Player Watch: Victor Wanyama

[shelfboy68]

My general rule is that if lolly pop lady thinks he is a bad signing he will probably be a good one.

Really dont know why anyone is doubting this signing as it smacks of common sense, which looking at this thread seems to have gone out the window.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

Really dont know why anyone is doubting this signing as it smacks of common sense, which looking at this thread seems to have gone out the window.

I think there is only one person against this signing and even he now probably acknowledges he is wrong but simply won't say so.....

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

When we talk about our youth players; how many have we seen up against top class PL opposition? Say against a team of top four type players?

When Poch and the team assess whether a player is ready they get them to train with the first team squad, in that way they get to see how they perform against much better players, and importantly teams, than they face week in, week out in the youth leagues. On the basis of how they do in this environment they either get promoted to the first team squad or not.

When a player like Lesniak doesn't get promoted we can choose to believe it is because he's just been ignored because the coaches are blind to his qualities or stuck in a conservative rut, or we can choose to believe it's because the coaches assess that he's not ready having seen him up close.

If we think the former, as I did with Redknapp, we have to consider the coach's track record of promoting youth, of going with the callow over the million dollar signing.

It seems to me that last season we had the youngest squad in the PL by some margin. We probably had all ten of the ten youngest matchday 11s to play last season. We saw him unafraid to leave experience on the bench in favour of the younger guy. We saw him give players a try based on what they were doing in training rather than reputation, and so we got players like Dier and Deli Alli performing in the match-day squad. Then we can look at what he did at Southampton, how many youth players he promoted to his squad, and how they did once they got in. And also his record at Espanyol. Poch is a coach who is not afraid to give youth a go if he thinks they're up to it.

If the coach didn't have such a track record then by all means tear your hair out.

What I really don't think we should be doing however is having a dogmatic opinion of youth players playing in youth teams, based on what we've seen in the odd streamed match against other youth teams. We should surely admit the limit of the conclusions we're able to draw from such scanty evidence and decide to trust the coaches.

I agree with a lot of this. There is a significant jump from youth football to the first team. I remember when Kane first started to make appearances for us he was clearly trying to sheild and protect the ball like he had been coached to but just kept getting knocked off it constantly. To the point where it was so infuriating that I thought if he was ever going to make it as a professional footballer it was an area of his game that needed significant work on. Luckily through his own sheer determination and good advice from coaches his strength on the ball has improved immeasurably and in fact is now one of his major attributes. This improvement, did however, take around 3 seasons in total. He was never ready to be second or even third choice striker before he burst onto the scene. The club had to be patient with him and stick with him through his bulking out period.

I find it a similar situation with Onomah. In the youth teams his upper body strength and dribbling are two of his major attributes but in the first team he is already being criticised for getting dispossessed to easily. Again, in this instance, I would say he is clearly not ready. I think the coaches will be working to improve this all aspects of his game to the point where he is even ready to challenge for a first team spot or be moved on.

We need to trust that the coaches at the club know when a player is ready to challenge effectively for the first team. To develop the parts of the players games that give them the best chance of succeeding in first team football. Just because a player shines in the youth team doesn't make it foregone conclusion that they will ever transfer that ability to the first team.

 

[gloriousbillynich]

Heaven forbid we should form any opinion of a footballer based on watching the footballer play football.

I may be a little wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure Poch hasn't actually given many debut minutes to youth spurs. With the possible exception of a 23yo Mason he's given about 22 EPL minutes to debut players with us I believe in two years. That's not so much "trusting youth" it's trusting young players that have been given an opportunity elsewhere or by others first.

I like him very much as a coach, and trusting young players, even if they aren't "ours" is still commendable, but not everything he does is right and his judgement isn't unquestionable in any/every aspect.

His judgement is not unquestionable, of course it's not. No ones is.

However, that doesn't mean that he's not right. Question him and criticise him all you want. Just don't expect others to agree with you. And I don't.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I agree with a lot of this. There is a significant jump from youth football to the first team. I remember when Kane first started to make appearances for us he was clearly trying to sheild and protect the ball like he had been coached to but just kept getting knocked off it constantly. To the point where it was so infuriating that I thought if he was ever going to make it as a professional footballer it was an area of his game that needed significant work on. Luckily through his own sheer determination and good advice from coaches his strength on the ball has improved immeasurably and in fact is now one of his major attributes. This improvement, did however, take around 3 seasons in total. He was never ready to be second or even third choice striker before he burst onto the scene. The club had to be patient with him and stick with him through his bulking out period.

