Player Watch: Victor Wanyama

[DCSPUR]

What bothers me about that article is a few points such as this.

"Wanyama is not quite as technically accomplished as Dier, and his passing is not always as quick and incisive, It can slow Spurs down on occasions, but the differences are subtle."

So he isn't as technically accomplished as him and his passing isn't always as quick and incisive (two very important traits in this side and league in general) and it can slow us down but the differences are subtle? I would say that's anything but subtle.

"In fact, the stats show Wanyama rarely wastes a pass. His success rate of 87.8 per cent is only bettered by Mousa Dembele and Harry Winks at Spurs, and it also compares favourably to Dier's 83.3 per cent success rate last season. He may not be quite as adventurous - he certainly makes fewer long passes - but his distribution is generally reliable."

What those stats fail to show is the majority of Wanyama's passes are sidewards and backwards, not difficult to rarely waste a pass when they are all safe passes is it?

The comparison between him and Dier and their pass success rate is void because Dier makes more risky passes, hence why he is a better fit for our creativity going forward.

We miss that adventure from midfield in my opinion and I personally feel Dier is a better overall player than Wanyama but that's just personal opinion, I think Wanyama is a good player but he isn't as good as Dier as a holding mid and he isn't as disciplined.

Of course people will disagree and that's fine, I just wish Poch would rotate them both for different games, they have different skills sets and against the tougher sides like Chelsea, United, City I think Dier would be better suited personally, I don't think it's any shock that we have a worse record so far against the teams above us than last year.

as i mentioned on an earlier thread - Victor has been preferred to Dier in one game where Dier was fully fit, available to play and not deputizing for Toby or in the Poch back 3 strategy. That was the Utd game and could well be due to the comments made by Dier about Herrera
PS am a massive Dier fan and want him at DM in a straight choice but he has had to play for the team this season and is happy to do so

 

[theShiznit]

What bothers me about that article is a few points such as this.

"Wanyama is not quite as technically accomplished as Dier, and his passing is not always as quick and incisive, It can slow Spurs down on occasions, but the differences are subtle."

So he isn't as technically accomplished as him and his passing isn't always as quick and incisive (two very important traits in this side and league in general) and it can slow us down but the differences are subtle? I would say that's anything but subtle.

"In fact, the stats show Wanyama rarely wastes a pass. His success rate of 87.8 per cent is only bettered by Mousa Dembele and Harry Winks at Spurs, and it also compares favourably to Dier's 83.3 per cent success rate last season. He may not be quite as adventurous - he certainly makes fewer long passes - but his distribution is generally reliable."

What those stats fail to show is the majority of Wanyama's passes are sidewards and backwards, not difficult to rarely waste a pass when they are all safe passes is it?

The comparison between him and Dier and their pass success rate is void because Dier makes more risky passes, hence why he is a better fit for our creativity going forward.

We miss that adventure from midfield in my opinion and I personally feel Dier is a better overall player than Wanyama but that's just personal opinion, I think Wanyama is a good player but he isn't as good as Dier as a holding mid and he isn't as disciplined.

Of course people will disagree and that's fine, I just wish Poch would rotate them both for different games, they have different skills sets and against the tougher sides like Chelsea, United, City I think Dier would be better suited personally, I don't think it's any shock that we have a worse record so far against the teams above us than last year.

Was gonna say something along those lines, but why bother, people can laud the stats of one, who rarely (if ever) passes over 20 ft and above knee high. And beat someone else that actually tries the hard passes because they give the ball away too often, you can't make it up, perhaps people would be happy with a team of safe, way your facing passers...

In fact, I'll go so far to say, with those minutes and appearance stats, his passing stats should be better/higher for what he does with the ball (whether due to instruction or his own limits) and when coupled with Dembele it just magnifies their collective lack of anything resembling a pass between the lines or in behind, if it ain't to feet they don't wanna know. Too many touches to do too little, you can't have two CM's both giving that.

