Player Watch: Victor Wanyama

[yido_number1]

So Wanyama 'can't pass', but Eric Dier is an all-rounder who's perfect for our system and can pass.

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This stat doesn't account for range of passing merely passes executed. If Dier is playing quicker balls, longer more accurate passes or even attempting a more expansive game that isn't picked up in that stat. I'm sure you could argue are Cb's have better passing percentage than both Wanyama and Dier.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

This stat doesn't account for range of passing merely passes executed. If Dier is playing quicker balls, longer more accurate passes or even attempting a more expansive game that isn't picked up in that stat. I'm sure you could argue are Cb's have better passing percentage than both Wanyama and Dier.

Average Pass length is about the same.

I think Dendocker is exactly as poor at passing as any other alternative for the Dier role. And truth is, we need one extremely good destroyer and one good passer in the CM2, not to guys who are equally average at everything.


Lord knows I'm a big believer in stats about pass accuracy, but in this specific case, that stat isn't really showing us any info beyond the fact that both players have equally high (or in my view equally low) pass accuracy. When we talk about "a good passer" to me, that is about far more than only the accuracy. A good passer needs to not only have accurate passes, but also incisive, chance creating passes. That's what both Dier and Wanyama are equally not good at. Now, if your point is that neither Dier nor Wanyama is specifically good passers, you are of course very correct. But there are more factors to that than only the accuracy in %. Not that the passing really matters for this position in the squad (see above).


Ehm ... not sure if you are serious? We could arguably do with two new different CMs, but in our entire squad, only Dier can do what Dier does. We have nobody else who can come close to do the job Dier solved this season. We may maybe have somebody who can slot in for Dembele. Maybe. But not at all for Dier.

What I posted was in response to the claim that Wanyama can't pass but Dier is an all-rounder who can pass. In reality, their passing ability is relatively equal.

 

[danielneeds]

Why are people so concerned about backup for Dier? Shirley Dembele is the position we need to be concerned about, as we have potential cover for Dier i.e. Wimmer or Verts. The last two games showed us how important Demebele is, as well as the stats of coarse.

There's no doubt DIer started to look fatigued in the run-in. He played pretty much every league game, a fair amount of all the cup games too. Verts won't play in midfield now, and I doubt Wimmer will too.

Agree we need another option for Dembele too, but holding options are still needed.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Why are people so concerned about backup for Dier? Shirley Dembele is the position we need to be concerned about, as we have potential cover for Dier i.e. Wimmer or Verts. The last two games showed us how important Demebele is, as well as the stats of coarse.

A case can be made for buying a back-up for Dembele and Dier. Personally I think Bentaleb can be a very good Dembele back-up, but Bentaleb's merits shouldn't really be discussed in here.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Average Pass length is about the same.


What I posted was in response to the claim that Wanyama can't pass but Dier is an all-rounder who can pass. In reality, their passing ability is relatively equal.

Absolutely; I agree. Wanyama and Dier are almost statistical twins. The misconception in question is probably that Dier is such an all-rounder. He is not. And that's a good thing, it doesn't seem to me that all-rounders flourish in Pochettino's system.

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

Absolutely; I agree. Wanyama and Dier are almost statistical twins. The misconception in question is probably that Dier is such an all-rounder. He is not. And that's a good thing, it doesn't seem to me that all-rounders flourish in Pochettino's system.

What about Dembele? Would you not call him an all-rounder mate?

 

[Japhet]

This stat doesn't account for range of passing merely passes executed. If Dier is playing quicker balls, longer more accurate passes or even attempting a more expansive game that isn't picked up in that stat. I'm sure you could argue are Cb's have better passing percentage than both Wanyama and Dier.

I also think Dier is a better passer than he's given credit for. To say he 'can't pass' is ridiculous. Stats on this type of stuff are very misleading. I'm certain Lloris has the highest percentage of forward passes but it doesn't make him more creative than Eriksen. Bentaleb probably has great passing stats because he invariably plays a 3 yard pass straight back to where he got it from. Dier attempts some ambitious stuff that doesn't come off but I'd rather watch that than endless side to side or round and round in circles garbage we've had from 'better passers' in the past.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

What about Dembele? Would you not call him an all-rounder mate?

OK, may I should change it to saying that playing two allrounders at the same time doesn't really work.

 

[danielneeds]

OK, may I should change it to saying that playing two allrounders at the same time doesn't really work.

That's the key thing. Dembele has had the freedom to express himself this season because he knows Dier is always behind him, filling in. Not that Dembele isn't a tremendous defensive player too, but he can take more risks positionally with a proper holder.

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

OK, may I should change it to saying that playing two allrounders at the same time doesn't really work.

Yes, yes you should

 

[Caspurs]

There's no doubt DIer started to look fatigued in the run-in. He played pretty much every league game, a fair amount of all the cup games too. Verts won't play in midfield now, and I doubt Wimmer will too.

Agree we need another option for Dembele too, but holding options are still needed.