I find it a similar situation with Onomah. In the youth teams his upper body strength and dribbling are two of his major attributes but in the first team he is already being criticised for getting dispossessed to easily. Again, in this instance, I would say he is clearly not ready. I think the coaches will be working to improve this all aspects of his game to the point where he is even ready to challenge for a first team spot or be moved on.

We need to trust that the coaches at the club know when a player is ready to challenge effectively for the first team. To develop the parts of the players games that give them the best chance of succeeding in first team football. Just because a player shines in the youth team doesn't make it foregone conclusion that they will ever transfer that ability to the first team.

This really isn't the problem I'm alluding to. I understand integration is rarely an instantaneous process. Kane only got his chance because the two first team choices ahead of him drastically - and I mean drastically - under performed. How is KWP - who is by everyone who's watched him's opinion an outstanding and rare talent in a very caught after position - going to ever even get ad hoc minutes with Walker and Trippier and then we purchase Yedlin too ? Adam Smith is proving that he is good enough to play EPL football, but he had to leave for exactly the same reason, we purchased not one, but two young FB's (the Kyles) as 2nd and 3rd choice. We purchased two AM's last season which resulted in Pritchard being sent on a ludicrous loan to sit on the bench of a team where he was ill suited. Are you seriously telling me that you believe Njie was ready to offer more to our first team than Pritchard had proved he was ? I could not disagree more.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think there is only one person against this signing and even he now probably acknowledges he is wrong but simply won't say so.....

If he's still against the signing, why would he admit he's wrong?

I haven't changed my mind on this signing at all. I think Wanyama is a very one dimensional footballer who will at best replicate a role, albeit competently, we already have being carried out here and would rather our 11m was spent elsewhere on a CM with decent defensive qualities but with more footballing ones, who might give us something we don't already have for the right side of the midfield pair.

 

[Mr Pink]

I have said this for awhile. I don't think people appreciate how much emphasis Poch puts on training - and he sees it all. He sees the quality, the mentality, and the effort that goes into each player's training. Its no secret that the very first inkling we had that Alli might be a pretty good player for us was the ITK talking about Alli's training performances.

I trust that Poch, and the committee, have a depth chart that includes every player in the first team, under-21s, and academy lads. They know where there are gaps, and who is close to breaking into the first team. I think they will buy where we don't have anyone ready to step up, and allow players who are close an opportunity to step-up.

I think one of the things that gets overlooked by many is how much harder it is to break into a top-4 squad, than it is to break into a mid-table squad. I think the legitimate expectations for this club for the foreseeable future is to be a top-4 club, competing for trophies. The quality of player required to maintain that level is high - and I don't expect Poch to lower that threshold simply for the sake of giving players a debut. He will continue to work with those players and push them towards that level - but the path to the first team is difficult.

I do think we need to be better about loans - given the importance that will play on the players development. But, simply giving them games before they are ready does a disservice to the player and the squad.

Excellent post mate.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I'm not sure what prompted this bout of introspection and pseudo humility but it's long overdue. If you can just carry it on then SC will be all the better for it.

As to the substance of what you say above I don't know how you conclude just because we are signing a Sputhampton player that Poch is in charge of transfers, it seems pretty clear that primary responsibility for recruitment lies with Mitchell but Poch and others are involved. Unlike Baldini, Mitchell seems to be able to deliver Poch players who both fit his playing system and the personal characteristics he requires. I'd say the system is working just fine, far better than any other DoF / coach combo we've had, albeit we've only had 1 window to see it in operation.

If you'd read what I said you'd understand the point I made (almost first line in fact) was how much do we blame or credit Pochettino for signings, as he's now just part of a committee process, hence my comment about possibly being a little harsh.

Don't you think it's a little early to claiming Mitchell et al as doing a better job than previous DOF's on which this club have progressed beyond recognition, that have found brought in the likes Carrick, Modric, Bale, Berbatov, Eriksen, and a plethora of decent foot soldiers who have aided that progression? Lets see how Son, Njie and Wimmer are doing in a year or two shall we?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

This is absolutely not true. Kane started in the Europa League from the qualification round, Pochettino clearly planned to give Kane a chance to prove himself in that competition regardless of any other striker at the club.

