really think we need a player who moves the ball quickly and vertically next to him (Dier), we need to transition quicker than we do at times.

 

[spurs9]

Likewise, I like Carroll, I don't want to make out the kid doesn't have good qualities, because I've always said he does, but I still think that in the right circumstances (partner, system, specific AM's etc) Bentaleb offers the more viable "all round" option. Where Carroll probably excels in the creative stakes I think every other way Bentaleb does, and I think given time next to Dier , with less responsibility we would see a more creative bentaleb too, as we often did in development games.

With regards to creativity (key passes, chances created) lets bare in mind that some of Carroll's 437 minutes has been played as an AM. Bentaleb has never played as an AM.

With regards to "seeing more ball" that's if you compare this season, so far Bentaleb has only played 180 minutes and Carroll has played 437, hardly worth using in either's case but especially Bentaleb's paltry case. Bentaleb played 2194 last, a far more valid sample, and during that phase he made more passes per 90 (64) than Carroll has this season (53), more forward passes (39 to 35) and gives it away less (87% to 82%). He also wins more tackles.

That's not to say I don't think Carroll is the more creative player, I do think he is more creatively minded, but there is more to the all round package than just this, after all, I think Carroll is probably more creatively biased than someone like Schniederlin too but I still would prefer Schniederlin, because in a Cm2, in our system, with 4 forwards ahead of the CM2, I think it's about other things as well. Carroll lacks Bentaleb's presence, Carroll has rarely effected EPL games the way Bentaleb did consistently last season. I've watched Carroll many, many times and I think he really struggles at times to impose himself and effect games when played in a CM2 in the EPL. Last season there were rarely ever games where Bentaleb wasn't visible.

Playing next to the disciplined Dier I think you can make valid cases for both players, depending on the game, opposition and circumstances - and I have made cases for both at different times - I just think with our system, where we are needing to balance defensive and offensive qualities in Bentaleb you have the more rounded solution, a player who is more likely to impose himself on a game. Over an extended period he will see more ball, give it away less, whilst still playing it vertically as much or more, he will win it more. I think next to Dier he'd also be able to be more creative.

I'd alsotake Carroll over Dembele next to Dier some weeks too, as I really think we need a player who moves the ball quickly and vertically next to him (Dier), we need to transition quicker than we do at times.

I agree a lot with what you are saying but just on the "seeing more ball" part, what I actually meant was that all CMs numbers have dropped form last season (e.g last season Dembele had 64 passes pg, the same as Bentaleb, this season MD has 55). Also, Carroll's mins this season are closer to Bentalab's this season than Bentaleb's last season, so I don't think it is fair to compare that stats of a 437 min season to a 2194 min season (1757 min difference), and a 180 min season (257 min difference) would be "more fair" but still far from ideal.

 

[Phil-spur99]

Not convinced by Nabil. I think his injuries have been unfortunate but in his absence the team has moved on particularly in terms of work rate; I don't think Nabil stands out in that regard. He also always seems to play one suicidal pass a game.