Not saying Dier is necessarily the answer either, but he certainly uses the ball quicker than both, and his range of passing overshadows both (combined)

 

[Hazardousman]

Was gonna say something along those lines, but why bother, people can laud the stats of one, who rarely (if ever) passes over 20 ft and above knee high. And beat someone else that actually tries the hard passes because they give the ball away too often, you can't make it up, perhaps people would be happy with a team of safe, way your facing passers...

In fact, I'll go so far to say, with those minutes and appearance stats, his passing stats should be better/higher for what he does with the ball (whether due to instruction or his own limits) and when coupled with Dembele it just magnifies their collective lack of anything resembling a pass between the lines or in behind, if it ain't to feet they don't wanna know. Too many touches to do too little, you can't have two CM's both giving that.

Not saying Dier is necessarily the answer either, but he certainly uses the ball quicker than both, and his range of passing overshadows both (combined)

100% agree with you mate, Wanyama seems untouchable in terms of criticism and undroppable from Poch, he leaves huge holes in our midfield which other players are forced to track back and fill which then harms us going forward and he is too risk averse for me.

But you know, he has nice passing stats irrespective of context so that's all that matters.

 

[Hazardousman]

as i mentioned on an earlier thread - Victor has been preferred to Dier in one game where Dier was fully fit, available to play and not deputizing for Toby or in the Poch back 3 strategy. That was the Utd game and could well be due to the comments made by Dier about Herrera
PS am a massive Dier fan and want him at DM in a straight choice but he has had to play for the team this season and is happy to do so

Well we shall see in the game against Southampton who starts, I can almost bet my life on Dier being on the bench if it is a choice between him or Wanyama playing, Wanyama is one of Poch's favourites.

Also you make a good point, it was the United game and during that game we were overrun in midfield and Wanyama was way off the pace, undisciplined and leaving huge gaps in midfield for them to exploit.

 

[mckenz]

Victors away for the ACN?

 

[Shadydan]

Victors away for the ACN?

Kenya didn't qualify.

 

[mckenz]

Kenya didn't qualify.

cheers... bit out of touch

 

[dudu]

Was gonna say something along those lines, but why bother, people can laud the stats of one, who rarely (if ever) passes over 20 ft and above knee high. And beat someone else that actually tries the hard passes because they give the ball away too often, you can't make it up, perhaps people would be happy with a team of safe, way your facing passers...

In fact, I'll go so far to say, with those minutes and appearance stats, his passing stats should be better/higher for what he does with the ball (whether due to instruction or his own limits) and when coupled with Dembele it just magnifies their collective lack of anything resembling a pass between the lines or in behind, if it ain't to feet they don't wanna know. Too many touches to do too little, you can't have two CM's both giving that.

Not saying Dier is necessarily the answer either, but he certainly uses the ball quicker than both, and his range of passing overshadows both (combined)

More stats for you im sorry....

Wanyama has played 82 long balls so far this season - 9 less than Dier did last at this stage but 11 more of them accurately. The average length of their long passes is identical at 39 meters

He has also created one more chance so far this season than Dier did in the whole of last.

I am a huge fan of Eric and i do think he is a quality footballer but I think people are underestimating Victors quality and how well he carries out his work.

I am more than comfortable having either of them playing in the DM role.

 

[theShiznit]

More stats for you im sorry....

Wanyama has played 82 long balls so far this season - 9 less than Dier did last at this stage but 11 more of them accurately. The average length of their long passes is identical at 39 meters

He has also created one more chance so far this season than Dier did in the whole of last.

I am a huge fan of Eric and i do think he is a quality footballer but I think people are underestimating Victors quality and how well he carries out his work.

I am more than comfortable having either of them playing in the DM role.

This is where you can get stats to tell you whatever you want to hear.

For the purposes of those stats, what constitutes a "long pass", in the air? forward? or just distance, if the latter, they could all be, passes to Walker, Rose or even Lloris, all along the ground. as I can't remember more than five aerial passes over defenders attempted from Victor (five more than Dembele)
If you think these stats suggest that Wanyama's Range of passing is greater than Dier's then I'll stick to my eyes thanks

 

[dudu]

This is where you can get stats to tell you whatever you want to hear.