Kane got his chance before Pochettino even arrived here.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

If he's still against the signing, why would he admit he's wrong?

I haven't changed my mind on this signing at all. I think Wanyama is a very one dimensional footballer who will at best replicate a role, albeit competently, we already have being carried out here and would rather our 11m was spent elsewhere on a CM with decent defensive qualities but with more footballing ones, who might give us something we don't already have for the right side of the midfield pair.

ok let's keep this going, for 11m who would you buy ?

I'd prefer Kondogbia or Carvalho but both would cost 2-3x as much. I genuinely think at 11m Wanyama is great value.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

If you'd read what I said you'd understand the point I made (almost first line in fact) was how much do we blame or credit Pochettino for signings, as he's now just part of a committee process, hence my comment about possibly being a little harsh.

Don't you think it's a little early to claiming Mitchell et al as doing a better job than previous DOF's on which this club have progressed beyond recognition, that have found brought in the likes Carrick, Modric, Bale, Berbatov, Eriksen, and a plethora of decent foot soldiers who have aided that progression? Lets see how Son, Njie and Wimmer are doing in a year or two shall we?

If every signing Mitchell makes from now until he leaves the club is a dog he would still be a better DoF than either Comolli or Baldini both of whom were elaborate frauds IMHO.

For the record though I didn't say he was the best DoF just that we now have the best combo of DoF and coach because they are in sync which we haven't had since the short period of Arnesen and Jol.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

ok let's keep this going, for 11m who would you buy ?

I'd prefer Kondogbia or Carvalho but both would cost 2-3x as much. I genuinely think at 11m Wanyama is great value.

This is my point, surely. Haven't we hired Mitchell and a team of expert scouts and analysts to unearth players that aren't on Sky Super Sunday every week?

Or lets spend a little more and buy a player who offers something we don't have or a clear upgrade on what we do, maybe like Tolisso ?

Or if neither of those are possible, and we do have a player who plays a similar remit in the U21's lets give him those few stand-in minutes, domestic cup games and learn if he will be good enough for the longer term.

I mean, it's not as if Mason is suddenly totally shit either is it ? Could Poch not teach him a bit of positional discipline ?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

If every signing Mitchell makes from now until he leaves the club is a dog he would still be a better DoF than either Comolli or Baldini both of whom were elaborate frauds IMHO.

For the record though I didn't say he was the best DoF just that we now have the best combo of DoF and coach because they are in sync which we haven't had since the short period of Arnesen and Jol.

And I am saying I will reserve judgement because so far I don't think Njie (10m), Son (22m) have come close to proving good value and Wimmer was good value but I'm not sure I'd want him as first choice forever, certainly not ahead of Vertonghen.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Lets take this elsewhere. I'm just repeating my views, which haven't changed re Wanyama or youth integration in general.

 

[stevenurse]

If he's still against the signing, why would he admit he's wrong?

I haven't changed my mind on this signing at all. I think Wanyama is a very one dimensional footballer who will at best replicate a role, albeit competently, we already have being carried out here and would rather our 11m was spent elsewhere on a CM with decent defensive qualities but with more footballing ones, who might give us something we don't already have for the right side of the midfield pair.

Would that not then stifle the progress of Bentaleb?

midfield options of Wanyama, Dier, Dembele and Bentaleb with Eriksen and Alli able to drop deeper if required is ok with me.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

So now you're just confusing me. If you're on about under Sherwood, Adebayor was definitely not underperforming under him. I thought the whole point of this was talking about the opportunities Pochettino is giving youth, both strikers massively underperforming certainly sounds more like you were talking about the start of 14/15 than 13/14.

In terms of Pochettino it took the two strikers ahead of him to under perform before he got a chance in meaningful games (pretty sure he didn't start league games until November), but he'd already played a fair bit of football for us before then.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Would that not then stifle the progress of Bentaleb?

midfield options of Wanyama, Dier, Dembele and Bentaleb with Eriksen and Alli able to drop deeper if required is ok with me.

Tolisso is more right sided.

 

[spurs9]

Tolisso is more right sided.

No he isn't, Tolisso plays LCM with usually Ferri (sometimes Grenier) playing RCM and Ganalons behind in DM.

 

[double0]

We need to do a Barcelona and insert buyback clauses on development players that might have to be sold.

 

[SargeantMeatCurtains]

I really, really despise people who pretend to know more about football than they actually do.