Why won't Verts play in midfield or Wimmer. Vets started his career there, Wimmer is in the same mould as Dier, so I don't see to much of an issue, considering what everyone was saying about Dier at the beginning of the season.
We don't have a player in the same mould as Dembele, know where near. So my point is which is the more vulnerable position when said player is out?
Hot dikety dang you know i'm right.........

 

[Sweech]

Lord knows I'm a big believer in stats about pass accuracy, but in this specific case, that stat isn't really showing us any info beyond the fact that both players have equally high (or in my view equally low) pass accuracy. When we talk about "a good passer" to me, that is about far more than only the accuracy. A good passer needs to not only have accurate passes, but also incisive, chance creating passes. That's what both Dier and Wanyama are equally not good at. Now, if your point is that neither Dier nor Wanyama is specifically good passers, you are of course very correct. But there are more factors to that than only the accuracy in %. Not that the passing really matters for this position in the squad (see above).
.

Avg pass length is just narrowly higher for Wanyama.

Wanyama also has more chances created and more key passes per minute than Dier.

Dier does edge Wanyama on forward passes per minute.

Defensively Wanyama also makes more interceptions and quite a lot more tackles per minute than Dier.

Edit - You got a problem @Caspurs?

 

[danielneeds]

Why won't Verts play in midfield or Wimmer. Vets started his career there, Wimmer is in the same mould as Dier, so I don't see to much of an issue, considering what everyone was saying about Dier at the beginning of the season.
We don't have a player in the same mould as Dembele, know where near. So my point is which is the more vulnerable position when said player is out?
Hot dikety dang you know i'm right.........

Vertonghen is a senior player now and he whinged enough about playing LB. He won't want to go there and won't be moved. Wimmer is a bit less mobile than Dier and I can't see him playing midfield, but you never know, stranger things have happened.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Avg pass length is just narrowly higher for Wanyama.

Wanyama also has more chances created and more key passes per minute than Dier.

Dier does edge Wanyama on forward passes per minute.

Defensively Wanyama also makes more interceptions and quite a lot more tackles per minute than Dier.

You must be referring to margins surely? A couple of passes a season in difference? Guess it depends on how you define key passes. Point being, passing is not what I would say is the attribute of either one of them. And it doesn't have to be to fit in.

 

[Sweech]

You must be referring to margins surely? A couple of passes a season in difference? Guess it depends on how you define key passes. Point being, passing is not what I would say is the attribute of either one of them. And it doesn't have to be to fit in.

Yeah, the margins are small considering neither of them are that brilliant creatively. Just stating Wanyama is slightly more so.

Just to add stats to the argument "Wanyama can't pass", well maybe we don't need him to be much more than what Dier is and if that's the case it looks like he can do the role no problem.

 

[danielneeds]

Yeah, the margins are small considering neither of them are that brilliant creatively. Just stating Wanyama is slightly more so.

Stats don't tell you that Dier has had Dembele who he knows he can give the ball to even if both are being heavily pressured, safe in the knowledge that Mousa can get out of trouble. Having that sort of out ball is priceless.

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

Why won't Verts play in midfield or Wimmer. Vets started his career there, Wimmer is in the same mould as Dier, so I don't see to much of an issue, considering what everyone was saying about Dier at the beginning of the season.
We don't have a player in the same mould as Dembele, know where near. So my point is which is the more vulnerable position when said player is out?
Hot dikety dang you know i'm right.........

Jan Vertonghen turned down a move to Arsenal after hearing that Arsene Wenger wanted to deploy him in midfield, the Tottenham player has revealed.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...l-after-talks-with-arsene-wenger-8413412.html

 

[Sweech]

Stats don't tell you that Dier has had Dembele who he knows he can give the ball to even if both are being heavily pressured, safe in the knowledge that Mousa can get out of trouble. Having that sort of out ball is priceless.

Sure, although for any who watch Wanyama they'll see he may not have Dembele's dribbling ability, but he does have the immense strength to turn and hold players off when under pressure. That's a skill Dier could look to continue developing.

 

[dagraham]

Why are people so concerned about backup for Dier? Shirley Dembele is the position we need to be concerned about, as we have potential cover for Dier i.e. Wimmer or Verts. The last two games showed us how important Demebele is, as well as the stats of coarse.

Maybe in theory, but I've never seen either play that role and the fact that Poch seems interested in Wanyama suggests he sees them as CB's only.

I agree Dembele is a huge miss, but I would suggest Bentaleb is better suited to play that role if he can recover his fitness and realise his talent.

The fact remains that currently Dier is the only midfielder we have with any defensive instincts, so unless we are going to sign a superb all round midfielder ( who's going to cost a shit load of money) who can protect the back four and be a true playmaker then I don't think Wanyama is a bad option at all.

 

[Caspurs]

What about Dembele? Would you not call him an all-rounder mate?

Are you saying our Dembers is fat! How dare you, he's just well built.