For the purposes of those stats, what constitutes a "long pass", in the air? forward? or just distance, if the latter, they could all be, passes to Walker, Rose or even Lloris, all along the ground. as I can't remember more than five aerial passes over defenders attempted from Victor (five more than Dembele)
If you think these stats suggest that Wanyama's Range of passing is greater than Dier's then I'll stick to my eyes thanks

They show what they show. Similar amount of long passes with a similar average distance based on the same criteria.

I don't think I suggested anything other than what I suggested...... Wanyamas range is not as bad as people are suggesting.

 

[Eric_s]

They show what they show. Similar amount of long passes with a similar average distance based on the same criteria.

I don't think I suggested anything other than what I suggested...... Wanyamas range is not as bad as people are suggesting.

I wonder what else can those stats tell other than what they are suppose to tell? How miss leading can they be?

 

[dudu]

I wonder what else can those stats tell other than what they are suppose to tell? How miss leading can they be?

I get what @theShiznit is saying but I could quite easily counter with Dier having more time on the ball to play long passes last season when he dropped into a back 3.

I was just highlighting that Victor is a better passer than people are giving him credit for.

 

[theShiznit]

still none the wiser as to what constitutes a long pass (stats wise)

 

[Bus-Conductor]

We play better with Dier at DM than with Wanyama. Much more smooth and fluid. And that is not up for debate.

Bollocks do we.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

What bothers me about that article is a few points such as this.

"Wanyama is not quite as technically accomplished as Dier, and his passing is not always as quick and incisive, It can slow Spurs down on occasions, but the differences are subtle."

So he isn't as technically accomplished as him and his passing isn't always as quick and incisive (two very important traits in this side and league in general) and it can slow us down but the differences are subtle? I would say that's anything but subtle.

"In fact, the stats show Wanyama rarely wastes a pass. His success rate of 87.8 per cent is only bettered by Mousa Dembele and Harry Winks at Spurs, and it also compares favourably to Dier's 83.3 per cent success rate last season. He may not be quite as adventurous - he certainly makes fewer long passes - but his distribution is generally reliable."

What those stats fail to show is the majority of Wanyama's passes are sidewards and backwards, not difficult to rarely waste a pass when they are all safe passes is it?

The comparison between him and Dier and their pass success rate is void because Dier makes more risky passes, hence why he is a better fit for our creativity going forward.

We miss that adventure from midfield in my opinion and I personally feel Dier is a better overall player than Wanyama but that's just personal opinion, I think Wanyama is a good player but he isn't as good as Dier as a holding mid and he isn't as disciplined.

Of course people will disagree and that's fine, I just wish Poch would rotate them both for different games, they have different skills sets and against the tougher sides like Chelsea, United, City I think Dier would be better suited personally, I don't think it's any shock that we have a worse record so far against the teams above us than last year.

You feel Dier is more adventurous than Wanyama ?

Dier makes more risky passes ? How do you figure that ?

Dier might ping a long diagonal the odd occasion more (which is why I including average pass length) but it's the most overrated pass in football. Much harder to make an incisive pass of 3 yards.

 

[Khilari]

Have to say, when we signed him and I watched some of those YouTube clips, he just came across as a large hulk of a man, with a large turning circle who committed a lot of fouls and got a lot of cards.

Having seen him play at WHL and Wembley this season has been enlightening. He's brilliant at what he does - he runs, chases back and tackles really well. I'm talking about the times he intercepts and also when he brushes opponents off the ball without having to slide. These are the bits of the game that never feature on highlights shows. Yes, he still commits fouls and occasionally is tactically naive, particularly when it's his turn to push forward, but he does bail us out on a number of occasions.

I'm not sure we (Pochettino) has quite uncovered the magical combination to play against different opposition, i.e. who to play next to Wanyama when he does play, but I suspect he's nearly there now. The Wanyama-Dier combo at the start was tough to watch but both were adapting to slightly different roles. And the emergence of Winks as an alternative to Dembele has been refreshing.

