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Player Watch: Victor Wanyama

Nigel Spinal

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2015
1,139
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@Nigel Spinal I have no idea what your exact agenda is (whether you know one of our CMs well, are in love with one of our CMs, or indeed are one of them your self), but your posts would quadruple in validity if they weren't so over the top biased.

I just don't like players who can't pass. It seems like a return to the bad old Zokora days

I've been positive about Dendoncker for example, who is allround enough (i.e. can pass as well as defend) to work in our system
 

Caspurs

New Member
May 22, 2016
22
65
Wanyama has shown he can do a competent job in a top level league. Witsel's only ever played in 3rd rate leagues. Wanyama will be 1/3 price and 1/3 of the salary too. I don't rate either, but Wanyama would be the least worse of those two.
Perhaps you should read up on Witsel, as he has attracted the attention of some of the biggest clubs in Europe. My point and maybe it's in the wrong thread, is that the player we should look to have cover for is Dembele not Dier. Witsel can provide genuine competition if not even play alongside Dembele if needed. The concern for a player to cover Dier isn't as urgent, as Verts started as a DM, Wimmer may well be ok as well, so yes Witsel is the type of player I think we should be looking at, someone who can cover Dembele.
 

Nigel Spinal

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2015
1,139
2,477
Perhaps you should read up on Witsel, as he has attracted the attention of some of the biggest clubs in Europe. My point and maybe it's in the wrong thread, is that the player we should look to have cover for is Dembele not Dier. Witsel can provide genuine competition if not even play alongside Dembele if needed. The concern for a player to cover Dier isn't as urgent, as Verts started as a DM, Wimmer may well be ok as well, so yes Witsel is the type of player I think we should be looking at, someone who can cover Dembele.

Witsel's a flat track bully with a decade of uncompetitive football under his belt. He's Paulinho mk2
 

Caspurs

New Member
May 22, 2016
22
65
You clearly don't know much about Witsel then, but hey ho each to our own, we all have varying opinions.
I knew there was a reason I liked you Coopsi, now what was it again......
 

Nigel Spinal

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2015
1,139
2,477
You clearly don't know much about Witsel then, but hey ho each to our own, we all have varying opinions.
I knew there was a reason I liked you Coopsi, now what was it again......

I know about the standard of the Belgian, Portuguese and Russian leagues though.

Do you rate Leigh Griffiths too - he's been imperious this season?
 

Annekcma

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2015
307
647
I know about the standard of the Belgian, Portuguese and Russian leagues though.

Do you rate Leigh Griffiths too - he's been imperious this season?
Griffiths goal tally this year is quite remarkable when you consider how poor the Celtic team was under Deila.

NB, I aint saying we should sign Griffiths!
 

Monkey boy

Well-Known Member
Jun 18, 2011
6,423
17,120
Griffiths goal tally this year is quite remarkable when you consider how poor the Celtic team was under Deila.

NB, I aint saying we should sign Griffiths!

I went to school with a lad called Leigh Griffiths, not THE Leigh Griffiths obviously as that would be too much of a claim to fame.
 

danielneeds

Kick-Ass
May 5, 2004
24,182
48,812
I just don't like players who can't pass. It seems like a return to the bad old Zokora days

I've been positive about Dendoncker for example, who is allround enough (i.e. can pass as well as defend) to work in our system
Christ sake's, Zokora wasn't poor because he couldn't pass, he was poor because he couldn't read the game, and was always caught out of position. Generally he was about as defensively useful as the Maginot Line.

The likes of Davids, Gattuso, even Keane weren't fantastic passers, although Keane was better than many give him credit for, but they knew their jobs. Protect the centre halves, win the ball, give it to someone more attacking. There is still a place for that in football despite all your double pivots, as we saw with the defensive stability we achieved this year with Dier.

I'm not saying Wanyama is as good as the three above, but a a good team is all about having the right balance between power, steel, skill and vision. Especially in midfield.
 
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danielneeds

Kick-Ass
May 5, 2004
24,182
48,812
I know about the standard of the Belgian, Portuguese and Russian leagues though.

Do you rate Leigh Griffiths too - he's been imperious this season?
Blimey you talk a lot of rubbish.

So clearly one should never sign good players who play in shit leagues then? Southampton with Van Dijk, Bayern with Douglas Costa, Leicester with Mahrez being some example off the top of my head disproving such a notion.
 

Nigel Spinal

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2015
1,139
2,477
Christ sake's, Zokora wasn't poor because he couldn't pass, he was poor because he couldn't read the game, and was always caught out of position. Generally he was about as defensively useful as the Maginot Line.