So in summary, I think he is underrated and is still improving. He adds a lot to our play that goes unnoticed and is a real asset - a bargain for the price we got him for.

 

[Hazardousman]

You feel Dier is more adventurous than Wanyama ?

Dier makes more risky passes ? How do you figure that ?

View attachment 27657

Dier might ping a long diagonal the odd occasion more (which is why I including average pass length) but it's the most overrated pass in football. Much harder to make an incisive pass of 3 yards.

I do think he plays more risky passes and the stats back that up for example.

Dier makes more forward passes, Wanyama makes more backwards passes as I have already alluded to, which then makes sense Wanyama would have a higher successful pass rate as he is making a higher percentage of passes backwards but notice how that figure is only slightly better than Dier despite the latter making the riskier passes, same goes for pass completion, makes sense it would be higher as Wanyama is passing backwards more.

What's amazing to me is that, for all the talk that Wanyama is better defensively as well you will notice Dier is better at intercepting the ball and actually has a higher assist percentage (albeit small) and when he played 3 at the back and pushed forward more this season he assisted another goal (that chip ball that led to walkers cross.)

Also, Wanyama has already contributed to a defensive error that led directly to a goal, Dier didn't do that once last season according to these stats.

Overall however, the bigger picture for me is how Dier contributes more to the attack by being more disciplined in that role, he doesn't push forward as much, which allows for more space with our attackers however he still contributes to the attack when he needs to.

Wanyama however pushes forward more and leaves gaps, also, it affects the space allowed by our attacking players ahead of him and forces them to track back more when he is out of position.

I think that is the biggest difference.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I do think he plays more risky passes and the stats back that up for example.

Dier makes more forward passes, Wanyama makes more backwards passes as I have already alluded to, which then makes sense Wanyama would have a higher successful pass rate as he is making a higher percentage of passes backwards but notice how that figure is only slightly better than Dier despite the latter making the riskier passes, same goes for pass completion, makes sense it would be higher as Wanyama is passing backwards more.

What's amazing to me is that, for all the talk that Wanyama is better defensively as well you will notice Dier is better at intercepting the ball and actually has a higher assist percentage (albeit small) and when he played 3 at the back and pushed forward more this season he assisted another goal (that chip ball that led to walkers cross.)

Also, Wanyama has already contributed to a defensive error that led directly to a goal, Dier didn't do that once last season according to these stats.

Overall however, the bigger picture for me is how Dier contributes more to the attack by being more disciplined in that role, he doesn't push forward as much, which allows for more space with our attackers however he still contributes to the attack when he needs to.

Wanyama however pushes forward more and leaves gaps, also, it affects the space allowed by our attacking players ahead of him and forces them to track back more when he is out of position.

I think that is the biggest difference.

Dier did cost us goals last season, such as the West Brom game and there were several other incidents throughout the season (starting at ManU away) where it was only luck that his errors didn't get punished. We've also seen him make errors (such as his pass to their player from the RB area a couple of games ago) and cost us goals this season.

If Dier was making riskier passes, why is Wanyama making more incisive passes and creating more chances ? I'll see your 10% more forward passes per game and raise you 50%+ more incisive passes and chances created.

And if Wanyama is compromising us by "leaving gaps" how come we are conceding less goals per game this year than last, despite missing TA (and Dembele some would argue defensively) for a massive chunk ?

Your stats don't really support any argument you are making. Wanyama gives the ball away less than Dier despite being statistically more incisive and creative with his passing (by some margin 50%+), and we are conceding less goals.

 

[NEVILLEB]

Swapping Wanyama for Dier has changed us from a patient, composed and balanced team to a bit of a mess.

One of the worst decisions I've seen Poch make. A shocker.

He's not a bad player at all but Dier was a star last season.

 

[Shadydan]

Swapping Wanyama for Dier has changed us from a patient, composed and balanced team to a bit of a mess.

One of the worst decisions I've seen Poch make. A shocker.

He's not a bad player at all but Dier was a star last season.

lol