The likes of Davids, Gattuso, even Keane weren't fantastic passers, although Keane was better than many give him credit for, but they knew their jobs. Protect the centre halves, win the ball, give it to someone more attacking. There is still a place for that in football despite all your double pivots, as we saw with the defensive stability we achieved this year with Dier.

I'm not saying Wanyama is as good as the three above, but a a good team is all about having the right balance between power, steel, skill and vision. Especially in midfield.

Dier played the same double pivot position as every other CM for the past 18 months. You can't tell the difference in his heat maps compared to any of Dembele, Mason and Bentaleb. All our CMs now need to be allrounders. There's no room to carry anyone who can't pass.
 

Nigel Spinal

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2015
1,139
2,477
Blimey you talk a lot of rubbish.

So clearly one should never sign good players who play in shit leagues then? Southampton with Van Dijk, Bayern with Douglas Costa, Leicester with Mahrez being some example off the top of my head disproving such a notion.

There's a difference between breaking out of those leagues, and coasting around them, shirking the big leagues, for a decade
 

danielneeds

Kick-Ass
May 5, 2004
24,182
48,812
Dier played the same double pivot position as every other CM for the past 18 months. You can't tell the difference in his heat maps compared to any of Dembele, Mason and Bentaleb. All our CMs now need to be allrounders. There's no room to carry anyone who can't pass.
Rubbish. That's why heat maps only tell part of the story. Dier very rarely breaks beyond the ball. Whereas with the likes of Dembele, Mason and Bentaleb all do because it is part of their strengths, The problem with Mason and Bentaleb is that neither one really wants to sit, it's not natural to them, whereas it is to Dier.
 

danielneeds

Kick-Ass
May 5, 2004
24,182
48,812
There's a difference between breaking out of those leagues, and coasting around them, shirking the big leagues, for a decade
He had little control of the move to Zenit because of third party ownership and the likes of Jorge Mendes. Ill advised as a naive kid, but doesn't make him a bad player.
 

Caspurs

New Member
May 22, 2016
22
65
I know about the standard of the Belgian, Portuguese and Russian leagues though.

Do you rate Leigh Griffiths too - he's been imperious this season?
You clearly want a work horse like Wanyamarama, fair do's, but I think we're in a position to sign better players than him.
 

THFCSPURS19

The Speaker of the Transfer Rumours Forum
Jan 6, 2013
37,891
130,525
So Wanyama 'can't pass', but Eric Dier is an all-rounder who's perfect for our system and can pass.

upload_2016-5-23_17-25-29.png
 

Caspurs

New Member
May 22, 2016
22
65
So Wanyama 'can't pass', but Eric Dier is an all-rounder who's perfect for our system and can pass.

View attachment 23380
Why are people so concerned about backup for Dier? Shirley Dembele is the position we need to be concerned about, as we have potential cover for Dier i.e. Wimmer or Verts. The last two games showed us how important Demebele is, as well as the stats of coarse.
 

Everlasting Seconds

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2014
14,914
26,616
I just don't like players who can't pass. It seems like a return to the bad old Zokora days

I've been positive about Dendoncker for example, who is allround enough (i.e. can pass as well as defend) to work in our system
I think Dendocker is exactly as poor at passing as any other alternative for the Dier role. And truth is, we need one extremely good destroyer and one good passer in the CM2, not to guys who are equally average at everything.

So Wanyama 'can't pass', but Eric Dier is an all-rounder who's perfect for our system and can pass.

View attachment 23380
Lord knows I'm a big believer in stats about pass accuracy, but in this specific case, that stat isn't really showing us any info beyond the fact that both players have equally high (or in my view equally low) pass accuracy. When we talk about "a good passer" to me, that is about far more than only the accuracy. A good passer needs to not only have accurate passes, but also incisive, chance creating passes. That's what both Dier and Wanyama are equally not good at. Now, if your point is that neither Dier nor Wanyama is specifically good passers, you are of course very correct. But there are more factors to that than only the accuracy in %. Not that the passing really matters for this position in the squad (see above).

Why are people so concerned about backup for Dier? Shirley Dembele is the position we need to be concerned about, as we have potential cover for Dier i.e. Wimmer or Verts. The last two games showed us how important Demebele is, as well as the stats of coarse.
Ehm ... not sure if you are serious? We could arguably do with two new different CMs, but in our entire squad, only Dier can do what Dier does. We have nobody else who can come close to do the job Dier solved this season. We may maybe have somebody who can slot in for Dembele. Maybe. But not at all for Dier.
 
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